Norwood being marked

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Addison said:
Spot on assessment BB. Too many times last season it happened Florist in 2 games, Blackburn and Coventry being prime examples. Norwood was substituted in 3 of those games. Yesterday in 1 moment young Arblaster showed what Norwood doesn't possess quick feet and the ability to get out of being marked by going past players.

Norwood is integral to how we play but we need to develop a plan B and implement it as you say early in a game when it is not working. Florist at Home was a prime example. We hardly got a kick of the ball in midfield for 60 minutes but when we took him off and changed it we were the better team for the last 30. Again in the first leg of the play off we knew what was coming but waited too long to make the change and lost the game.

I've felt for some time we need a left footed DM enforcer alongside Norwood 6 foot plus to provide protection. Not sure where we find one but we've been missing that type of player for some time. Young Coulibaly although right footed did play down the left for Beerschot, possibly a short term option but we need to solve this current inability to deal with the man marking of Norwood sooner rather than later.
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This.
 

Thanks Bergen for the effort.

My opinion... In Championship terms he's a flawed genius. He's a gritty model-pro to go with it.

If he had pace (and maybe was a bit more consistent) he might have replaced Pirlo at Juve. Certainly wouldn't have been let go from Man Utd.

All hail.
 
He has some skill in him, but the situation that was created by his mistakes got me anxious when ever he was on the ball and pressed. There was run of multiple games in a row where he did good or atleast avoided big slumps and momentarily I had confident with him.

Let's hope he het's good start for this season.
 
Typically, I'll disagree on most aspects.

For too long I feel we have been charmed by a man who seems to have one speciality in his arsenal, that being to thump the ball over the heads of most of the park to the far touchline. This worked extremely well in the preceding two seasons to the PL campaign because under Wilder we were developing a deadly method of using Basham and O'Connell to play the overlapping centrebacks schtick. Oppositions, especially at lower levels, simply didn't know how to deal with it and we scored a lot of matchwinning goals by having Norwood collect and deliver. First season in the PL was much the same too. But like most methods, if you play like it too long the opposition will suss it and I have said before and I'll say it again, post-lockdown and Villa away it was clear those days were over and Norwood's purple patch was too. I'd be interested to see the assists and goals stats before and after lockdown where Norwood is concerned as a ratio of minutes played. His position - whichever way people want to see it - ranges from CM in a flat three to CDM in a 3-1-4-2. Either way it's the same tactic - show for the central defenders, receive with his back to the direction of play, give it back to the CDs, point a bit, receive the ball, pass it back and when some sort of opening occurs, he's looking over at the diagonal far flank to cut it over there. I mean, fine, if you like that sort of thing. It's credible if it leads to a chance on goal but he is so fucking predictable. All oppositions have to do with Norwood is either press him (because he'll get rid or lose possession very quickly) or move players out to the flanks to deal with the inevitable long punt, because the exposed player out there doesn't now have a marauding Basham or O'Connell as an option. It has to come backwards, across the back and up the other flank. It's so fucking one-note and idiotic. Yet, because Norwood has booted it long, people are as hard as Chinese maths over it. That's not football. Football is scoring goals and winning games.

The rest of his game - he has zero deftness and pace, so he can't drop a shoulder and sell a player to get past him. Nor does he run with the ball twenty yards with space in front of him to get oppositions on the back foot. His crossing is still limited as is his supposed wand of a right foot which we have seen send shots high, wide and handsome. He also is desperately crap at tackling and winning the ball, something I feel is an essential ingredient of any midfielder. I also feel that he has been substandard for so long, any passable outing (in particular when the opposition allow him time in the centre of the park) is judged as a worldy. I have been guilty of this in My Takes ... where on reflection the midfield players we have had in the past - Brown, Gannon, Hutchinson, Duffy, McCall, Hockey, Coutts to name but a few, have all been far better examples of players who have a multitude of skills in their toolset and not many of them kicked the ball 50 yards at fifteen feet above the turf into a dead end. They would set up one-twos, advance up the pitch with the ball at their feet, be difficult to dispossess, tackle hard and jockey and either make goals or score them. Norwood is a sentimental relic now of four seasons ago ... a man who is still playing a game we no longer should be playing because provenly, Wilderball is dead and buried. We need a better option now, a fast, intelligent playmaker who can exploit the potential of Ndaiye, Brewster and Berge and show in timely fashion on the end of a dazzling move to crack in a shot from outside the box. They are out there ... I just feel Sheffield United is still wedded to picking him first simply because he is a crowd pleaser. He is a systemic example of what is fundamentally wrong with Sheffield United, and he needs replacing.

