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Cerberus Blade said:
That depends, I guess, on what is "normal" for you. Which may reflect the environment you've been brought up in, or the environment you currently live or work in. I come from a working class background, my father was a coal miner, I grew up in a coal-mining village. Bad language (let's call it that) is not exactly uncommon in those social circles - but - and maybe this is also a generation thing - it was never acceptable for men to swear in front of women or children - or to even be heard swearing loudly in public. We were all low-life to some degree, but those who used foul language like that were especially low life and looked down upon. I'm sure my father would have used bad language as part of everyday speech at work with his coal mining mates - normal in that environment - but it stopped at the door when he was home. Likewise, I went to a large comprehensive school in Sheffield and it was normal to swear amongst mates - but no I didn't swear at home - I wouldn't have dared!

The kind of places I've worked, which was initially in public service roles, and later in my career, in a professional business environment, I'd have literally been fired for using that kind of language in the workplace. Late at night in a bar with a few close workmates in private -no problem. But not openly at work. Absolutely not allowed or even remotely expected. But that isn't the same for all workplaces I accept.

There was an interesting test case a few years ago where a fisherman in Hull, lost his job at the docks for using foul language. I believe he told his boss to "F off" and the boss fired him on the spot as a result. The guy took it to tribunal and they found in favour of the fisherman. The reason they said was that this kind of language was "common parlance" i.e. "normal" in that environment and therefore it did not constitute gross misconduct at work - which legally is the only thing you can be fired directly for, without prior warning. So absolutely, the environment that you are in does dictate whether language is acceptable or not.

I must admit, I am still occasionally shocked by foul language in public. I'm particularly shocked by how it seems to have become "acceptable". And I'm even more shocked by how we hear this from the voice of women in public. I was in a bar in Sheffield the other night and three girls sat behind me, every other word was "fuck" and "shit" with a good sprinkling of "twat" and "bastard" thrown in. I looked at these girls - they didn't look rough or anything - in fact they looked respectable - but the language coming from their mouths - put it this way - if I was single and they'd have looked like Miss World I wouldn't have been interested.

I think, like a lot of things, we've become desensitised to it because it's been allowed to grow unchecked. It's an essential part of comedy or drama on TV. It never used to be. I think a lot of the influence has come from the US as well. I really wish we wouldn't copy what they do because it's really not all good and clever. It's in video games and music and everything these days. My son downloaded some song by a rapper a while ago. He played it to me because apparently it's famous for being the fastest, most words, in a rap song. I only heard one word, it went so fast, and that word was "motherfucker". How lovely eh? What a great contribution to our vocabulary the Americans have made with that term!

Maybe you disagree and think there's nothing wrong with it? I'm sure we won't all agree and we don't need to agree either. But I think It's something to do with "respect" - this is a precious value that has been eroded in our society in lots of ways. It means being understanding of others differences and being prepared to act or behave in a way that is expected in the environment you're in, even if it's not your usual style.
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Whatever your views on swearing, being literally fired for them is most unfortunate.
 



Cerberus Blade said:
That depends, I guess, on what is "normal" for you. Which may reflect the environment you've been brought up in, or the environment you currently live or work in. I come from a working class background, my father was a coal miner, I grew up in a coal-mining village. Bad language (let's call it that) is not exactly uncommon in those social circles - but - and maybe this is also a generation thing - it was never acceptable for men to swear in front of women or children - or to even be heard swearing loudly in public. We were all low-life to some degree, but those who used foul language like that were especially low life and looked down upon. I'm sure my father would have used bad language as part of everyday speech at work with his coal mining mates - normal in that environment - but it stopped at the door when he was home. Likewise, I went to a large comprehensive school in Sheffield and it was normal to swear amongst mates - but no I didn't swear at home - I wouldn't have dared!

The kind of places I've worked, which was initially in public service roles, and later in my career, in a professional business environment, I'd have literally been fired for using that kind of language in the workplace. Late at night in a bar with a few close workmates in private -no problem. But not openly at work. Absolutely not allowed or even remotely expected. But that isn't the same for all workplaces I accept.

There was an interesting test case a few years ago where a fisherman in Hull, lost his job at the docks for using foul language. I believe he told his boss to "F off" and the boss fired him on the spot as a result. The guy took it to tribunal and they found in favour of the fisherman. The reason they said was that this kind of language was "common parlance" i.e. "normal" in that environment and therefore it did not constitute gross misconduct at work - which legally is the only thing you can be fired directly for, without prior warning. So absolutely, the environment that you are in does dictate whether language is acceptable or not.

