Norwood being marked

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Bergen Blade

Bergen Blade

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Oliver Norwood divides opinion among fans. Some thinks he's finished, others see him as key to us playing well.

He can be brilliant. When he first arrived his passing and playmaking was absolutely top class. At times this is still the case. A quick example, in this clip from the Scunthorpe game, he makes two progressive passes, one short and one long:



* Norwood shows his vision and perfect accuracy here, as he's found time and space.


But there have been games where opposition teams manage to reduce his impact. When pressed or marked tightly Norwood can struggle. Often defenders will avoid giving him the ball and when this is the case he's been completely redundant, almost worthless. Sometimes he will receive the ball, but if closed down he lacks the pace and dribbling ability required to shake off a marker. At best a backwards pass is the only thing that's on for him. Like here, and we end up with a long punt forward:




There are ways to avoid this being too big a problem, but Norwood has been so central to our style that we have sometimes looked shocked and clueless when it's happened. In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going. Here's another clip where Scunthorpe marked Norwood, meaning we looked for him a few times, but avoided giving him the ball:



* As can be seen we switch play, Gordon carries it a bit and both Osborn and Berge come short to pick up the ball. Note how Berge makes a little turn to get away from some players and is able to find a forward moving teammate in a bit of space. This is the ability, the slight switch in pace, that Norwood lacks. So I don't think we're looking clueless in this clip, other players are taking initiatives to get something going.


Another example of us managing to create space for Norwood. At first in this clip Norwood is marked and doesn't really show for the ball.





* But our defenders pass it around, and Lowe shows the attribute that can make him a very welcome addition to us this season - i.e. confidence and pace to run on the ball. Scunthorpe chases him and he finds Ndiaye who passes it back to a now unmarked Norwood. Norwood then brilliantly plays in Baldock who crosses for Brewster to score.

Lowe's running on the ball was absolute key to creating the space we, and Norwood, needed, and Scunthorpe just couldn't keep up.



I think there were signs of us being aware of the problem we face when Norwood is being closed down. He's got limitations, but he can also be phenomenal if he's allowed to do what he's good at. Other players have to take more responsibility and we need to avoid playing players who won't do that.



Even then there's more cover in midfield now and Norwood may not have to play every game. If he's completely marked out of the game and we struggle to find any sort of rhythm I think an early substitution may even be a way of addressing it. It doesn't have to mean Norwood is rubbish, just that it's not working in that particular game.

This post has been about his attacking contribution, but the defensive side of his game is also something that needs to be assessed this season.
 

Norwood was fantastic defensively for me last season

I also think that for a lot of the games he's been 'marked out of' coincide with literally everyone else around him in midfield being shite, and Norwood being expected to pick up the slack because he's been our talisman for so long

Hopefully with a player like Doyle coming in, and Fleck dropping out of the team, it won't be as easy at times for teams to match him up like that as there'll be another quality player around him who can create chances and pick out a pass
 
Spot on assessment BB. Too many times last season it happened Florist in 2 games, Blackburn and Coventry being prime examples. Norwood was substituted in 3 of those games. Yesterday in 1 moment young Arblaster showed what Norwood doesn't possess quick feet and the ability to get out of being marked by going past players.

Norwood is integral to how we play but we need to develop a plan B and implement it as you say early in a game when it is not working. Florist at Home was a prime example. We hardly got a kick of the ball in midfield for 60 minutes but when we took him off and changed it we were the better team for the last 30. Again in the first leg of the play off we knew what was coming but waited too long to make the change and lost the game.

I've felt for some time we need a left footed DM enforcer alongside Norwood 6 foot plus to provide protection. Not sure where we find one but we've been missing that type of player for some time. Young Coulibaly although right footed did play down the left for Beerschot, possibly a short term option but we need to solve this current inability to deal with the man marking of Norwood sooner rather than later.
 
I think we could do worse..

He's never injured is he.. So for me he's alright..

Shouldnt have taken that first pen though, just sayin..
 