I am very willing to be proven wrong this season but I feel he is going to be a pretty poor and inexcusable lodestone round our necks again and we need and deserve a lot better.

Footnote: If you are responding to this, do me a fucking favour and leave the ad hominem out and the 'pommpey has a thing about Norwood' shit out of it will you? I have countered Bergen's very well resourced and well-argued case for Norwood with my own opinion on the player. If you can't offer real evidence to counter and debate like a grown up, please fucking leave it out, eh?

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
He also is desperately crap at tackling and winning the ball, something I feel is an essential ingredient of any midfielder.

pommpey
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I actually disagree with this and think he gets a lot of stick unfairly regarding his tackling, I think he gets his foot in there a fair bit and I'm pretty sure if you look at the stats for last season he will have more successful tackles than any of our other midfielders.
 
WTF was that creature scurrying around on that 4th video? Showed some real pace and definitely worth a punt.
 
pommpey said:
Typically, I'll disagree on most aspects.

For too long I feel we have been charmed by a man who seems to have one speciality in his arsenal, that being to thump the ball over the heads of most of the park to the far touchline. This worked extremely well in the preceding two seasons to the PL campaign because under Wilder we were developing a deadly method of using Basham and O'Connell to play the overlapping centrebacks schtick. Oppositions, especially at lower levels, simply didn't know how to deal with it and we scored a lot of matchwinning goals by having Norwood collect and deliver. First season in the PL was much the same too. But like most methods, if you play like it too long the opposition will suss it and I have said before and I'll say it again, post-lockdown and Villa away it was clear those days were over and Norwood's purple patch was too. I'd be interested to see the assists and goals stats before and after lockdown where Norwood is concerned as a ratio of minutes played. His position - whichever way people want to see it - ranges from CM in a flat three to CDM in a 3-1-4-2. Either way it's the same tactic - show for the central defenders, receive with his back to the direction of play, give it back to the CDs, point a bit, receive the ball, pass it back and when some sort of opening occurs, he's looking over at the diagonal far flank to cut it over there. I mean, fine, if you like that sort of thing. It's credible if it leads to a chance on goal but he is so fucking predictable. All oppositions have to do with Norwood is either press him (because he'll get rid or lose possession very quickly) or move players out to the flanks to deal with the inevitable long punt, because the exposed player out there doesn't now have a marauding Basham or O'Connell as an option. It has to come backwards, across the back and up the other flank. It's so fucking one-note and idiotic. Yet, because Norwood has booted it long, people are as hard as Chinese maths over it. That's not football. Football is scoring goals and winning games.

