Our Fans Are Rubbish

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Only 8 pages today. Fucking disgrace, I expect nothing less than 15 for a 0-0 whilst not playing very well..

Just a quickie though, because I've been to about 95% of the home games since 1963.
When was the last time the kop actually sucked the ball into the net and who got credited with the goal? Really pissed off I missed it.
 
alcoblade said:
We win - Players give a shit
We lose / draw - Players don't give a shit.

Just about the lamest, yet very typical analysis from your average football fan.

They players put lots of effort in, and were tired. The fans offered no vocal support. They don't have to, they pay their money. But that is the way it is, and it's a shame.
Click to expand...

Excuse me? Don't go putting words into my mouth and then using them as a basis for your patronisation.

I never said that the result had any baring on my dissatisfaction with the player's performances on Saturday or their perceived lack of effort. They are your words. If they had gone out there and 'visibly given a shit' as I said before then I would have been happy regardless of the scoreline.

What I saw on Saturday was a lack of energy and quality from the players. So many of them simply did not turn up for another pivotal game as was the case against Hull. You saw that as being tired and I saw it differently.
 
Let’s forget all the reasons for debate, stand up in your living room or wherever you may be and start booing, record yourself, then listen to yourself sound like an absolute twat of the highest order. :)

Only if you’ve got the time and effort required though? :)
 
shrubbery said:
Excuse me? Don't go putting words into my mouth and then using them as a basis for your patronisation.

I never said that the result had any baring on my dissatisfaction with the player's performances on Saturday or their perceived lack of effort. They are your words. If they had gone out there and 'visibly given a shit' as I said before then I would have been happy regardless of the scoreline.

What I saw on Saturday was a lack of energy and quality from the players. So many of them simply did not turn up for another pivotal game as was the case against Hull. You saw that as being tired and I saw it differently.
Click to expand...
You are suggesting that the players didnt give a shit. You’re entitled to think that. I’m entitled to think that that’s billshit and that you are applying the usual lame analysis when results don’t go our way.

What’s clear is that any boost that might have come from vocal support didn’t happen.

Where I’d agree with you is that these days, fans are motivated by the play, and not vice versa. That wasn’t always the case, and I’m one of an ever decreasing number of fans who think we can try and influence performance on the field by the support we offer.
 
Grecian2000 said:
Only 8 pages today. Fucking disgrace, I expect nothing less than 15 for a 0-0 whilst not playing very well..

Just a quickie though, because I've been to about 95% of the home games since 1963.
When was the last time the kop actually sucked the ball into the net and who got credited with the goal? Really pissed off I missed it.
Click to expand...
Take your point but I remember games where it FELT like the Kop made a difference especially under Bassett at the end of games; Vale, Newcastle, Derby, etc.
 
Grecian2000 said:
Only 8 pages today. Fucking disgrace, I expect nothing less than 15 for a 0-0 whilst not playing very well..

Just a quickie though, because I've been to about 95% of the home games since 1963.
When was the last time the kop actually sucked the ball into the net and who got credited with the goal? Really pissed off I missed it.
Click to expand...

Noisy crowds make a difference. Plenty of teams have been rattled kicking towards the Shoreham. The atmosphere is dogger at the minute and can be better. That’s on us.
 
Plenty of interesting comments. I agree that louder support would be a good thing, but there are no simple solutions, and the one thing that is clear is that you cannot artificially create atmosphere, you can only create the conditions for it to be possible to have a noisy atmosphere. I felt the loud music before the home derby match actually took away the atmosphere - the 2 sets of supporters would have generated a much better atmosphere at the beginning if they had been able to feed off each other.
Some thoughts (several echoing what others have said):
1. Those who want to make a noise need to be able to be together. Either safe standing or unnumbered seating on part of the Kop would be practical measures that would help generate noise. It would also need good behaviour for it to last.
2. The connection between players and crowd has been watered down, everywhere. The population is more mobile, the players move on - is our longest-serving player now Brooks? People who move to the city go and watch United, but most do not have the deep emotional attachment. The same is true of the players -the idea of a player staying 10 years is unheard of (almost).
3. There is a greater sense of entitlement. There is hardly a set of fans in the country happy with their lot now. The cup competitions have lost ground, so if you do not win the Premier League or gain promotion, a season is a failure.
4. People have got used to half watching football on TV. They look up when there is a corner or a shot, but are generally not very interested in the rest of the game. And it may bring success if you pass the ball around on the half-way line, but it won't get a crowd excited.
5. Football crowds are no longer just working-class men in flat caps. Men behave differently in front of women, kids behave differently sitting next to their parents, and their parents and grandparents behave differently. Things have changed, largely for the better.
I don't think Bramall Lane is worse than other grounds in this respect.
 



