Origins of support

[bornablade]

A total fabrication.

 

[bornablade]

A total fabrication.

I need further clarification. Are you saying that or is Bert saying it?

 

[TJB.]

I was in Blighty a few weeks ago. I met up with some of my Sheffield cousins in Wales by way of a reunion. One uncle, now 93, a staunch socialist and a mitwoch fan, explained his reasons for supporting them lot. He said, Mitwoch were always the working class club and United the middle class club. I was the only Blade in 7. To be fair, they were all balanced in their views, none of the 'massive' hyperbole one would expect. Is the old man's rationale, regarding support, correct? I have never heard that before.

He may sort of be onto something, albeit in a confused way.

To my memory from attending an evening with John Garrett about the founding and early history of United up at Peaks library, I recall him alluding to something of a similar nature. Not so much in the support of the club (it was 19th century Sheffield, for fucks sake), but in how the clubs were founded.

I'm not sure who founded them lot's football club, but I believe it was a group of working-class folk (butchers?). Garrett claimed that United were formed when a group of solicitors didn't want Wednesday to have Bramall Lane as their home, and thus formed us to play there.

Obviously being a lawyer was a middle/upper class job then, as it is now, so that might be what your uncle is getting at.

Happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong...it was a fair few years back now.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Quite the opposite. The Blades always represented the working classes of the city. Wednesday were middle class business owners. Mainly butchers who always closed their businesses on a Wednesday in order to participate in recreational activities. They felt it necessary to remove their blue and white striped aprons and replace them with similar coloured striped shirts.

This is well documented in many books.

I was going to say the same.

There was an edition of the Green Un around the turn of the last century with a cartoon drawing of a Wednesday fan and a United fan. The Wednesday fan was depicted in Top Hat and tails. The United fan in flat cap and scruffy clothes.

When they made the film The Full Monty, United were chosen to portray the image of the poor underdog.

Its never been the other way round.

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

Rather like Seville and Betis. Boy do those fuckers go at it.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

He may sort of be onto something, albeit in a confused way.

To my memory from attending an evening with John Garrett about the founding and early history of United up at Peaks library, I recall him alluding to something of a similar nature. Not so much in the support of the club (it was 19th century Sheffield, for fucks sake), but in how the clubs were founded.

I'm not sure who founded them lot's football club, but I believe it was a group of working-class folk (butchers?). Garrett claimed that United were formed when a group of solicitors didn't want Wednesday to have Bramall Lane as their home, and thus formed us to play there.

Obviously being a lawyer was a middle/upper class job then, as it is now, so that might be what your uncle is getting at.

Happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong...it was a fair few years back now.

Wednesday were formed by " wealthy traders" yes some were butchers, but all had money.

When United were formed it caused a lot of resentment as Wednesday didn't like the idea of competition on their doorstep taking their trade.

United also undercut Wednesdays admission prices in order to attract local support. That didn't go down too well either. United set out to appeal to the working class man from the off. We still undercut them now and offer much better value for money!

 

[Snowman]

He may sort of be onto something, albeit in a confused way.

To my memory from attending an evening with John Garrett about the founding and early history of United up at Peaks library, I recall him alluding to something of a similar nature. Not so much in the support of the club (it was 19th century Sheffield, for fucks sake), but in how the clubs were founded.

I'm not sure who founded them lot's football club, but I believe it was a group of working-class folk (butchers?). Garrett claimed that United were formed when a group of solicitors didn't want Wednesday to have Bramall Lane as their home, and thus formed us to play there.

Obviously being a lawyer was a middle/upper class job then, as it is now, so that might be what your uncle is getting at.

Happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong...it was a fair few years back now.

Butchers?????? Working class folk?????? The self employed with a significant skill and enough capital to own/lease a shop, to use capital to purchase meat and equipment to butcher and preserve it in order to sell it on for a profit to those that could afford meat. You must be...... Oh I give in FFS.

 

[Snowman]

He may sort of be onto something, albeit in a confused way.

To my memory from attending an evening with John Garrett about the founding and early history of United up at Peaks library, I recall him alluding to something of a similar nature. Not so much in the support of the club (it was 19th century Sheffield, for fucks sake), but in how the clubs were founded.

I'm not sure who founded them lot's football club, but I believe it was a group of working-class folk (butchers?). Garrett claimed that United were formed when a group of solicitors didn't want Wednesday to have Bramall Lane as their home, and thus formed us to play there.

Obviously being a lawyer was a middle/upper class job then, as it is now, so that might be what your uncle is getting at.

Happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong...it was a fair few years back now.