Bergen Blade said:
Oliver Norwood divides opinion among fans. Some thinks he's finished, others see him as key to us playing well.

He can be brilliant. When he first arrived his passing and playmaking was absolutely top class. At times this is still the case. A quick example, in this clip from the Scunthorpe game, he makes two progressive passes, one short and one long:



* Norwood shows his vision and perfect accuracy here, as he's found time and space.


But there have been games where opposition teams manage to reduce his impact. When pressed or marked tightly Norwood can struggle. Often defenders will avoid giving him the ball and when this is the case he's been completely redundant, almost worthless. Sometimes he will receive the ball, but if closed down he lacks the pace and dribbling ability required to shake off a marker. At best a backwards pass is the only thing that's on for him. Like here, and we end up with a long punt forward:




There are ways to avoid this being too big a problem, but Norwood has been so central to our style that we have sometimes looked shocked and clueless when it's happened. In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going. Here's another clip where Scunthorpe marked Norwood, meaning we looked for him a few times, but avoided giving him the ball:



* As can be seen we switch play, Gordon carries it a bit and both Osborn and Berge come short to pick up the ball. Note how Berge makes a little turn to get away from some players and is able to find a forward moving teammate in a bit of space. This is the ability, the slight switch in pace, that Norwood lacks. So I don't think we're looking clueless in this clip, other players are taking initiatives to get something going.


Another example of us managing to create space for Norwood. At first in this clip Norwood is marked and doesn't really show for the ball.





* But our defenders pass it around, and Lowe shows the attribute that can make him a very welcome addition to us this season - i.e. confidence and pace to run on the ball. Scunthorpe chases him and he finds Ndiaye who passes it back to a now unmarked Norwood. Norwood then brilliantly plays in Baldock who crosses for Brewster to score.

Lowe's running on the ball was absolute key to creating the space we, and Norwood, needed, and Scunthorpe just couldn't keep up.



I think there were signs of us being aware of the problem we face when Norwood is being closed down. He's got limitations, but he can also be phenomenal if he's allowed to do what he's good at. Other players have to take more responsibility and we need to avoid playing players who won't do that.



Even then there's more cover in midfield now and Norwood may not have to play every game. If he's completely marked out of the game and we struggle to find any sort of rhythm I think an early substitution may even be a way of addressing it. It doesn't have to mean Norwood is rubbish, just that it's not working in that particular game.

This post has been about his attacking contribution, but the defensive side of his game is also something that needs to be assessed this season.
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff. It was my view that our problems in PL season 2, was not that teams worked out that Norwood needed marking, it was that JOC and Fleck got injured, Enda and Lunny lost form and a couple of forwards lowered their efforts, and so the options shrank to everything through Norwood, and he got slaughtered by the standard of player at that level. Hopefully, those other options you mention step up.
 
Bergen Blade said:
Oliver Norwood divides opinion among fans. Some thinks he's finished, others see him as key to us playing well.

He can be brilliant. When he first arrived his passing and playmaking was absolutely top class. At times this is still the case. A quick example, in this clip from the Scunthorpe game, he makes two progressive passes, one short and one long:



* Norwood shows his vision and perfect accuracy here, as he's found time and space.


But there have been games where opposition teams manage to reduce his impact. When pressed or marked tightly Norwood can struggle. Often defenders will avoid giving him the ball and when this is the case he's been completely redundant, almost worthless. Sometimes he will receive the ball, but if closed down he lacks the pace and dribbling ability required to shake off a marker. At best a backwards pass is the only thing that's on for him. Like here, and we end up with a long punt forward:




There are ways to avoid this being too big a problem, but Norwood has been so central to our style that we have sometimes looked shocked and clueless when it's happened. In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going. Here's another clip where Scunthorpe marked Norwood, meaning we looked for him a few times, but avoided giving him the ball:



* As can be seen we switch play, Gordon carries it a bit and both Osborn and Berge come short to pick up the ball. Note how Berge makes a little turn to get away from some players and is able to find a forward moving teammate in a bit of space. This is the ability, the slight switch in pace, that Norwood lacks. So I don't think we're looking clueless in this clip, other players are taking initiatives to get something going.


