Pathway for Youth.

[coolhandluke]

How many youngsters turn down contracts from elsewhere because they want to stay with us?

It's a really easy one - none, ever. They look after themselves, as should we.

Why anyone would put any weight whatsoever on bringing youth through, for the sake, of it is beyond me.

The academy is a failed project that has sold everything it's generated for nothing more than to pay for its own existence, serving to do nothing else than piss just about everyone off when it happens. Time, and time, and time again.

UTB

So in other words ..... it works . Or how can you have a ' failed project ' that consistenly produces talent other clubs buy ??? If it was a failed project we wouldn't sell anyone from there

Don't forget to mention the first class training facilities for the first team too . Or do you think it should be back to " coats for goal posts " back up at the Ball Inn ???

 

[BushBlade]

Given our size, we can only have one priority: promotion. Diluting that with any other goals is foolish. The academy seems to pay for itself with sales and provides good facilities for the first team. That's all we need right now. We can look at developing young players when we're an established championship side again and need to find smart ways of competing against clubs with huge parachute payments, by developing our own kids and finding promising players from the lower leagues.
If Brooks, Semple, Whiteman or any of the others force their way through, it's a bonus.

 

[coolhandluke]

Given our size, we can only have one priority: promotion. Diluting that with any other goals is foolish. The academy seems to pay for itself with sales and provides good facilities for the first team. That's all we need right now. We can look at developing young players when we're an established championship side again and need to find smart ways of competing against clubs with huge parachute payments, by developing our own kids and finding promising players from the lower leagues.
If Brooks, Semple, Whiteman or any of the others force their way through, it's a bonus.

I agree with what you are saying there Bush . The only slight disagreement I would have is a matter of pedantry .

Basically the academy must produce talent regardless of what Division we ply our trade in .

As you correctly posit though, what we actually do with the talent produced depends very heavily upon what Division we are in .

Sadly , whilst we are languishing in league 1 we will sell virtually all of the talent we produce . Go a Division higher and we may keep the majority of talent produced . Get to the PL and we'll undoubtedly keep the majority .

2 things to think about if you are an academy basher though . Firstly , during our only spell in the PL since the Academies inception which academy product dId we sell ? And secondly , do you genuinely believe we will never sell academy players whatever division we are in ...... seriously ?

 

[Silent Blade]

I agree with what you are saying there Bush . The only slight disagreement I would have is a matter of pedantry .

Basically the academy must produce talent regardless of what Division we ply our trade in .

As you correctly posit though, what we actually do with the talent produced depends very heavily upon what Division we are in .

Sadly , whilst we are languishing in league 1 we will sell virtually all of the talent we produce . Go a Division higher and we may keep the majority of talent produced . Get to the PL and we'll undoubtedly keep the majority .

2 things to think about if you are an academy basher though . Firstly , during our only spell in the PL since the Academies inception which academy product dId we sell ? And secondly , do you genuinely believe we will never sell the cream of the crop from the Academy if we aren't in the PL ...... seriously ?

Dont think you understand that the EPPP has seriously affected our academy in the last few years. Many of our best talent between the ages of 9 and 16 have gone to PL clubs for very little compensation.

Our Academy is Category 2 and not as good as it was before the PL forced the EPPP

 

[BushBlade]

I agree with what you are saying there Bush . The only slight disagreement I would have is a matter of pedantry .

Basically the academy must produce talent regardless of what Division we ply our trade in .

As you correctly posit though, what we actually do with the talent produced depends very heavily upon what Division we are in .

Sadly , whilst we are languishing in league 1 we will sell virtually all of the talent we produce . Go a Division higher and we may keep the majority of talent produced . Get to the PL and we'll undoubtedly keep the majority .

2 things to think about if you are an academy basher though . Firstly , during our only spell in the PL since the Academies inception which academy product dI'd we sell ? And secondly , do you genuinely believe we will never sell the cream of the crop from the Academy if we aren't in the PL ...... seriously ?

I'm not an academy basher. Quite the opposite. I'm in favour of it but I think comments about where's the pathway for youth are either ignoring our current situation or are posted to try to create a controversy that isn't there.

When we go up we can probably afford to go back to being a Cat 1 academy which means it's harder for other academies to poach our players and easier to attract the better young players. There will be less of a demand for immediate promotion so we can spend more time developing the promising kids into first team players, like the smaller clubs in L1 do, and with the option of loaning them to decent L1 clubs where they can learn their trade at a decent level.

And, as you say, we'll have a better chance of keeping them and when we don't, we'll get big money for them that we can reinvest in the first team.

 

[bornablade]

So in other words ..... it works . Or how can you have a ' failed project ' that consistenly produces talent other clubs buy ??? If it was a failed project we wouldn't sell anyone from there

Don't forget to mention the first class training facilities for the first team too . Or do you think it should be back to " coats for goal posts " back up at the Ball Inn ???