And please google and find Wikipedia for William or Charles Clegg - Sheffield Wednesday. I think you will find that one of the buggers was a local politician and mayor of Sheffield and the other was a prominent lawyer. Clegg & Co was the firm which later became Benson Clegg which eventually merged with Wake Smith. In fact a bit like the later Eric the fatman and Dave Richards the Cleggs used their influence at Pigsday to climb the greasy pole of influence with the footballing authorities. Twas ever thus. My uncle (who lived in palatial place in Dore), was a vice president of the Pigs. Working class my fucking arse.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

Coe was born in London though.

Thanks for the info. Didn`t know that.

 

[Snowman]

In general terms United's power base is Park, Heeley, Manor, Arbourthorne, Gleadless, Woodseats and for some reason out on a limb SE Sheffield. Similarly the pigs power base is the reservation made up of t'Cross, Shirecliffe, Shiregreen, Southey, Ecclesfield and all the way up to Stocksbridge. These are all what you would call working class districts of Sheffield and working class people make up the bulk of support of both Sheffield clubs. End of this argument. Sure there are fans of both in the more salubrious parts of town but lets not kid ourselves the majority of these residents care more about the health of the trees than they do about the health of the football clubs.

I was going to make the same point in that when I first joined the ruffians on the kop from my comfy S11 existence there was a preponderance from Park, Arbourthorne & Manor. BUT, the OP was about origins of support and his relative probably started supporting in the late 1930's to early 1940's. God knows what was working class/middle class then.

 

[oldblade]

He may sort of be onto something, albeit in a confused way.

To my memory from attending an evening with John Garrett about the founding and early history of United up at Peaks library, I recall him alluding to something of a similar nature. Not so much in the support of the club (it was 19th century Sheffield, for fucks sake), but in how the clubs were founded.

I'm not sure who founded them lot's football club, but I believe it was a group of working-class folk (butchers?). Garrett claimed that United were formed when a group of solicitors didn't want Wednesday to have Bramall Lane as their home, and thus formed us to play there.

Obviously being a lawyer was a middle/upper class job then, as it is now, so that might be what your uncle is getting at.

Happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong...it was a fair few years back now.

I don't think the opposition of a group of solicitors had anything at all to do with Wednesday's decision to stop using Bramall Lane for their higher profile fixtures. Wednesday had become a professional outfit and so needed money. Hence they didn't want to keep paying a substantial portion of their gate receipts to the Sheffield United Ground Committee. I think It was purely a financial decision on their part to seek a ground of their own, rather than keep renting a ground that didn't belong to them. I think they left before any move was made to form United.

However, Wednesday going their own way left the ground committee with a big hole in their finances. They needed a regular income during the winter months when no cricket was played. It was in order to plug that gap that it was decided to form a football club that was permanently based at Bramall Lane. And so the embodiment of footballing angst otherwise known as Sheffield United was born.

It's a bit ironic that they hate us so much, when it was their actions that pretty much caused our formation!

 

[snootyfenooty]

I was going to make the same point in that when I first joined the ruffians on the kop from my comfy S11 existence there was a preponderance from Park, Arbourthorne & Manor. BUT, the OP was about origins of support and his relative probably started supporting in the late 1930's to early 1940's. God knows what was working class/middle class then.

Given the state of the class system in those days, it's unlikely that encouragement of working class participation was a consideration in the formation of either club.

 

[Fanny magnet]

I think it's a very complex issue with United gleening support from many socio economic and varied political and religious backgrounds both ethnically and geographically whereas Wednesday fans are all cunts

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I don't think the opposition of a group of solicitors had anything at all to do with Wednesday's decision to stop using Bramall Lane for their higher profile fixtures. Wednesday had become a professional outfit and so needed money. Hence they didn't want to keep paying a substantial portion of their gate receipts to the Sheffield United Ground Committee. I think It was purely a financial decision on their part to seek a ground of their own, rather than keep renting a ground that didn't belong to them. I think they left before any move was made to form United.

However, Wednesday going their own way left the ground committee with a big hole in their finances. They needed a regular income during the winter months when no cricket was played. It was in order to plug that gap that it was decided to form a football club that was permanently based at Bramall Lane. And so the embodiment of footballing angst otherwise known as Sheffield United was born.

It's a bit ironic that they hate us so much, when it was their actions that pretty much caused our formation!