I must admit, I am still occasionally shocked by foul language in public. I'm particularly shocked by how it seems to have become "acceptable". And I'm even more shocked by how we hear this from the voice of women in public. I was in a bar in Sheffield the other night and three girls sat behind me, every other word was "fuck" and "shit" with a good sprinkling of "twat" and "bastard" thrown in. I looked at these girls - they didn't look rough or anything - in fact they looked respectable - but the language coming from their mouths - put it this way - if I was single and they'd have looked like Miss World I wouldn't have been interested.

I think, like a lot of things, we've become desensitised to it because it's been allowed to grow unchecked. It's an essential part of comedy or drama on TV. It never used to be. I think a lot of the influence has come from the US as well. I really wish we wouldn't copy what they do because it's really not all good and clever. It's in video games and music and everything these days. My son downloaded some song by a rapper a while ago. He played it to me because apparently it's famous for being the fastest, most words, in a rap song. I only heard one word, it went so fast, and that word was "motherfucker". How lovely eh? What a great contribution to our vocabulary the Americans have made with that term!

Maybe you disagree and think there's nothing wrong with it? I'm sure we won't all agree and we don't need to agree either. But I think It's something to do with "respect" - this is a precious value that has been eroded in our society in lots of ways. It means being understanding of others differences and being prepared to act or behave in a way that is expected in the environment you're in, even if it's not your usual style.
Click to expand...

Interesting post. As you've commented, context is nearly always the thing that enables us to behave or act in ways we're most comfortable with.

The societal conventions of who you swear in front of are constructs guided by the notion that some members of society, usually female, aren't equipped to handle the abrasive nature of so-called 'bad' language. The fact that some of us refer to it as 'bad' language never fails to puzzle me. I'm a good case in example. I came from an inner London working class family, and my parents attempted to clamp down on any use of swearing by myself. I can understand why, imagine your child going to school and swearing liberally in front of teachers. The havoc this would cause is self-evident, so a childhood is generally a time when you are taught to act and speak in a certain way, mainly without the use of swear words.........but then childhood turns to the teen years and the beginning of adulthood, and once this begins the shackles are well and truly removed where language is concerned. I swear regularly, probably as much as anyone I know, but the use of the word 'respect' has never been something I've had a problem with. I'm 'respectful' to most people, and nearly always without the need to swear, but that's because I don't know them, and familiarity is the key to when, and how much, I swear. When I'm confronted by fully formed adults who complain that I swear to much, and tell me how much they loathe swearing, my response is usually uncomplicated, I tell them not to swear if they find it offensive. I don't like smoking, I don't drink alcohol or the effects this has on those who drink regularly, but I never dream of telling them how to behave.

The example of the Americanism 'motherfucker', and how you perceive it's influence on language and behaviour, is interesting. It's another swear word, one that is now a part of the vocabulary of those who are relaxed about swearing. As for how influential swearing is, how it erodes our general behaviour, how it contributes to our perceptions about other people's worth, is something I've given thought to. I can't say I'm convinced by this argument. I think there are many other factors about the world we live in that contribute to how we react with each other. Television and cinema have an influence on behaviour, although I don't think this influence is sufficiently strong enough to worry me. The world changes, and with it so do we. I did note that although you used almost every swear word going, there was an absence of the word 'cunt', a word that trips off of my tongue with ease. I think the point I'm coming to is that we create our own 'limit's' or 'boundaries' in which we feel comfortable, and when those 'limits' are confronted by the behaviour of others, we respond either aggressively or abruptly, mostly as ways of warning the offending party that behaviour or words that invade these 'boundaries' we've created aren't welcomed.

During my life I've had a variety of jobs, journalism being one such. I've written for high profile newspapers and magazines, both in the UK and America, so you might assume that my interest in, and observance of, language would be central to how I manage to articulate an idea or thought. I think I'm a classic example of being (partially) defined by my upbringing. I don't happen to see swearing as 'wrong', or something that's embraced by those who have a restricted vocabulary, whatever that might mean. Swearing is as much a part of an evolving vocabulary as that changing society that I referred to earlier. Whether you like it or agree with it should only be reflected in your personal life. Attempting to tell others how they should behave will generally be met with a response that isn't favourably disposed to your suggestion. Of course, if that behaviour includes such ideas as racism, homophobia, or acute sexism, then challenging it is down to the individual, especially if they feel they can have a positive influence on those who choose to use language that is harmful to other social groups. What I can't advise on is how brave or foolish you might need to be in such a situation, but from personal experience I've sometimes felt the need to offer a position that is opposite to those who consider it ok to use racist language as if it's the norm. It might be their norm but it's certainly not mine.....but this takes me away from the gist of this post. Swearing shouldn't be consigned to some box marked 'offensive'. It can be used as constructively or descriptively as any other means to capture an idea. If I meet someone for the first time you won't hear me swear, simply because I choose not to assume about the other person's thoughts on swearing. But once we're familiar in a social context, and it's obvious that swearing isn't a problem, well then I'll use whatever language I feel is appropriate. Trust me, I know what I'm fucking talking about.
 