The rest of his game - he has zero deftness and pace, so he can't drop a shoulder and sell a player to get past him. Nor does he run with the ball twenty yards with space in front of him to get oppositions on the back foot. His crossing is still limited as is his supposed wand of a right foot which we have seen send shots high, wide and handsome. He also is desperately crap at tackling and winning the ball, something I feel is an essential ingredient of any midfielder. I also feel that he has been substandard for so long, any passable outing (in particular when the opposition allow him time in the centre of the park) is judged as a worldy. I have been guilty of this in My Takes ... where on reflection the midfield players we have had in the past - Brown, Gannon, Hutchinson, Duffy, McCall, Hockey, Coutts to name but a few, have all been far better examples of players who have a multitude of skills in their toolset and not many of them kicked the ball 50 yards at fifteen feet above the turf into a dead end. They would set up one-twos, advance up the pitch with the ball at their feet, be difficult to dispossess, tackle hard and jockey and either make goals or score them. Norwood is a sentimental relic now of four seasons ago ... a man who is still playing a game we no longer should be playing because provenly, Wilderball is dead and buried. We need a better option now, a fast, intelligent playmaker who can exploit the potential of Ndaiye, Brewster and Berge and show in timely fashion on the end of a dazzling move to crack in a shot from outside the box. They are out there ... I just feel Sheffield United is still wedded to picking him first simply because he is a crowd pleaser. He is a systemic example of what is fundamentally wrong with Sheffield United, and he needs replacing.

I am very willing to be proven wrong this season but I feel he is going to be a pretty poor and inexcusable lodestone round our necks again and we need and deserve a lot better.

Footnote: If you are responding to this, do me a fucking favour and leave the ad hominem out and the 'pommpey has a thing about Norwood' shit out of it will you? I have countered Bergen's very well resourced and well-argued case for Norwood with my own opinion on the player. If you can't offer real evidence to counter and debate like a grown up, please fucking leave it out, eh?

pommpey
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Are you sure we disagree on most aspects?

To decide if we agree or not, we have to agree on what the debate is.

The point of the thread wasn't to say how great Oliver Norwood is, and I didn't want to discuss too much whether he should feature or not. As I said I also didn't want it to be about his defensive qualities. For all you know I may think the latter is so poor that I want him transfer listed immediately, regardless of his offensive contribution. Note, I also used the word "worthless" in the opening post.

Over the years I've several times wanted us to change the formation and posted about that. But if the current manager plays 3-5-2 it's not interesting to see some bloke suggesting a 4-4-2 line up every week. So for the clarity of debate it's better sometimes to agree on some sort of structure, i.e. what is the best line up within the formation preferred by the current manager.

So the post was about Norwood's contribution to our attacking play, how it is affected by the opposition pressing him, and what the team can do to counteract the negative effects of the latter. A small topic, but an important one, in my opinon, and one that I reckon the staff discuss, and work on, in much greater detail every week. The management can't let one tactical move, pressing our DCM, lead to the collapse of our attacking play.

You describe some of the things he does, but you don't seem to see the purpose of it anymore. And we can agree that there has to be a purpose of the playmaking, the passing around. As Gurardiola said:

Tiki-taka means passing the ball for the sake of it, with no clear intention. And it's pointless.

Don't believe what people say. Barca didn't do tiki-taka! It's completely made up! Don't believe a word of it! In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope. You overload on one side and draw them in so that they leave the other side weak.

And when we've done all that, we attack and score from the other side. That's why you have to pass the ball, but only if you're doing it with a clear intention. It's only to overload the opponent, to draw them in and then to hit them with the sucker punch. That's what our game needs to be. Nothing to do with tiki-taka.
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If Norwood's ping to the other side is followed by a static Enda chesting it down, and then passing it backwards to an also static Jack Robinson, we're falling into the trap of purposelessness. If his ping is for Lowe to run onto and beat his opponent we have purpose (like the first and last clip).

If we have enough movement, enough threats, enough people getting into good position and Norwood gets the space he needs I think his playmaking can still be effective, as his vision and accuracy is still good at this level. If there's a lack of movement, too many hanging around at the back or Norwood is unable to find space, he'll be ineffective.

I thought I saw some signs of a plan to counteract him being pressed at Scunthorpe. We'll have to assess that part more when the league starts though.
 
Bergen Blade said:
Are you sure we disagree on most aspects?

To decide if we agree or not, we have to agree on what the debate is.