This tallies with what I've read and been told. Football was becoming very popular and there was money to be made. For their big games Wednesday used Bramall Lane for a rental fee, but kept the gate money. The Ground Committee realised Wednesday were making serious money from this, so informed them the rent was going up. At this, they decided to cut loose and get their own place. This left the ground committee with a serious funding shortage through the winter, so they decided to form their own team to maximise the popularity of football. Not sure class figured much in the origins, but maybe was an influence a bit later.

 

[FlamingLip]

I think it's a very complex issue with United gleening support from many socio economic and varied political and religious backgrounds both ethnically and geographically whereas Wednesday fans are all cunts

 

[FlamingLip]

Quite the opposite. The Blades always represented the working classes of the city. Wednesday were middle class business owners. Mainly butchers who always closed their businesses on a Wednesday in order to participate in recreational activities. They felt it necessary to remove their blue and white striped aprons and replace them with similar coloured striped shirts.

This is well documented in many books.

Ah yes, the era of half a million Sheffield butchers

 

[borg elite]

This rings a bell with me. My dad hated football and was a director at a company whose colours were blue and white in favour of the pigs. When I was nine years old I had no interest in football. He thought it would be a good idea to get me interested in football so he bought me a pair of piggy sweat bands. Soon after a mate of mine asked me if I wanted to come along to see United at home to Rochdale in 1982 (4th division promotion season). After watching that game I came home and set fire to the sweat bands in the garden. Still brings a smile to my face.

I always felt that there was a certain amount of unspoken pressure to support Wednesday. They felt to me like the establishment club, the one you were 'supposed' to support. It felt like United were the poorer and neglected relations, the smaller brother. The fact that our ground used to be a bit of a tip compared to theirs helped perpetuate that perception. But we were the smaller brother that had attitude and was as hard as nails. Certainly hard enough to get one over them pretty regularly.

I suppose we were the Rolling Stones - exciting and 'naughty'. They were Bert Bacharach.

 

[1066blade]

Elite? Moi?? I was born in the Kelvin and moved up several class steps to the Parsons Cross.... Elite? FFS

 

[Goodpinchofclough]

One of 2 reasons I'm a blade

 

[Silent Blade]

One of 2 reasons I'm a blade View attachment 29515

Me too

 

[oldblade]

This rings a bell with me. My dad hated football and was a director at a company whose colours were blue and white in favour of the pigs. When I was nine years old I had no interest in football. He thought it would be a good idea to get me interested in football so he bought me a pair of piggy sweat bands. Soon after a mate of mine asked me if I wanted to come along to see United at home to Rochdale in 1982 (4th division promotion season). After watching that game I came home and set fire to the sweat bands in the garden. Still brings a smile to my face.

That match against Rochdale all but clinched promotion. I think it meant that if Peterborough dropped any points at all from their remaining fixtures we would be up.

It was also a good attendance. Comfortably over 20,000. We got fewer when we played (and beat) Arsenal in the home leg of the league cup earlier in the season. Just goes to show, people would rather watch Rochdale than Arsenal!

 

[Bert]

Bert was born here. Geographically he should have been a Wednesdayite.... but he isn't

 

[Sirius]

I think labelling either club middle class or working class is a little bit sad really. No doubt there are fans from all social levels that support both clubs and calling either one "the working class" or "the middle class" club is just wrong.

It's in yer blood . My blood group, like my father and grandfather before me is Blades Positive . and it has passed on to my son and grandson too.

 

[flashinblade1889]

I suppose he's taking about traditional reputation
But let's be straight, traditionally EVERY fan that went to a football match was WORKING CLASS.

I remember the 80's when football was relatively unfashionable.
Every now and then I'd mention that I went to football matches and some people automatically thought I was an hooligan. It felt like I was like saying that I was a member of the Nazi party. Football had a big working class reputation and posh people would turn their nose up at the very thought of football.

So it's quite funny how since Sky marketing have made the football industry so fashionable.
That so many middle class/ posh people now declare their passion towards a football club, sometimes I'm not convinced as it feels like they are just following fashion and playing at it.

Michael 'I'm a cunt' Vaughan....

 

[Sirius]

Michael 'I'm a cunt' Vaughan....

"Once a cunt always a cunt" except when batting is his family motto

 

[shorehamview]

I suppose he's taking about traditional reputation
But let's be straight, traditionally EVERY fan that went to a football match was WORKING CLASS.

I remember the 80's when football was relatively unfashionable.
Every now and then I'd mention that I went to football matches and some people automatically thought I was an hooligan. It felt like I was like saying that I was a member of the Nazi party. Football had a big working class reputation and posh people would turn their nose up at the very thought of football.

So it's quite funny how since Sky marketing have made the football industry so fashionable.
That so many middle class/ posh people now declare their passion towards a football club, sometimes I'm not convinced as it feels like they are just following fashion and playing at it.