We certainly don't want to return to 'coats for goalposts up at the Ball Inn' and end up producing another Badger or a Woodward or a Jones or ......

 

[Dnblade]

I like the look of Brooks and Whiteman..I think these 2 will make the step up...Reed unfortunately seems to be finding it hard,and not really progressed...not given up on him,but Whiteman looks the more likely of the 2.
Forced myself to scan through the Walsall Mickey mouse cup game..I wouldn't attend as I detest it's current guise with the Pram B teams..but interested and sad enough to have a look at how we performed i had a look through on BP...Don't know if any one noticed the move involving the 2 young lads, but Whiteman received the ball off Bad,turned and played a lovely ball inside the Full Back for Brooks down the right..he than squared it to the near post but Done got blocked out as he tried to finish it...I thought if only we could see that from Bash...anyway that was about the only thing I took from it along with we were far better with Coutts and Freeman on.

 

[coolhandluke]

We certainly don't want to return to 'coats for goalposts up at the Ball Inn' and end up producing another Badger or a Woodward or a Jones or ......

Ah , the good old days when home grown talent only ever went to home grown Clubs .

Just cos we havent got a match today though , how about this ..... The Academy has produced better footballers than the players you've mentioned .

Lights blue touch paper ......

 

[alcoblade]

So in other words ..... it works . Or how can you have a ' failed project ' that consistenly produces talent other clubs buy ??? If it was a failed project we wouldn't sell anyone from there

Don't forget to mention the first class training facilities for the first team too . Or do you think it should be back to " coats for goal posts " back up at the Ball Inn ???

Yes, its ability to sell things to pay for itself is "impressive". Whoopie fucking doo.

I have an ever so slight suspicion that training facilities and academies can be seperated.

Of course, over the last 15 years we'd have been robbed of the opportunity to see one centre back progress on the field, for two whole years.


"Ironside......Ironside....."

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Dont think you understand that the EPPP has seriously affected our academy in the last few years. Many of our best talent between the ages of 9 and 16 have gone to PL clubs for very little compensation.

Our Academy is Category 2 and not as good as it was before the PL forced the EPPP

Some people just don't want to see it. The tears in their eyes just blind them.

UTB

 

[coolhandluke]

Yes, its ability to sell things to pay for itself is "impressive". Whoopie fucking doo.

I have an ever so slight suspicion that training facilities and academies can be seperated.

Of course, over the last 15 years we'd have been robbed of the opportunity to see one centre back progress on the field.

UTB

It's done a fair bit more than " pay for itself " . The academy pumps much needed cash into the club at a time when we are desperate for it . We are in the proverbial now ..... imagine how much worse it could have been without the Academy cash lifeline .

As for the training facilities not necessarily needing the Academy . Are you being serious ? 5 million plus on a state of the art training facility when a year or so previous we hadn't been able to pay the coach company to take the first team for a match ..... think about it . I'd also hazard a guess that we'd have never even got the planning permission to put the facilities where they are now if the development wasn't linked with the academy . Sheffield city council do have a bit if a track record with us and planning permision you know !

Sad to say though alco .... while ever we are languishing in league 1 we'll be selling even more talent from the academy . Whoopi fuckin do indeed for League 1 reality

 

[8lade]

Wouldn't feel so bad? Does anyone feel bad? I've spoken to people out there in the real world and the cumulative view amounts to less than half a fuck!

Personally I'd field a team full of Under 11s with seven Labrador pups on the bench.

I'll see the people you've spoken to and raise you 2,500 people who paid to see the match and Chris Wilder.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The only issue I have regarding the inclusion of youth is whether we are managing our finances optimally. I think there’s a case to say one or two youths might be able to provide the cover that certain squad players currently are. Perhaps we didn’t need Chapman for example as we have Brooks. By making those savings by not signing bench players and instead using the youth as cover, we might be able to invest slightly more heavily in the first team whilst also developing the youth we have who in turn might become good enough to play regularly in the first team. It’s a fine balancing act. But the priority is promotion and our recent form (5 wins and 2 draw from 7) is promotion form so I don’t think we have too many complaints at the moment. If we don’t keep that up, we might have to re-consider whether the balance is right.

 

[alcoblade]

It's done a fair bit more than " pay for itself " . The academy pumps much needed cash into the club at a time when we are desperate for it . We are in the proverbial now ..... imagine how much worse it could have been without the Academy cash lifeline .

As for the training facilities not necessarily needing the Academy . Are you being serious ? 5 million plus on a state of the art training facility when a year or so previous we hadn't been able to pay the coach company to take the first team for a match ..... think about it . I'd also hazard a guess that we'd have never even got the planning permission to put the facilities where they are now if the development wasn't linked with the academy . Sheffield city council do have a bit if a track record with us and planning permision you know !