The point of the thread wasn't to say how great Oliver Norwood is, and I didn't want to discuss too much whether he should feature or not. As I said I also didn't want it to be about his defensive qualities. For all you know I may think the latter is so poor that I want him transfer listed immediately, regardless of his offensive contribution. Note, I also used the word "worthless" in the opening post.

Over the years I've several times wanted us to change the formation and posted about that. But if the current manager plays 3-5-2 it's not interesting to see some bloke suggesting a 4-4-2 line up every week. So for the clarity of debate it's better sometimes to agree on some sort of structure, i.e. what is the best line up within the formation preferred by the current manager.

So the post was about Norwood's contribution to our attacking play, how it is affected by the opposition pressing him, and what the team can do to counteract the negative effects of the latter. A small topic, but an important one, in my opinon, and one that I reckon the staff discuss, and work on, in much greater detail every week. The management can't let one tactical move, pressing our DCM, lead to the collapse of our attacking play.

You describe some of the things he does, but you don't seem to see the purpose of it anymore. And we can agree that there has to be a purpose of the playmaking, the passing around. As Gurardiola said:



If Norwood's ping to the other side is followed by a static Enda chesting it down, and then passing it backwards to an also static Jack Robinson, we're falling into the trap of purposelessness. If his ping is for Lowe to run onto and beat his opponent we have purpose (like the first and last clip).

If we have enough movement, enough threats, enough people getting into good position and Norwood gets the space he needs I think his playmaking can still be effective, as his vision and accuracy is still good at this level. If there's a lack of movement, too many hanging around at the back or Norwood is unable to find space, he'll be ineffective.

I thought I saw some signs of a plan to counteract him being pressed at Scunthorpe. We'll have to assess that part more when the league starts though.
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True - but your last example of him finding Lowe to run onto to is rare. Most teams we face are very aware that once Norwood gets to turn and face up the pitch, his one priority is to find one of the wingbacks creeping up the touchline. They instantly move players out there to counter any overload. Scunthorpe - obviously not at the level we face - didn't do that.

pommpey
 
pommpey said:
Typically, I'll disagree on most aspects.

For too long I feel we have been charmed by a man who seems to have one speciality in his arsenal, that being to thump the ball over the heads of most of the park to the far touchline. This worked extremely well in the preceding two seasons to the PL campaign because under Wilder we were developing a deadly method of using Basham and O'Connell to play the overlapping centrebacks schtick. Oppositions, especially at lower levels, simply didn't know how to deal with it and we scored a lot of matchwinning goals by having Norwood collect and deliver. First season in the PL was much the same too. But like most methods, if you play like it too long the opposition will suss it and I have said before and I'll say it again, post-lockdown and Villa away it was clear those days were over and Norwood's purple patch was too. I'd be interested to see the assists and goals stats before and after lockdown where Norwood is concerned as a ratio of minutes played. His position - whichever way people want to see it - ranges from CM in a flat three to CDM in a 3-1-4-2. Either way it's the same tactic - show for the central defenders, receive with his back to the direction of play, give it back to the CDs, point a bit, receive the ball, pass it back and when some sort of opening occurs, he's looking over at the diagonal far flank to cut it over there. I mean, fine, if you like that sort of thing. It's credible if it leads to a chance on goal but he is so fucking predictable. All oppositions have to do with Norwood is either press him (because he'll get rid or lose possession very quickly) or move players out to the flanks to deal with the inevitable long punt, because the exposed player out there doesn't now have a marauding Basham or O'Connell as an option. It has to come backwards, across the back and up the other flank. It's so fucking one-note and idiotic. Yet, because Norwood has booted it long, people are as hard as Chinese maths over it. That's not football. Football is scoring goals and winning games.