When I first started seeing the lady who is now my wife her flat mates were convinced I was a football hooligan, because I like football. Go figure....

 

[rustyoldlondonblade]

I was in Blighty a few weeks ago. I met up with some of my Sheffield cousins in Wales by way of a reunion. One uncle, now 93, a staunch socialist and a mitwoch fan, explained his reasons for supporting them lot. He said, Mitwoch were always the working class club and United the middle class club. I was the only Blade in 7. To be fair, they were all balanced in their views, none of the 'massive' hyperbole one would expect. Is the old man's rationale, regarding support, correct? I have never heard that before.

well my g'dad and at least two preceding generations worked in the cutlery industry - Taylor's in fact - based around the bottom of the moor and living not too far away - given that they would all have worked sat mornings in those days it's no surprise they chose to walk to the lane, no doubt stopping for some fish and chips and a couple of pints en route, rather than trudge halfway to penistone for an afternoons entertainment - so i have always understood the blades to be the club of the traditional working class of the old inner city industries - the others of course are strictly suburban - with all the connotations!

 

[Cerberus Blade]

Regarding your last sentence. that is probably not a bad thing. I agree with your post though, if you work and own your own home these days you'd be classed as middle class.

Not according to that survey. The way the questions are weighted isn't apparent, but I suspect the main thing that defines "working class" from that survey is how and with whom people socialise most. Working class is often defined by socialising with people with similar interests to themselves. If you take the survey and tick that you"socialise" with people from every one of those occupations it will most likely raise your class standard.

If you want to see evidence of this, why not pop into a working man's social club and see how many people of a professional occupation go there regularly. Some perhaps, but the vast majority will be working class folks.

Working and owning your home does not make you middle class - sorry, but that is totally flawed thinking. It might have stood for that at one time - maybe 50 years ago when many folks didn't own their own homes - but not today. 100% mortgages for first time buyers put paid to that. I remember as a kid in the 1960's and George Best was an icon of the jet set back then. I remember hearing on the news that he was taking a holiday in Majorca - and I thought that must be fantastic to have that kind of lifestyle. It was seen as being something almost impossible to achieve in life, to be able to travel to beautiful Spanish islands like that, to go abroad for a holiday, or to go on a plane even was something most people in the mining community where I lived, had never done or even dreamt of back then.

So it was with car ownership. Very few households where I grew up had a car in the 1960's. Now most households have several. Things have changed a lot. The people of the traditional working classes have more material wealth now than ever before in my lifetime. And good for them! But that doesn't change their class status.

I think "middle class" is actually as much about the way you think about life and the values you have, than material possessions. If you regularly reach for the word "posh" to describe things that are of a higher standard than you are usually familiar with; if you use the same word (or "snob") to describe a person because they don't speak in a broad accent like you do; if you feel threatened by people who wear a matching jacket and trousers for work (a suit); if it annoys or upsets you in some way when people drive a nice car or live in a big house; you are probably trapped in a working class mindset, regardless of your wealth and material possessions. (And that's o.k. by the way - there's absolutely nothing wrong with being working class. That's where I'm from. But the main thing that stops you from aspiring to be different to that is the way you think about it).

 

[Caveblade]

If our support was all middle class, by the reasoning of this board they would all sit in the Westfield upper and they don't, therefore they aren't.

The whole supposition is rediculous, both clubs will have a spread of support from different classes, areas and occupations. What happened 50 to 100 years ago is largely irrelevant as we all now have a mobility that makes it simple to get from one side of the city to the other , so geographical influences on club preference have gone.

I don't understand the pride in being a working class club, I am just proud of my club regardless of the demographic of people who support it.

The obvious difference between Blades and Wednesday fans is intelligence. In my experience, Blades are generally quite savvy well balanced individuals whilst Owls fans tend to be deluded and educationally sub normal.

 

[Yewsman]

The other factor which may have affected support is that up until the South Stand was built in mid 1970's we were Sheffield United Football and Cricket Club (can't remember which sport came first in the title). This meant that a number of the directors and players were there in a cricket capacity and presumably also some of the supporters started to support the club through cricket.
I have always thought that Mitwoch were the "establishment" club - one of the reasons I became a Blade although I would be regarded as "middle class". As my father was not really that bothered about football (though he later became a season ticket holder at BL) he did not influence me one way or another but my choice to become a blade has lead to a whole chain of Blades - my younger brother, my son, my nephew, my cousin, his wife and 2 sons, hopefully my 2 grandchildren (when old enough).