Our natural level

[FriethBlade]

I was in the car listening to Radio 5 yesterday with one of my lads and they were discussing Bournemouth and what's gone wrong. They were discussing their ground size, history, length of time Howe has been there and how to keep their best players happy as.they will want to move to bigger clubs etc. I said they will return to their natural level at some point like Wigan and others have done.

He asked 'what's our natural level dad' ? Without much thought I said lower premiership, higher championship, or upper end of the second 15 clubs in the country.

Now since I've been watching us (40yrs) that's probably above the average we've attained but I reckon it's a pretty fair assessment.

However we now have a chance to outperform that level with the best manager in my history as a supporter.

So what is our natural level ?

 

[ComedyClub]

Champions league or bust...

All jokes aside. Top 15 of the premiership would be natural level. However with wilder I see no reason for top 8.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I was in the car listening to Radio 5 yesterday with one of my lads and they were discussing Bournemouth and what's gone wrong. They were discussing their ground size, history, length of time Howe has been there and how to keep their best players happy as.they will want to move to bigger clubs etc. I said they will return to their natural level at some point like Wigan and others have done.

He asked 'what's our natural level dad' ? Without much thought I said lower premiership, higher championship, or upper end of the second 15 clubs in the country.

Now since I've been watching us (40yrs) that's probably above the average we've attained but I reckon it's a pretty fair assessment.

However we now have a chance to outperform that level with the best manager in my history as a supporter.

So what is our natural level ?

Both Sheffield clubs are somewhere in the top 35 I think. Where depends on the management/player/ownership lottery

 

[bongleblade]

can any mathemiticians/blades historians work out our average league position from every sheffield united season? this would give us a rough average, would be interesting to see a breakdown of periods too eg, post-ww, pre-ww, pl era

 

[ComedyClub]

Both Sheffield clubs are somewhere in the top 35 I think. Where depends on the management/player/ownership lottery

Surely the pigs are top 3?

 

[Carlton Blade]

Surely the pigs are top 3?

It's between them, Man Utd and Liverpool

 

[CoatesyBlade]

I don't know if there's such a thing as 'natural level' anymore. Teams do well with TV money and investment these days. Chelsea wouldn't be where they are now as a top 4 team without Abramovich. Bournemouth and Brighton are two examples of teams that have never achieved anything in their history but sit in the premier league cos they've bought it!
This is why I think we are winning over a lot of neutral support. It's been hard earned, we play good (and revolutionary) football, we have the best manager and our club has the history to go with it.
To answer the question... I see us now as a premier league team. Over the years we will be an established one pushing the top half consistently. And hopefully picking up a trophy or two on the way UTB!!

 

[Sheffsteel]

can any mathemiticians/blades historians work out our average league position from every sheffield united season? this would give us a rough average, would be interesting to see a breakdown of periods too eg, post-ww, pre-ww, pl era

Historically regards league position and attendances we rank about 18th or 19th in England.....so our natural level is the PL (just sneaking in).

When I was a young boy in the 70’s......my grandad and virtually every pensioner used to say to me
when they were growing up United were always a permanent fixture in the top flight.....and it’s hard to imagine them playing in the 2nd division.

Our pre war record is fantastic....spending almost our entire history in the top flight.
However the last 40 years (living memory) we’ve been terrible, massively under performed.....probably rank about 35th based on league position.

 

[BladeInIreland]

I don't know about natural level but really as a minimum I think we should challenge the top 6 in the championship. I can see why we should be in the premiership but size wise were on par with a lot of teams currently below us.

 

[sufcboy95]

Last 50 years

 

[Sheffsteel]

If you type in “average league position football” into google then there’s loads of sites showing this data...

Our average ranking is 22nd which is 18th best in England.

Historically the top 20 teams in England based on average league position (not points) is

1st Liverpool
2nd Arsenal
3rd Everton
4th Man Utd
5th Aston Villa
6th Man C
7th Newcastle
8th Sunderland
9th Chelsea
10th Tottenham Hotspur
11th WBA
12th Blackburn
13th Derby
14th Wolves
15th Sheff Wed
16th Bolton
17th Middlesboro
18th Sheff United
19th Birmingham
20th Leicester

 

[Sheffsteel]

View attachment 68799Last 50 years

Your table is the last 50 years...which is virtually living memory...so in many respects is more accurate than the historically all time table that I produced.

Historically we are ranked 18 in England...so deserve to be PL status.
However over the last 50 years to only be ranked 29th best team in England...which proves how we’ve underperformed so much.