The rest of his game - he has zero deftness and pace, so he can't drop a shoulder and sell a player to get past him. Nor does he run with the ball twenty yards with space in front of him to get oppositions on the back foot. His crossing is still limited as is his supposed wand of a right foot which we have seen send shots high, wide and handsome. He also is desperately crap at tackling and winning the ball, something I feel is an essential ingredient of any midfielder. I also feel that he has been substandard for so long, any passable outing (in particular when the opposition allow him time in the centre of the park) is judged as a worldy. I have been guilty of this in My Takes ... where on reflection the midfield players we have had in the past - Brown, Gannon, Hutchinson, Duffy, McCall, Hockey, Coutts to name but a few, have all been far better examples of players who have a multitude of skills in their toolset and not many of them kicked the ball 50 yards at fifteen feet above the turf into a dead end. They would set up one-twos, advance up the pitch with the ball at their feet, be difficult to dispossess, tackle hard and jockey and either make goals or score them. Norwood is a sentimental relic now of four seasons ago ... a man who is still playing a game we no longer should be playing because provenly, Wilderball is dead and buried. We need a better option now, a fast, intelligent playmaker who can exploit the potential of Ndaiye, Brewster and Berge and show in timely fashion on the end of a dazzling move to crack in a shot from outside the box. They are out there ... I just feel Sheffield United is still wedded to picking him first simply because he is a crowd pleaser. He is a systemic example of what is fundamentally wrong with Sheffield United, and he needs replacing.

I am very willing to be proven wrong this season but I feel he is going to be a pretty poor and inexcusable lodestone round our necks again and we need and deserve a lot better.

Footnote: If you are responding to this, do me a fucking favour and leave the ad hominem out and the 'pommpey has a thing about Norwood' shit out of it will you? I have countered Bergen's very well resourced and well-argued case for Norwood with my own opinion on the player. If you can't offer real evidence to counter and debate like a grown up, please fucking leave it out, eh?

pommpey
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Completely agree and you and myself have been saying this since the 1st year being in the prem and he still hasn’t been replaced
 
Whatever you think about Norwood- you watch a match like last night at Mansfield- you have to think there are about 8 players who took part that you would lose before Norwood.
 

Often thought Norwood is a weird one to assess.
Many players are allrounders generally quite good at many things.

Where as Norwood has massive strengths and massive weaknesses, hence it's understandable how he splits opinion.
In some games last season he played really well...easily one of our best players
Then there was games he struggled badly and was one of our worse players.

Think his style/ standard does deserve discussion and scrutiny, so thanks for raising this Bergenblade.
Let him play and he's an excellent player...he's a play maker but he needs options (movement and runners).
Stop him or have team mates around him that don't suite his style and he's ineffectual.
I always tend to think Norwood is poor without the ball, no physicality, a weak and poor tackler, so he needs to foul every now and then.
Another point is that Norwood is a one trick pony, it's the long pass playing like a quarter back in US football.

I also agree with an earlier comment regards Fleck.
I often think he hides, so he never has a terrible game, he's always OK for us, a steady 6 or 7 out of 10.
He seems happy to stay deep, in and around the centre circle area playing very safe short sideways passes
He no longer make forward runs from deep, no longer tries to score and no longer attempts difficult passes.
At least Norwood tries to play difficult defence splitting passes, so it's more noticeable when they don't work.
 
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Bergen Blade said:
That is true, it's not really a position/role where it's a good idea to roam around. Instead he's dropped deep to at least get on the ball, but this has seen us have him + 3 centre halves holding back, meaning we're outnumbered further forward.
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When he drops back in , as in clip 2 he is taking at least one midfielder with him and creating space in the middle, it is up to our other players to take advantage of that space , unfortunately Berge and Fleck(now) dont do this often enough and it is left to MGW and Ndaiye to do it ,which takes an attacker out of the game.
 
pommpey said:
Typically, I'll disagree on most aspects.