It’s always been the case that some fans sing and others don’t. I used to when I was younger but rarely do now. I shout, cheer, clap etc (and boo when I see McCabe). The idea that anyone who doesn’t sing isn’t supporting the team is daft.

There are ways to improve the atmosphere. Grouping like minded fans together is one. Improving the ground acoustics is another. Our kop design isn’t great for helping sound but filling in the kop corner would help.
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
Plenty of interesting comments. I agree that louder support would be a good thing, but there are no simple solutions, and the one thing that is clear is that you cannot artificially create atmosphere, you can only create the conditions for it to be possible to have a noisy atmosphere. I felt the loud music before the home derby match actually took away the atmosphere - the 2 sets of supporters would have generated a much better atmosphere at the beginning if they had been able to feed off each other.
Some thoughts (several echoing what others have said):
1. Those who want to make a noise need to be able to be together. Either safe standing or unnumbered seating on part of the Kop would be practical measures that would help generate noise. It would also need good behaviour for it to last.
2. The connection between players and crowd has been watered down, everywhere. The population is more mobile, the players move on - is our longest-serving player now Brooks? People who move to the city go and watch United, but most do not have the deep emotional attachment. The same is true of the players -the idea of a player staying 10 years is unheard of (almost).
3. There is a greater sense of entitlement. There is hardly a set of fans in the country happy with their lot now. The cup competitions have lost ground, so if you do not win the Premier League or gain promotion, a season is a failure.
4. People have got used to half watching football on TV. They look up when there is a corner or a shot, but are generally not very interested in the rest of the game. And it may bring success if you pass the ball around on the half-way line, but it won't get a crowd excited.
5. Football crowds are no longer just working-class men in flat caps. Men behave differently in front of women, kids behave differently sitting next to their parents, and their parents and grandparents behave differently. Things have changed, largely for the better.
I don't think Bramall Lane is worse than other grounds in this respect.
Click to expand...
you mean it's gone middle class. fair point actually
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
Plenty of interesting comments. I agree that louder support would be a good thing, but there are no simple solutions, and the one thing that is clear is that you cannot artificially create atmosphere, you can only create the conditions for it to be possible to have a noisy atmosphere. I felt the loud music before the home derby match actually took away the atmosphere - the 2 sets of supporters would have generated a much better atmosphere at the beginning if they had been able to feed off each other.
Some thoughts (several echoing what others have said):
1. Those who want to make a noise need to be able to be together. Either safe standing or unnumbered seating on part of the Kop would be practical measures that would help generate noise. It would also need good behaviour for it to last.
2. The connection between players and crowd has been watered down, everywhere. The population is more mobile, the players move on - is our longest-serving player now Brooks? People who move to the city go and watch United, but most do not have the deep emotional attachment. The same is true of the players -the idea of a player staying 10 years is unheard of (almost).
3. There is a greater sense of entitlement. There is hardly a set of fans in the country happy with their lot now. The cup competitions have lost ground, so if you do not win the Premier League or gain promotion, a season is a failure.
4. People have got used to half watching football on TV. They look up when there is a corner or a shot, but are generally not very interested in the rest of the game. And it may bring success if you pass the ball around on the half-way line, but it won't get a crowd excited.
5. Football crowds are no longer just working-class men in flat caps. Men behave differently in front of women, kids behave differently sitting next to their parents, and their parents and grandparents behave differently. Things have changed, largely for the better.
I don't think Bramall Lane is worse than other grounds in this respect.
Click to expand...
That analysis is spot on.
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
Plenty of interesting comments. I agree that louder support would be a good thing, but there are no simple solutions, and the one thing that is clear is that you cannot artificially create atmosphere, you can only create the conditions for it to be possible to have a noisy atmosphere. I felt the loud music before the home derby match actually took away the atmosphere - the 2 sets of supporters would have generated a much better atmosphere at the beginning if they had been able to feed off each other.
Some thoughts (several echoing what others have said):
1. Those who want to make a noise need to be able to be together. Either safe standing or unnumbered seating on part of the Kop would be practical measures that would help generate noise. It would also need good behaviour for it to last.
2. The connection between players and crowd has been watered down, everywhere. The population is more mobile, the players move on - is our longest-serving player now Brooks? People who move to the city go and watch United, but most do not have the deep emotional attachment. The same is true of the players -the idea of a player staying 10 years is unheard of (almost).
3. There is a greater sense of entitlement. There is hardly a set of fans in the country happy with their lot now. The cup competitions have lost ground, so if you do not win the Premier League or gain promotion, a season is a failure.
4. People have got used to half watching football on TV. They look up when there is a corner or a shot, but are generally not very interested in the rest of the game. And it may bring success if you pass the ball around on the half-way line, but it won't get a crowd excited.
5. Football crowds are no longer just working-class men in flat caps. Men behave differently in front of women, kids behave differently sitting next to their parents, and their parents and grandparents behave differently. Things have changed, largely for the better.
I don't think Bramall Lane is worse than other grounds in this respect.
Click to expand...