Another example of us managing to create space for Norwood. At first in this clip Norwood is marked and doesn't really show for the ball.





* But our defenders pass it around, and Lowe shows the attribute that can make him a very welcome addition to us this season - i.e. confidence and pace to run on the ball. Scunthorpe chases him and he finds Ndiaye who passes it back to a now unmarked Norwood. Norwood then brilliantly plays in Baldock who crosses for Brewster to score.

Lowe's running on the ball was absolute key to creating the space we, and Norwood, needed, and Scunthorpe just couldn't keep up.



I think there were signs of us being aware of the problem we face when Norwood is being closed down. He's got limitations, but he can also be phenomenal if he's allowed to do what he's good at. Other players have to take more responsibility and we need to avoid playing players who won't do that.



Even then there's more cover in midfield now and Norwood may not have to play every game. If he's completely marked out of the game and we struggle to find any sort of rhythm I think an early substitution may even be a way of addressing it. It doesn't have to mean Norwood is rubbish, just that it's not working in that particular game.

This post has been about his attacking contribution, but the defensive side of his game is also something that needs to be assessed this season.
Click to expand...


Good analysis Bergen, I've been saying for years that we need an energetic tackling midfielder next to Norwood. In the same mould you'd expect from say Kante. Norwood drops deep to get possession and is also expected to get back to cover. We need someone next to him who also drops deep but does the legwork while freeing up Norwood to pick passes. He'd have played for years in the top flight if he wasn't poor under pressing.

If we play two sitting midfielders, then Berge can play further forward, supporting the strikers. The wingback can also play further forward as there are two covering midfielders. Like Brazil did with Cafu and Carlos. Although they obviously played 4-4-2 their most important players were their DMCs.

We'd set-up like this:

---------------------Wes
-----------Anel-------Egan------Clark
--Baldock-------Norwood----DMC------RND
-------------------------Berge
---------------Ndiaye---------Brewster

The problem we had too often with wingbacks last season was that they were too deep, so we relied on MGW and Ndiaye to drop deep to get the ball. In this formation, Ndiaye and Berge would drop to collect, pulling their markers out of position, while Brewster would play off the shoulder of the last man and run the channels. The wingbacks would be up with Brewster to support and cut inside to exploit those gaps.
 
robbiez666 said:
Good analysis Bergen, I've been saying for years that we need an energetic tackling midfielder next to Norwood. In the same mould you'd expect from say Kante. Norwood drops deep to get possession and is also expected to get back to cover. We need someone next to him who also drops deep but does the legwork while freeing up Norwood to pick passes. He'd have played for years in the top flight if he wasn't poor under pressing.

If we play two sitting midfielders, then Berge can play further forward, supporting the strikers. The wingback can also play further forward as there are two covering midfielders. Like Brazil did with Cafu and Carlos. Although they obviously played 4-4-2 their most important players were their DMCs.

We'd set-up like this:

---------------------Wes
-----------Anel-------Egan------Clark
--Baldock-------Norwood----DMC------RND
-------------------------Berge
---------------Ndiaye---------Brewster

The problem we had too often with wingbacks last season was that they were too deep, so we relied on MGW and Ndiaye to drop deep to get the ball. In this formation, Ndiaye and Berge would drop to collect, pulling their markers out of position, while Brewster would play off the shoulder of the last man and run the channels. The wingbacks would be up with Brewster to support and cut inside to exploit those gaps.
Click to expand...
Can’t agree with that. I hate 3 centre backs plus 2 dms. That’s half your outfield players with little creativity in the final third. It works if we went back to overlapping centre backs and might work with all out attacking wing backs but I still think you need a midfielder driving from deep. I’d much rather see an athletic midfielder who can cover the ground and can get involved in attacks. Difficult to find, I accept.
 