For too long I feel we have been charmed by a man who seems to have one speciality in his arsenal, that being to thump the ball over the heads of most of the park to the far touchline. This worked extremely well in the preceding two seasons to the PL campaign because under Wilder we were developing a deadly method of using Basham and O'Connell to play the overlapping centrebacks schtick. Oppositions, especially at lower levels, simply didn't know how to deal with it and we scored a lot of matchwinning goals by having Norwood collect and deliver. First season in the PL was much the same too. But like most methods, if you play like it too long the opposition will suss it and I have said before and I'll say it again, post-lockdown and Villa away it was clear those days were over and Norwood's purple patch was too. I'd be interested to see the assists and goals stats before and after lockdown where Norwood is concerned as a ratio of minutes played. His position - whichever way people want to see it - ranges from CM in a flat three to CDM in a 3-1-4-2. Either way it's the same tactic - show for the central defenders, receive with his back to the direction of play, give it back to the CDs, point a bit, receive the ball, pass it back and when some sort of opening occurs, he's looking over at the diagonal far flank to cut it over there. I mean, fine, if you like that sort of thing. It's credible if it leads to a chance on goal but he is so fucking predictable. All oppositions have to do with Norwood is either press him (because he'll get rid or lose possession very quickly) or move players out to the flanks to deal with the inevitable long punt, because the exposed player out there doesn't now have a marauding Basham or O'Connell as an option. It has to come backwards, across the back and up the other flank. It's so fucking one-note and idiotic. Yet, because Norwood has booted it long, people are as hard as Chinese maths over it. That's not football. Football is scoring goals and winning games.

The rest of his game - he has zero deftness and pace, so he can't drop a shoulder and sell a player to get past him. Nor does he run with the ball twenty yards with space in front of him to get oppositions on the back foot. His crossing is still limited as is his supposed wand of a right foot which we have seen send shots high, wide and handsome. He also is desperately crap at tackling and winning the ball, something I feel is an essential ingredient of any midfielder. I also feel that he has been substandard for so long, any passable outing (in particular when the opposition allow him time in the centre of the park) is judged as a worldy. I have been guilty of this in My Takes ... where on reflection the midfield players we have had in the past - Brown, Gannon, Hutchinson, Duffy, McCall, Hockey, Coutts to name but a few, have all been far better examples of players who have a multitude of skills in their toolset and not many of them kicked the ball 50 yards at fifteen feet above the turf into a dead end. They would set up one-twos, advance up the pitch with the ball at their feet, be difficult to dispossess, tackle hard and jockey and either make goals or score them. Norwood is a sentimental relic now of four seasons ago ... a man who is still playing a game we no longer should be playing because provenly, Wilderball is dead and buried. We need a better option now, a fast, intelligent playmaker who can exploit the potential of Ndaiye, Brewster and Berge and show in timely fashion on the end of a dazzling move to crack in a shot from outside the box. They are out there ... I just feel Sheffield United is still wedded to picking him first simply because he is a crowd pleaser. He is a systemic example of what is fundamentally wrong with Sheffield United, and he needs replacing.

I am very willing to be proven wrong this season but I feel he is going to be a pretty poor and inexcusable lodestone round our necks again and we need and deserve a lot better.

Footnote: If you are responding to this, do me a fucking favour and leave the ad hominem out and the 'pommpey has a thing about Norwood' shit out of it will you? I have countered Bergen's very well resourced and well-argued case for Norwood with my own opinion on the player. If you can't offer real evidence to counter and debate like a grown up, please fucking leave it out, eh?

pommpey
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No offence Pommps but you really do have a bit of a thing about Norwood! XD
Loss of any left sided attacking threat did for Norwood's game when we lost JOC in the prem. IMO anyways.
 
mattbianco1 said:
View attachment 139676
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Not surprising to see him high up here. He's been very central to the way we play and always makes himself available. I think a lot of the forward passes are when we decide to switch play from one side to the other, i.e. he receives a backwards pass and finds a teammate in front of him.

It also feels like a lot of the passes into the box happen after we've built attacks down the right hand side, pass it back for him to cross it. He's often unmarked in these situations, but his crossing can be good.