Top post mate.

I undertand the frustrations of some of our fans regards the atmosphere, I share some of them too.

I'd love a return to my days on the West Terrace, or in G and H blocks early this century.

The fact is though that whilst there was some terrific atmospheres during those days, there was still plenty of rubbish ones and a proportion of our fanbase could get on players backs just as much, if not more, than now.

I sometimes think some fans don't appreciate just how much our average crowds have increased in the last 20 years in general, and as you rightly point out, that can actually dilute an atmosphere with the modern day fan in an all seater stadium.

I also see some referring to great atmospheres at away grounds like Wolves, Villa and Leeds. Whilst that maybe true, I've also been to those grounds when the atmosphere has been loppy.

Atmospheres are inconsistent everywhere over a number of years.
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
Plenty of interesting comments. I agree that louder support would be a good thing, but there are no simple solutions, and the one thing that is clear is that you cannot artificially create atmosphere, you can only create the conditions for it to be possible to have a noisy atmosphere. I felt the loud music before the home derby match actually took away the atmosphere - the 2 sets of supporters would have generated a much better atmosphere at the beginning if they had been able to feed off each other.
Some thoughts (several echoing what others have said):
1. Those who want to make a noise need to be able to be together. Either safe standing or unnumbered seating on part of the Kop would be practical measures that would help generate noise. It would also need good behaviour for it to last.
2. The connection between players and crowd has been watered down, everywhere. The population is more mobile, the players move on - is our longest-serving player now Brooks? People who move to the city go and watch United, but most do not have the deep emotional attachment. The same is true of the players -the idea of a player staying 10 years is unheard of (almost).
3. There is a greater sense of entitlement. There is hardly a set of fans in the country happy with their lot now. The cup competitions have lost ground, so if you do not win the Premier League or gain promotion, a season is a failure.
4. People have got used to half watching football on TV. They look up when there is a corner or a shot, but are generally not very interested in the rest of the game. And it may bring success if you pass the ball around on the half-way line, but it won't get a crowd excited.
5. Football crowds are no longer just working-class men in flat caps. Men behave differently in front of women, kids behave differently sitting next to their parents, and their parents and grandparents behave differently. Things have changed, largely for the better.
I don't think Bramall Lane is worse than other grounds in this respect.
Click to expand...


On Saturday because Sinclair couldn't help himself finishing his pre match cheerleading the first notes didn't start until well after kick off. It used to start as we were about to kick off until he planted his ego firmly in the middle of it. He should just shut up after the team announcements.

And the beer at Maggie Mays is shit as well.
 
Sean Thornton said:
On Saturday because Sinclair couldn't help himself finishing his pre match cheerleading the first notes didn't start until well after kick off. It used to start as we were about to kick off until he planted his ego firmly in the middle of it. He should just shut up after the team announcements.

And the beer at Maggie Mays is shit as well.
Click to expand...
Beers not really on the agenda in Maggie Mays
 
Sean Thornton said:
On Saturday because Sinclair couldn't help himself finishing his pre match cheerleading the first notes didn't start until well after kick off. It used to start as we were about to kick off until he planted his ego firmly in the middle of it. He should just shut up after the team announcements.

And the beer at Maggie Mays is shit as well.
Click to expand...
Sinclair doesn’t half go on. When a player goes off he has to say well done to (insert name) whilst the ovation is going off and you can hear him over it. We don’t need to hear you Gary at this time, leave the atmosphere to create itself not through an annoying microphone and loud PA system.
 
There's a report on the BBC sport website currently discussing the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford, and various proposals for improving it. None of them appear imminent, or likely to change things. It supports the view that the problem is widespread, and not a uniquely Blades thing. I would suggest accepting that as the starting-point for improvements is more likely to have an impact than having fall-outs amongst ourselves. And I suspect that it has to be looked at as a long-term project, by persuading the club that changes are possible and desirable. Good luck to anyone prepared to take the task on (that is serious, not sarcastic).
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
There's a report on the BBC sport website currently discussing the lack of atmosphere at Old Trafford, and various proposals for improving it. None of them appear imminent, or likely to change things. It supports the view that the problem is widespread, and not a uniquely Blades thing. I would suggest accepting that as the starting-point for improvements is more likely to have an impact than having fall-outs amongst ourselves. And I suspect that it has to be looked at as a long-term project, by persuading the club that changes are possible and desirable. Good luck to anyone prepared to take the task on (that is serious, not sarcastic).
Click to expand...

