Ownership, diminishing returns & the future of SUFC

[derfblade.3]

What we need to remember is that things can change very quickly with a few good results and threads like this will become meaningless.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Playing devils advocate here, but we have spent 130m in the last 3 windows, agree the wage structure hasn't changed much, but I believe this is for the better short term.

If you was princey, considering what's been served up since Jan (we've spent 70m in that period) would you be willing to part with even more cash? I wouldn't.

If the funding is coming from the club/bank then he's not parting with his own cash (I know he's the owner so technically he is) he's just signing off the spend of the clubs money on transfers/wages. The nature of a football club is that he'll have to approve some more bi-annually so unless he's saying that he doesn't trust Wilder I don't see him changing his strategy, the amount spent will diminish though because as you say we've spent a lot recently.

 

[BushBlade]

Playing devils advocate here, but we have spent 130m in the last 3 windows, agree the wage structure hasn't changed much, but I believe this is for the better short term.

If you was princey, considering what's been served up since Jan (we've spent 70m in that period) would you be willing to part with even more cash? I wouldn't.

Well if you’re not prepared to pay the wages that good players demand you shouldn’t be surprised if the players you do sign aren’t as good. And £130m is a lot of money in most cases but not when it comes to the PL.

PA has three options, all could cost him money

1. Not spend anymore and risk relegation, the subsequent devaluation of the club and the possibility that, if we don’t go up within three years, he has to sell the club or find £10m a year to keep us competitive.

2. Give Wilder more money. There’s still a risk of relegation but it’s reduced.

3. Replace Wilder with another manager, pay off Wilder and his staff and find some money for the signings another manager wants. Because no decent manager would join us unless he could make some signings.

It’s not a great choice really, particularly when you’re not a billionaire who can just chuck money at the club.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Decisions such as

• Do you plough more money into the team, even though the last 150m hasn't been a massive success?
• Do you stick with a manager that has not won a game in the last 10 PL games
• Do you start looking at selling some of your biggest assets to help balance the books if we go down

They're all the decisions the board/chairman/owner has to make, and are all decisions that affect the future of the football club.

I'm not saying any of these decisions need making right now but in future, they might.

But aren’t the answers to your questions obvious?

1: The Prince has said he’ll fully support Wilder as much as possible. He‘s explained they agree a pre-season budget
He’s joked that Wilder often comes back later wanting additional sum more than the agreed budget. The Prince said he always tries his best to give Wilder what he wants. However the Prince is a business man and obviously the club can’t build up massive debts.

2: The Prince has always said he’s a massive fan of Wilder.
Logic suggests that apart from the 2nd half against Fulham....there’s no need to worry yet.
A quirk is we’ve played many of the best teams so far...Wilder needs to be judged when we play the bottom half teams.

3: Every club looks to sell off their best players if it looks likely they will be relegated.
It’s common sense and normal business principles but it‘s far too early to think that way.

 

[Kev Gee]

I don't think Wilder should be sacked but if I was PA I would be asking questions around how the transfer funds have been used and why we are not exploring options abroad as we are paying a premium for top end Championship players.

 

[Upton_Blade]

Conversely, the Prince could decide to make Wilders job for easier, by improving the wage structure and making more funds available for future transfers.

I may be wrong but I've always got the impression that it's CW not The Prince who manages the wage bill as he holds squad harmony above almost everything else and isn't prepared to smash the wage structure if it will have a negative effect on squad harmony. There were rumours a while back that PA wanted a real marquee signing to establish his ownership credentials. Who's to say CW didn't talk him out of it?

3. Replace Wilder with another manager, pay off Wilder and his staff and find some money for the signings another manager wants. Because no decent manager would join us unless he could make some signings.

If CW was to walk or, god forbid, be sacked I'd put everything I own on Van Winkel being installed as manager within 24 hours.

I don't think Wilder should be sacked but if I was PA I would be asking questions around how the transfer funds have been used and why we are not exploring options abroad as we are paying a premium for top end Championship players.

I think we can have this conversation without it turning into a "questioning CW" type argument just by looking at the facts. It's a fact that we have spent a lot of money since promotion. It's also a fact that in general it doesn't appear that money has been spent that well so far (some of the signings may come good). I'd also wager as fact we could have got better value for money by looking abroad but CW puts so much into what a players character is like. This is fine to an extent but means overpaying for average domestic players.

Moose - £10m - Jury still out but doesn't look promising.
McB - £18m - Jury still out, may come good.
Freeman - £6m - I'd have kept him but failed.
Robinson - £7m - Failed
Berge - £22m - Based on promise and improvement, good signing.
Brewster - £23m - Unknown so far.
Ramsdale - £18m - Shaky start, good signing.
Osbourne - £3m - Based on price, good signing.
Robinson - £1m - Based on price, OK signing.
Bogle - £6m - Unknown so far.
Lowe - £4m - Looks OK so far but not enough to ascertain yet.

Based on the above if you were PA and CW kept coming back and asking for more and more money would you not start to question him?

 

[ThatJa]

Can't answer as I stopped reading your posts.
Youve a record of popping up when things aren't going well.
You're basically fucking boring and a bit of a troll in my book.

What about all the posts I made when things were going well? You missed them, probably.