One goal and four assists over a season doesn't sound a lot from a midfielder who also take a lot of set pieces though. He's had a couple of assists in pre season and almost scored from open play at Burton so it may be something he aims to improve.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Often thought Norwood is a weird one to assess.
Many players are allrounders generally quite good at many things.

Where as Norwood has massive strengths and massive weaknesses, hence it's understandable how he splits opinion.
In some games last season he played really well...easily one of our best players
Then there was games he struggled badly and was one of our worse players.

Think his style/ standard does deserve discussion and scrutiny, so thanks for raising this Bergenblade.
Let him play and he's an excellent player...he's a play maker but he needs options (movement and runners).
Stop him or have team mates around him that don't suite his style and he's ineffectual.
I always tend to think Norwood is poor without the ball, no physicality, a weak and poor tackler, so he needs to foul every now and then.
Another point is that Norwood is a one trick pony, it's the long pass playing like a quarter back in US football.

I also agree with an earlier comment regards Fleck.
I often think he hides, so he never has a terrible game, he's always OK for us, a steady 6 or 7 out of 10.
He seems happy to stay deep, in and around the centre circle area playing very safe short sideways passes
He no longer make forward runs from deep, no longer tries to score and no longer attempts difficult passes.
At least Norwood tries to play difficult defence splitting passes, so it's more noticeable when they don't work.
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I think there are two reasons why Hecky seems to consider other alternatives to Norwood for the season opener.

1) His limitations when facing teams who press high up the pitch. Watford apparently did this vs Southampton today.

2) Him being a liability defensively, especially against pacey ball carriers.

As shown here; losing a challenge and can only see the opponent get away from him despite carrying the ball:



Hecky knows this and has sometimes taken Norwood off when we are chasing a game and have to push more people forward. We know that this can lead to the opposition hitting us on the break and Norwood just doesn't have the legs to keep up with strong runners. So Hecky's put Fleck in his position as he's more mobile, and that's what we tried from the start today. Looking at Watford's squad they look a pacey, athletic side. Although I think Hecky rates Norwood and appreciates his good qualities, I think he's worried he may struggle against them next Monday.
 
Bergen Blade said:
I think there are two reasons why Hecky seems to consider other alternatives to Norwood for the season opener.

1) His limitations when facing teams who press high up the pitch. Watford apparently did this vs Southampton today.

2) Him being a liability defensively, especially against pacey ball carriers.

As shown here; losing a challenge and can only see the opponent get away from him despite carrying the ball:



Hecky knows this and has sometimes taken Norwood off when we are chasing a game and have to push more people forward. We know that this can lead to the opposition hitting us on the break and Norwood just doesn't have the legs to keep up with strong runners. So Hecky's put Fleck in his position as he's more mobile, and that's what we tried from the start today. Looking at Watford's squad they look a pacey, athletic side. Although I think Hecky rates Norwood and appreciates his good qualities, I think he's worried he may struggle against them next Monday.
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It didn't work though Bergen and was abandoned at half time. Berge was sluggish and too deep and Osborn and Fleck were filling the same space at times. I agree we need to solve the problem of Norwood being marked out of games but playing Osborn in a 3 up front or as a 10 didn't solve anything as was the case against Reading at Home last season when the formation was also changed after 45 minutes.

To play that starting formation we need a player out wide pacey and capable of going past players with supporting midfielders of equal ability. Thats not Osborn.

Our build up play was laboured and Barnsley just adopted what Scunthorpe and Mansfield did before them sit deep in numbers and wait for the mistakes. Yet 24 hours earlier the virtual second string with Norwood playing higher showed how the midfield should work. Arblaster playing deep and Coulibaly had the attributes to go past players at pace and we got up the field much quicker. Chalk and cheese performances in 24 hours.