BushBlade said:
Can’t agree with that. I hate 3 centre backs plus 2 dms. That’s half your outfield players with little creativity in the final third. It works if we went back to overlapping centre backs and might work with all out attacking wing backs but I still think you need a midfielder driving from deep. I’d much rather see an athletic midfielder who can cover the ground and can get involved in attacks. Difficult to find, I accept.
Click to expand...
Fair. If we had Kante he would box to box but I'm not convinced we'll be signing someone good enough to do that to a top Championship standard.
 
Bergen Blade said:
Oliver Norwood divides opinion among fans. Some thinks he's finished, others see him as key to us playing well.

He can be brilliant. When he first arrived his passing and playmaking was absolutely top class. At times this is still the case. A quick example, in this clip from the Scunthorpe game, he makes two progressive passes, one short and one long:



* Norwood shows his vision and perfect accuracy here, as he's found time and space.


But there have been games where opposition teams manage to reduce his impact. When pressed or marked tightly Norwood can struggle. Often defenders will avoid giving him the ball and when this is the case he's been completely redundant, almost worthless. Sometimes he will receive the ball, but if closed down he lacks the pace and dribbling ability required to shake off a marker. At best a backwards pass is the only thing that's on for him. Like here, and we end up with a long punt forward:




There are ways to avoid this being too big a problem, but Norwood has been so central to our style that we have sometimes looked shocked and clueless when it's happened. In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going. Here's another clip where Scunthorpe marked Norwood, meaning we looked for him a few times, but avoided giving him the ball:



* As can be seen we switch play, Gordon carries it a bit and both Osborn and Berge come short to pick up the ball. Note how Berge makes a little turn to get away from some players and is able to find a forward moving teammate in a bit of space. This is the ability, the slight switch in pace, that Norwood lacks. So I don't think we're looking clueless in this clip, other players are taking initiatives to get something going.


Another example of us managing to create space for Norwood. At first in this clip Norwood is marked and doesn't really show for the ball.





* But our defenders pass it around, and Lowe shows the attribute that can make him a very welcome addition to us this season - i.e. confidence and pace to run on the ball. Scunthorpe chases him and he finds Ndiaye who passes it back to a now unmarked Norwood. Norwood then brilliantly plays in Baldock who crosses for Brewster to score.

Lowe's running on the ball was absolute key to creating the space we, and Norwood, needed, and Scunthorpe just couldn't keep up.



I think there were signs of us being aware of the problem we face when Norwood is being closed down. He's got limitations, but he can also be phenomenal if he's allowed to do what he's good at. Other players have to take more responsibility and we need to avoid playing players who won't do that.



Even then there's more cover in midfield now and Norwood may not have to play every game. If he's completely marked out of the game and we struggle to find any sort of rhythm I think an early substitution may even be a way of addressing it. It doesn't have to mean Norwood is rubbish, just that it's not working in that particular game.

This post has been about his attacking contribution, but the defensive side of his game is also something that needs to be assessed this season.
Click to expand...

For me, this was the key phrase:

"In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going."

It's easy to sit a man on Norwood if he's playing alongside Jimmy and Sander is in one of his lackadaisical days.

Similar to Coutts, we don't have a player who can directly replace his role in the team. Coutts differed to Norwood, didn't have the same passing range though gave it away less than anyone. What they both have in common was that they were both available and wanting the ball.

If others are hiding then this making shutting them down infinitely easier.

I see flashes of this in both Peck and Arblaster though they are very young to be expected to push Norwood.

I don't see Berge as a conductor in the same way.

For this season, we don't have a way to play without him. But to get the best we need the other midfielder(s) to show more ownership. Either Jimmy becomes John very quickly, Coulibaly kicks ok in leaps and bounds or whoever, but someone has to or it will just make it all too easy.

At least he has an intelligent player in front of him once more. He's had Duffy and he's had Didzy and now he has N'Diaye but they can't do it on their own.
 