 

[ThatJa]

If that’s a reference to securely live (not sure which one he is associated with) I have to say in fairness that whilst not perfect it has generally worked very well for me.

I'm not associated with any now. I was doing Facebook streams, but that's where it ended.

 

[Foody]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I still think Wilder needs help with premier league transfers. Clearly our scouting network needs a lot of development, and I feel he needs some help with this.
Looking at our last few transfers, especially strikers, it would appear that we become so focused on one specific player that we end up overpaying. We don't utilise foreign markets, the only dome we have has produced what is arguably our best player.

Wilder might not like it, he probably won't want to surrender any control, but this is where the chairman needs to step up and manage the situation.

 

[Mercedes]

First things first, this is not a Chris Wilder out thread, nor will it ever be, from me.

Prince won the battle of ownership in the middle of arguably the greatest period in our history, 2 promotions within 3 years, fans and club connection back stronger than ever and its all good, what a time to be a Blade.

Success (depending on how you view success) never lasts forever, and every single football club on the planet goes through a spell of months, years, even decades without success (you can go back to the Chelsea's, Man United's, Arsenal's etc). Prince upon winning the battle he won it at a time where he would really have to do something outrageous to balls it all up, and of course he is definitely not to blame for the 10 game winless run, far from it, I've been very impressed with his running of the club so far.

Looking onto the future though, his decisions will be key for the direction the club goes in, he's backed Chris Wilder, who's been very vocal and on numerous occasions has said he would walk should he not be backed, but there may become a time where the Prince needs to say no to XXX players because of track record, where would that leave Chris? Would he walk? (this is an example scenario)

It is now his most important period in charge of this Football club for Prince Abdullah, his decisions moving forward are decisions that Chairmen will always get praised for when its correct but absolutely slated when its not. Look at our neighbours, Chansiri came in and was loved for 2 years (couldn't do no wrong) but decisions since then have made him an enemy within their fan base. I would definitely like to think Prince Abdullah knows a lot more football than the one across the City, and fortunately for us in his interviews, he seems like a football guy.

Having said that, it does still worry me.

This is the premier league as we know it now clubs owned by Countries or oligarchs the present climate to say a 20+ million pound player is average is madness but true so Chris's job is even harder to find a player say what you like regarding K McCabe he did a tremendous job his record speaks for itself will the Prince be on a par only time will tell
As for Chris and his team he's the best thing to happen to Sheffield United for years
Yes we are on a run of defeats but look at the fixtures we ran Liverpool close Man city close even Chris coming out and saying he was disappointed that we didn't get anything from the Man City game is a marker on how far we've come it will change well done Chris

 

[The Vicar]

Without outside investment, the Burnley model is as good as it gets sadly.

The PL just eats money & without it you cannot even stay in it never mind progress.

How much have WHU & Everton spent in the last 4 years [to choose just 2 clubs]? And yet have spent most of that time in the bottom half of the table.

Without outside investment the relegation/promotion yo yo is probably as good as it gets.

Better to go down with CW, than stay up for 1 more season with big sam, eddie howe or stravros miklitovachich etc in charge!

 

[Upton_Blade]

Better to go down with CW, than stay up for 1 more season with big sam, eddie howe or stravros miklitovachich etc in charge!

I'd rather get relegated and keep CW than get someone like Big Sam or Pulis in just to keep us up at any cost.

Yes relegation would hurt obviously and after last season I'm not anyone would've had us starting as bad as this but if the unthinkable happened and we were relegated then I'd have every confidence CW would get us back up at the 1st attempt. It's pretty much hoe Burnley established themselves in the top flight.

Also just to add to the above point if CW left for whatever reason we could do far worse than Eddie Howe as his replacement.

 

[hidesbehindapseudonym]

I think CW takes too much notice of us.

 

[Charlieblade]

I may be wrong but I've always got the impression that it's CW not The Prince who manages the wage bill as he holds squad harmony above almost everything else and isn't prepared to smash the wage structure if it will have a negative effect on squad harmony. There were rumours a while back that PA wanted a real marquee signing to establish his ownership credentials. Who's to say CW didn't talk him out of it?

I have no idea who determines the wages criteria. All I can say is that Wilder is given a budget, presumably based on what he asks for in each area of expenditure. The Prince and his board will decide on that, not Wilder. His responsibility lies in exercising that budget, and getting the most from it. It is apparent that some targets were not available to him, based on
Wilder not getting the player he wanted, because he was priced out on purchase costs or wages.
I think in hindsight his acquisition of Ramsdale was a good move for the club long term.
The deal for Brewster is still up for debate.
It is fairly obvious that, whatever the purchase price is, the incoming player meets the wage criteria, which Wilder guards quite carefully.
From that, you can see that while there is some flexibility in purchase price, wages are inviolate.
If Wilder needs a bigger wage budget, some other area of expenditure will take a hit.
I suspect that Wilder’s parsimony in some areas, is driven by his previous experiences with clubs that have been mismanaged financially. He doesn’t want to go there again.
Wilder may well be responsible for the wage bill, but that portion of the budget is decided by the Prince, his board and financial advisors. If potential targets don’t like our wage structure, they will go elsewhere, and it could be argued that decision makes them a bad fit for our team harmony anyway.
My point is, the club protecting its wage structure, will always mean that we lose out to clubs who will pay more.