PH said the performances in the 2 games would determine his selection decisions. On that basis a number of those who played against Burton should be starting but that won't happen. Fleck and Osborn didn't work neither did Berge playing deep or wide right.

Until we get the likes of Doyle fit and hopefully Khedra over the line we don't possess the players capable of playing 3-4-3 or 5-2-3. 3-4-2-1 has to be the starting formation if we want to get off to a good start with Berge being one of the 2 10's. Unfortunately that means the 2 deep lying midfield players are a combination of Fleck, Osborn or Norwood who lack the physical presence, quick feet or pace to get out of a press.

I'd rather we start with the dour flat 3 with Norwood in the team against Watford than experiment when we don't currently possess the tools to effectively change shape.
 
blade67 said:
Interesting stuff. It was my view that our problems in PL season 2, was not that teams worked out that Norwood needed marking, it was that JOC and Fleck got injured, Enda and Lunny lost form and a couple of forwards lowered their efforts, and so the options shrank to everything through Norwood, and he got slaughtered by the standard of player at that level. Hopefully, those other options you mention step up.
Click to expand...
The player we particularly missed was JOC. I firmly believe that if we had not lost him we would not have been relegated. Not only was he an excellent defender but he was integral and completely an essential part of our attacking options using the "overlapping centre backs". When we lost him we seemed clueless offensively as well as defensively.

Having said that I entirely agree that some terms have worked out that if you mark Norwood you strangle us and stop us playing.
 
Addison said:
It didn't work though Bergen and was abandoned at half time. Berge was sluggish and too deep and Osborn and Fleck were filling the same space at times. I agree we need to solve the problem of Norwood being marked out of games but playing Osborn in a 3 up front or as a 10 didn't solve anything as was the case against Reading at Home last season when the formation was also changed after 45 minutes.

To play that starting formation we need a player out wide pacey and capable of going past players with supporting midfielders of equal ability. Thats not Osborn.

Our build up play was laboured and Barnsley just adopted what Scunthorpe and Mansfield did before them sit deep in numbers and wait for the mistakes. Yet 24 hours earlier the virtual second string with Norwood playing higher showed how the midfield should work. Arblaster playing deep and Coulibaly had the attributes to go past players at pace and we got up the field much quicker. Chalk and cheese performances in 24 hours.

PH said the performances in the 2 games would determine his selection decisions. On that basis a number of those who played against Burton should be starting but that won't happen. Fleck and Osborn didn't work neither did Berge playing deep or wide right.

Until we get the likes of Doyle fit and hopefully Khedra over the line we don't possess the players capable of playing 3-4-3 or 5-2-3. 3-4-2-1 has to be the starting formation if we want to get off to a good start with Berge being one of the 2 10's. Unfortunately that means the 2 deep lying midfield players are a combination of Fleck, Osborn or Norwood who lack the physical presence, quick feet or pace to get out of a press.

I'd rather we start with the dour flat 3 with Norwood in the team against Watford than experiment when we don't currently possess the tools to effectively change shape.
Click to expand...
Hecky may be so confident about what he gets from Norwood that he thought it was more worthwhile to use this last friendly to practice something else. As you said we played two formations, but my guess is that it was pre-planned, not abandoned because it didn't work first half.

I think Hecky will be happy with some things last night. It wasn't an inspired performance, but we controlled the game and from a defensive perspective things worked ok. We pressed high up the pitch. Osborn wasn't great, but his work rate alongside Brewster and Ndiaye meant we had a pretty effective first line of defence high up. Barnsley wanted to play out from the back, but struggled. This was the same second half though, and we produced a little more.

I thought our basic structure defensively was good. There were only a couple of occasions where Berge and Fleck struggled to cover space, meaning our centre halves were quite comfortable. You may say Fleck doing Norwood's role wasn't tested too much.

Barnsley's chances were that first half free kick, the freak first goal, and then the free kick winner.

From an attacking perspective we didn't impress, but we did push them back and clearly produced more chances.
 
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