 

[Eddiecolquhounsleg]

Yet another parameter showing that you cannot get a fag paper between us and Wednesday, yet they are massive.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Yet another parameter showing that you cannot get a fag paper between us and Wednesday, yet they are massive.

I used to work with an old guy who was a passionate Sunderland fan.
He always used to say that the media seem have brain washed people that Newcastle are a much bigger club than Sunderland
but he challenged me to do some research...he said compare league positions, attendances, ground capacity, honours
He said look at any category and using facts you couldn’t get a fag paper between Newcastle and Sunderland.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

The thing thar skews it now compared to the 50 year average is premier league money. Once you're in it, and especially stop in it a bit, you get a bit of depth of funds and players to maintain a higher level.
Without it you can be knocking on the door or rattling up and down the other leagues.

 

[SelbyBlade]

can any mathemiticians/blades historians work out our average league position from every sheffield united season? this would give us a rough average, would be interesting to see a breakdown of periods too eg, post-ww, pre-ww, pl era

Another post has the dynamic graphic showing top division points accrued in history, Liverpool were top we were 17th so in all of English football history including the wilderness years we are 17th.

 

[Tezza1889]

And the highest rate club hasn't won the league.... Neat stats aren't they..

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Our average in the last two seasons has been top/ top 2 or 3. Our average this season is only top 6. Shows how we've dropped off

 

[Etchysketchy]

English Football's All-Time League Table [Live Graphic]

Who's English football's all-time top dog? This live graphic tots up all points acquired in English football's top flight.

noobnorm.com

this is good! we're in the top 12 for ages

 

[Sheffsteel]

English Football's All-Time League Table [Live Graphic]

Who's English football's all-time top dog? This live graphic tots up all points acquired in English football's top flight.

noobnorm.com

this is good! we're in the top 12 for ages

Eventhough we’ve had a shit last 50 years we’re still 17th in the all time top flight points gained table.
However the older clubs have a slight advantage...having the opportunity to build up a lead before some clubs joined the league.

Basically in almost every kind of table we rank around the 18th mark......
so we can rightly claim to be amongst the top 20 biggest club in England and worthy of PL status.

 

[bongleblade]

If you type in “average league position football” into google then there’s loads of sites showing this data...

Our average ranking is 22nd which is 18th best in England.

Historically the top 20 teams in England based on average league position (not points) is

1st Liverpool
2nd Arsenal
3rd Everton
4th Man Utd
5th Aston Villa
6th Man C
7th Newcastle
8th Sunderland
9th Chelsea
10th Tottenham Hotspur
11th WBA
12th Blackburn
13th Derby
14th Wolves
15th Sheff Wed
16th Bolton
17th Middlesboro
18th Sheff United
19th Birmingham
20th Leicester

can anyone work out what it will take to overtake wednesday? i would imagine 4-5 seasons top 10 at PL level vs them languishing in the lower ebbs of the championship/L1 might do it?

 

[Sheffsteel]

can anyone work out what it will take to overtake wednesday? i would imagine 4-5 seasons top 10 at PL level vs them languishing in the lower ebbs of the championship/L1 might do it?

In the all time league position table our positions total 2688....Wednesdays positions total 2573.

So we have 115 positions to make up.

Lets imagine we finish mid table and keep finishing around 10th in the PL table and Wednesday also keep finishing 10th in the Championship.
Thats a 20 position advantage each season......so it would take 5 or 6 seasons to go above them....if things remain as they are.

If we continuously finish top 10 and they continuously finish in the bottom half of the Championship then it should take 4 to 5 seasons to overtake them.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

View attachment 68799Last 50 years

Absolutely no way should we be ranked 29th. As said elsewhere this just shows how much we have underperformed in the last 50 years. Overall we are a top 20 side.

 

[Davalon]

View attachment 68799Last 50 years

Sobering stuff but not surprising

 

[Withington Blade]

Surely the pigs are top 3?

I assume you’re talking about in the world there, Dane? It’s a given they’re top 3 in Britain

 

[Grappler]

Historically, the better clubs with the most wins were the clubs from big cities. Fairly obvious stuff really, big city, bigger catchment area, bigger gate money (which was all important years ago), attracted richer chairmen, owners, more money for better players.

There were always anomalies, teams that made it into the top flight with a star player they discovered, but then dropped out after a few seasons.

This has not changed so much over the years, but Premier League money has distorted it, so that teams who managed to be in the right place at the right time, in the early days, like Wigan, with 13k gates, were in the top flight getting all that lovely Sky TV money.