Indeed. Old Trafford is one of the reasons I know the "crowd effect" is minimal to none existent.
They are very quiet these days and were so when Roy K was denouncing the Prawn Sarnie brigade whilst they were winning everything in sight. Made no difference.
Similarly, when they were the rowdiest bunch of detestable bastards in the country, and Old Trafford (particularly the Stretford) was a real hotbed (the Seventies) they got relegated. How could this be so? Perhaps having a shit time was more important.

The "atmosphere" is something the crowd enjoy and like to think it makes a difference. The players dictate whether we win or lose, whether it's like a library or an abattoir.
 
Grecian2000 said:
Indeed. Old Trafford is one of the reasons I know the "crowd effect" is minimal to none existent.
They are very quiet these days and were so when Roy K was denouncing the Prawn Sarnie brigade whilst they were winning everything in sight. Made no difference.
Similarly, when they were the rowdiest bunch of detestable bastards in the country, and Old Trafford (particularly the Stretford) was a real hotbed (the Seventies) they got relegated. How could this be so? Perhaps having a shit time was more important.

The "atmosphere" is something the crowd enjoy and like to think it makes a difference. The players dictate whether we win or lose, whether it's like a library or an abattoir.
Click to expand...
That is an interesting example, but of course one example is not proof that something is generally true. There must be several PhD theses to be be written on this (or perhaps have been). I would guess the very top players respond to a big crowd, and would not be as energetic playing behind closed doors; but I also suspect that they don't worry about whether the noise is for or against them - they get a buzz from a large audience. I also suspect more fragile players find it difficult when their own fans turn on them, especially in the case of goalkeepers and defenders, whose mistakes can have immediate consequences; in midfield or attack, players who make mistakes can still keep the crowd onside if they are seen to work hard, but a goalie who keeps dropping the ball is soon an object of derision, no matter how hard he tries. Over my 60+ years at the Lane I have felt that the crowd is generally patient; some players have overcome barracking (Gannon), and while I am sure others will remind me of scapegoats, George Long is one of the few that I feel got a really bad deal from the boo boys.
I would also guess that the crowd reaction to conceding a goal can make a difference to the players' confidence. Perhaps the important thing about being at a match is that we believe we can influence events. Watching United on TV is just not the same.
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
That is an interesting example, but of course one example is not proof that something is generally true. There must be several PhD theses to be be written on this (or perhaps have been). I would guess the very top players respond to a big crowd, and would not be as energetic playing behind closed doors; but I also suspect that they don't worry about whether the noise is for or against them - they get a buzz from a large audience. I also suspect more fragile players find it difficult when their own fans turn on them, especially in the case of goalkeepers and defenders, whose mistakes can have immediate consequences; in midfield or attack, players who make mistakes can still keep the crowd onside if they are seen to work hard, but a goalie who keeps dropping the ball is soon an object of derision, no matter how hard he tries. Over my 60+ years at the Lane I have felt that the crowd is generally patient; some players have overcome barracking (Gannon), and while I am sure others will remind me of scapegoats, George Long is one of the few that I feel got a really bad deal from the boo boys.
Click to expand...

My personal view is that a crowd has limited positive effect, a crowd is never completely silent, of course, so we're talking about degrees of loudness/chanting/singing. I'm sure some players are motivated by cheers and chants, but I would have thought all players know that their supporters will cheer and applaud if they score and win, which must be motivation enough. I do, however, believe a negative crowd can put enormous pressure on players and you can often see teams whose players don't want the ball. I'm also sure the players can hear some of the insults and derogatory comments shouted at them by individuals. Some people sometimes forget that a lot of these players are relatively young lads when they are venting their frustration with the world.
The crowd can't hide the emotions of its individuals, of course, but I never think there's a need for the overly negative groans, boos and criticism of our own players during a match. I just think it makes things worse.

HodgysBrokenThumb said:
I would also guess that the crowd reaction to conceding a goal can make a difference to the players' confidence. Perhaps the important thing about being at a match is that we believe we can influence events. Watching United on TV is just not the same.
Click to expand...
A lot of people think they can influence the match by wearing a different pair of socks or going for a shit at the right time.
 



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