Sad to say though alco .... while ever we are languishing in league 1 we'll be selling even more talent from the academy . Whoopi fuckin do indeed for League 1 reality

And this is where we have to leave it, because none of us know.

I'd be amazed if the academy has paid for itself up to now. I'd be certain it won't in future, as it is now.

The training facility and the academy are not inextricably linked, so I don't understand this point.

UTB

 

[Silent Blade]

The Academy has produced better footballers than the players you've mentioned .

How many top division games have players from our Academy (since it started in 2001- dont include Monty, Jags and Tonge as they werent products from our Academy) have made?

From this youth squad in 1964 alone the players have played over 2000 top division games. Mick Jones won a League champions medal twice, won a UEFA Cup medal twice, won the FA Cup

 

[Silent Blade]

It's done a fair bit more than " pay for itself " . The academy pumps much needed cash into the club at a time when we are desperate for it . We are in the proverbial now ..... imagine how much worse it could have been without the Academy cash lifeline .

Where's the evidence?? You are definitely making things up!

 

[BushBlade]

The only issue I have regarding the inclusion of youth is whether we are managing our finances optimally. I think there’s a case to say one or two youths might be able to provide the cover that certain squad players currently are. Perhaps we didn’t need Chapman for example as we have Brooks. By making those savings by not signing bench players and instead using the youth as cover, we might be able to invest slightly more heavily in the first team whilst also developing the youth we have who in turn might become good enough to play regularly in the first team. It’s a fine balancing act. But the priority is promotion and our recent form (5 wins and 2 draw from 7) is promotion form so I don’t think we have too many complaints at the moment. If we don’t keep that up, we might have to re-consider whether the balance is right.

But perhaps Chapman is a different type of player to Brooks?
And which other players have we brought in as cover play in a position where there was already a promising youth? Wilson? CW said he didn't think Semple is ready yet (he's already playing at U23 level at a young age) and CH is a position you don't want to take too many risks with.

 

[coolhandluke]

Where's the evidence?? You are definitely making things up!

Sorry silent .... I forgot , McCabe pockets all surplus cash at the Lane .

Silly me

 

[alcoblade]

Sorry silent .... I forgot , McCabe pockets all surplus cash at the Lane .

Silly me

He doesn't, he puts lots of money in to pay for the upkeep, a big chunk being the academy.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

The only issue I have regarding the inclusion of youth is whether we are managing our finances optimally. I think there’s a case to say one or two youths might be able to provide the cover that certain squad players currently are. Perhaps we didn’t need Chapman for example as we have Brooks. By making those savings by not signing bench players and instead using the youth as cover, we might be able to invest slightly more heavily in the first team whilst also developing the youth we have who in turn might become good enough to play regularly in the first team. It’s a fine balancing act. But the priority is promotion and our recent form (5 wins and 2 draw from 7) is promotion form so I don’t think we have too many complaints at the moment. If we don’t keep that up, we might have to re-consider whether the balance is right.

With the new loan rules that 'balancing act' is even more critical as cover for injuries can no longer be added other than in January so the manager has to play safe on the numbers.

Releasing so many players last summer meant we had to import so many new faces and the young lads will be disappointed they have not become more involved in the first team in those circumstances. However as a few say above, Wilder is under pressure for results in the short term and that's part of managing a bigger club.

Results are better than performances of late and I expect most of our new signings to improve considerably, otherwise a couple of young lads will get game time before long.

 

[larkymasher]

But perhaps Chapman is a different type of player to Brooks?
And which other players have we brought in as cover play in a position where there was already a promising youth? Wilson? CW said he didn't think Semple is ready yet (he's already playing at U23 level at a young age) and CH is a position you don't want to take too many risks with.

Not really i understand the reference to young Semple.

Semple plays in a position that CW cant risk him over a full season. He has been made captain of the 23s as part of his development. He plays no under 18s games as it is not a high enough standard. Maybe will play for 18s in youth cup. CW has now introduced him to the bench to give him experience and daily training with the first team.
To me they are developing a young player to bring into the first team when they feel he is ready. Wilson/ Wright have 2 year deals which means there is a clear plan to have Semple in the squad when those two contracts have finished. At that point Semple will be 19 years old.

Sounds like good management in my book.

 

[coolhandluke]

He doesn't, he puts lots of money in to pay for the upkeep, a big chunk being the academy.

UTB

And how does the Academy cost to run ?

I'm asking you this even though you've already stated the academy pays it's own way .

 

[Pinchy]

I'll see the people you've spoken to and raise you 2,500 people who paid to see the match and Chris Wilder.

2,500 (and that speaks volumes in itself) who should know better and one who can scarcely say otherwise.