Champagneblade said:
For me, this was the key phrase:

"In short other players have to contribute to get our attacks going."

It's easy to sit a man on Norwood if he's playing alongside Jimmy and Sander is in one of his lackadaisical days.

Similar to Coutts, we don't have a player who can directly replace his role in the team. Coutts differed to Norwood, didn't have the same passing range though gave it away less than anyone. What they both have in common was that they were both available and wanting the ball.

If others are hiding then this making shutting them down infinitely easier.

I see flashes of this in both Peck and Arblaster though they are very young to be expected to push Norwood.

I don't see Berge as a conductor in the same way.

For this season, we don't have a way to play without him. But to get the best we need the other midfielder(s) to show more ownership. Either Jimmy becomes John very quickly, Coulibaly kicks ok in leaps and bounds or whoever, but someone has to or it will just make it all too easy.

At least he has an intelligent player in front of him once more. He's had Duffy and he's had Didzy and now he has N'Diaye but they can't do it on their own.
Click to expand...
and it was noticeable when we and he were having a difficult patch last season that playing Hourihane next to him meant we have two midfielders creating and the opposition couldn't mark both of them out of the game. I presume this is one of the reasons we signed Doyle.
 
robbiez666 said:
and it was noticeable when we and he were having a difficult patch last season that playing Hourihane next to him meant we have two midfielders creating and the opposition couldn't mark both of them out of the game. I presume this is one of the reasons we signed Doyle.
Click to expand...
That did happen sometimes but it wasn’t the usual outcome when they played together. We usually got bogged down.

Norwood’s positioning is important. Under Slav he was sitting far too deep, standing next to Egan almost, which made for ponderous progress upfield. He complained about this after Slav went but he did occasionally slip back into doing it. He really does need to make sure he stays a bit higher up the pitch.
 
Revolution said:
That did happen sometimes but it wasn’t the usual outcome when they played together. We usually got bogged down.

Norwood’s positioning is important. Under Slav he was sitting far too deep, standing next to Egan almost, which made for ponderous progress upfield. He complained about this after Slav went but he did occasionally slip back into doing it. He really does need to make sure he stays a bit higher up the pitch.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but it did work really well when they first started playing together. After a few games it became less effective.
 
It is a tough one he is needed further up the pitch but if he does venture too far forward he can be caught out. A forward just needs a step on him he will never catch them as he lacks speed.
 
Fulham pressed him in the last home game of the season and he coped very well. It’s not quite as simple as set out in the OP (although I always love Bergen’s analyses).
 
No player is an expert in all parts of the game, Norwood is a specialist ball player and outstanding passer of the ball. All our recent managers have realised his importance for the team. However what managers also need to understand is any players weakness and set the team up to cover for this. A sweeper (or three centre backs) should be enough cover his defensive frailties!
 
Fantastic thread, but you could have saved time by sayings one trick pony time on the ball great. Man marked not worth a barclays bank. Personally I would cash in and get shot 👍
 
Toronto Blade said:
It is a tough one he is needed further up the pitch but if he does venture too far forward he can be caught out. A forward just needs a step on him he will never catch them as he lacks speed.
Click to expand...
That is true, it's not really a position/role where it's a good idea to roam around. Instead he's dropped deep to at least get on the ball, but this has seen us have him + 3 centre halves holding back, meaning we're outnumbered further forward.
 
Stanthemanfan said:
One thing I will never hold against Norwood is he never hides and wants the ball, unlike fleck who I think sometimes can't be arsed
Click to expand...
Agree that he never hides, and it's a good quality that he's extra eager to get on the ball shortly after making a mistake. It shows he is unaffected by it, and teammates can see he's ready to continue playing like it never happened. Other players will often hide or play it safe for the next ten minutes after such mistakes.
 

Bergen Blade said:
This post has been about his attacking contribution, but the defensive side of his game is also something that needs to be assessed this season.
Click to expand...

Surprised you didnt include his limp shot that went wide.
 
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