The overwhelming majority of Blades could not care less. Many, including me, want nothing to do with this absurd competition and are glad we're out.

 

[alcoblade]

I haven't said it pays its own way, I've said we sell players to cover the cost. In itself that wasn't a judgement of the balance of codys, either way.

But can you reword your post - you clearly can't be asking me how it costs us to run an academy?

UTB

 

[Pinchy]

How many top division games have players from our Academy (since it started in 2001- dont include Monty, Jags and Tonge as they werent products from our Academy) have made?

From this youth squad in 1964 alone the players have played over 2000 top division games. Mick Jones won a League champions medal twice, won a UEFA Cup medal twice, won the FA Cup

Absolutely. I considered a response to Luke myself but I paused and realised that his statement was such self-evident bollocks that none was necessary.

 

[finlaytheblade]

I don't agree with that Woody although I respect your point. If our own young players are good enough then they should be first choice- I'm totally with you on that. Our manager obviously feels they aren't there yet and I trust him to be right about that. After all it would make no sense to bring others in if they were and I'm sure Wilder doesn't want to spend money unnecessarily if we've got better inside the club already.

A team of Kids won't get us out of this league- it has to be a blend of youth and experience. I don't see any evidence that the pathway to youth is being blocked tbh and I think by the end of this season young Brooks will prove that.

Not really i understand the reference to young Semple.

Semple plays in a position that CW cant risk him over a full season. He has been made captain of the 23s as part of his development. He plays no under 18s games as it is not a high enough standard. Maybe will play for 18s in youth cup. CW has now introduced him to the bench to give him experience and daily training with the first team.
To me they are developing a young player to bring into the first team when they feel he is ready. Wilson/ Wright have 2 year deals which means there is a clear plan to have Semple in the squad when those two contracts have finished. At that point Semple will be 19 years old.

Sounds like good management in my book.

Most young players have to be groomed as you elude too Larkymasher,and we have a few of those who are kmocking on the door of the 1st team.
None are really ready for regular 1st team footy as yet ( too much too soon can have a detrimental effect ) maturity is a big word in football and the manager has to assess when the time is right. Some fly from the off but these are rare and tend to lose there way for a time.
We can all talk about great young players ( D Law, G Best, TC and others and there are a few around now ) these stars are really gifted players and
don't come along that often. 16 &17 year old is very young to play regular 1st team football ,we have to be patient with some of the young lads coming through.

 

[coolhandluke]

And this is where we have to leave it, because none of us know.

I'd be amazed if the academy has paid for itself up to now. I'd be certain it won't in future, as it is now.

The training facility and the academy are not inextricably linked, so I don't understand this point.

UTB

The Academy has more than paid for itself alco . Do the math . I'll stand corrected but the figure I have for running the academy and the facilities is 1 million .

And whilst the training facilities and the academy aren't inextricably linked , I still stand by my assertion that at the point of inception we would have never have spent the same sum on just training facilities . And there isn't a cat in hells chance wed have been granted permission to build the facilities if we hadn't have linked the two .

The Academy is money incredibly well spent .

 

[coolhandluke]

How many top division games have players from our Academy (since it started in 2001- dont include Monty, Jags and Tonge as they werent products from our Academy) have made?

From this youth squad in 1964 alone the players have played over 2000 top division games. Mick Jones won a League champions medal twice, won a UEFA Cup medal twice, won the FA Cup

Jags monty and Tonge are products of our Academy .

And how many England internationals are in the youth squad you mention ?

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

Most young players have to be groomed as you elude too Larkymasher,and we have a few of those who are kmocking on the door of the 1st team.
None are really ready for regular 1st team footy as yet ( too much too soon can have a detrimental effect ) maturity is a big word in football and the manager has to assess when the time is right. Some fly from the off but these are rare and tend to lose there way for a time.
We can all talk about great young players ( D Law, G Best, TC and others and there are a few around now ) these stars are really gifted players and
don't come along that often. 16 &17 year old is very young to play regular 1st team football ,we have to be patient with some of the young lads coming through.

If your opening statement is correct I`ll be amazed if we have ana academy at all by Christmas!

 

[alcoblade]

The Academy has more than paid for itself alco . Do the math . I'll stand corrected but the figure I have for running the academy and the facilities is 1 million .

And whilst the training facilities and the academy aren't inextricably linked , I still stand by my assertion that at the point of inception we would have never have spent the same sum on just training facilities . And there isn't a cat in hells chance wed have been granted permission to build the facilities if we hadn't have linked the two .

The Academy is money incredibly well spent .

We can both apply cost guesstimates all day.


Objectively, since its' inception we've fallen to the lowest period in the club's history and spent a decade moaning about selling players and pathways for youth from the academy, whilst on the positive side enjoying the progress of Harry Maguire for a year or two.

It's nothing short of fucking pathetic.

UTB