GrayBlade said:
I really hope we've budgeted for replacing those bloody pink seats in John Street and the Kop corner.
Click to expand...

You might not notice them so much next year, on account of more of them being filled with arses than we've got used to :)

Think I'll add "fills pink seat with arse" to the definition of bandwagon jumper on the definition-of-bandwagon-jumper-thread.
 
I should coco said:
I'll ignore your avatar and the one fingered salute.

I was just agreeing with you about the sentiment of being a Blade AND I manged to incorporate some tremendously witty wordplay. Or not, obviously.
Click to expand...

No, you are correct with your first explanation - I'm just having an afternoon of it, drugs aren't working (NHS prescribed) and I'm hot and bothered, in need of a haircut, and want to mix with humanity, so don't take my comments personally......please.
 
itsinyerblood said:
No, you are correct with your first explanation - I'm just having an afternoon of it, drugs aren't working (NHS prescribed) and I'm hot and bothered, in need of a haircut, and want to mix with humanity, so don't take my comments personally......please.
Click to expand...

You can have a pop at me if you like, I haven't had much abuse since I stopped arguing with the lefties on General Chat.

P.S. Know what you mean about the medication, I've been sitting here in a withdrawal induced sweat for the past few hours until I realised I forgot to take my pills this morning.
 



snootyfenooty said:
You can have a pop at me if you like, I haven't had much abuse since I stopped arguing with the lefties on General Chat.

P.S. Know what you mean about the medication, I've been sitting here in a withdrawal induced sweat for the past few hours until I realised I forgot to take my pills this morning.
Click to expand...

I'm smiling......as a libertarian, which in some people's eyes denotes politically left, I've certainly had my share of squabbles, some ongoing with posters who are unbending in their beliefs, but I don't lose sleep, at least where this is concerned.

I'm on Morphine, so it's now a case of waiting for a surgical procedure that just might lessen the pain, but we'll see......age certainly brings the chance to reflect, so there's not a great deal I take to heart....it's where the forum fills a convenient hole, allowing for those distractions that seem incredibly important when, in the bigger picture, it's just football.....the burning tower block in London puts everything else in perspective.
 
Marty_Mcfly said:
Maybe you ought to try and teach your children that everybody is different and some aren't as well off as others, also that some people have manners and some people don't and you should treat others as you would like to be treated. I'm sorry but painting everyone on the Kop as a disrespectful alcoholic with poor language skills isn't exactly respectful behaviour either, it's pompous and makes you sound like a jumped up arrogant cunt. Not saying that you are, just that you sound like one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/09/27/swear-words-intelligence_n_12213206.html
Click to expand...

You can interpret what I write however best suits your argument but I am definitely not painting everyone on the kop, or any other part of the ground for that matter, as being dispectful alcoholics with poor language skills. I said it's a minority - but there are more of them on there than other parts of the ground. That's my experience.

Thanks for the parenting tip btw - I come from a poor working class family - I can assure you I've taught my kids about haves and have nots having lived it myself. They don't have to live like I did fortunately, because I realised many years ago that it is possible to get on in life if you have respect for people and property and work hard, have manners and treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.

Unfortunately for some folks, not being happy about foul language and moronic drunken behaviour does make me a snob. Good! I'm happy about that if it means they see me as very different to them. Because I am.
 
Cerberus Blade said:
You can interpret what I write however best suits your argument but I am definitely not painting everyone on the kop, or any other part of the ground for that matter, as being dispectful alcoholics with poor language skills. I said it's a minority - but there are more of them on there than other parts of the ground. That's my experience.

Thanks for the parenting tip btw - I come from a poor working class family - I can assure you I've taught my kids about haves and have nots having lived it myself. They don't have to live like I did fortunately, because I realised many years ago that it is possible to get on in life if you have respect for people and property and work hard, have manners and treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.

Unfortunately for some folks, not being happy about foul language and moronic drunken behaviour does make me a snob. Good! I'm happy about that if it means they see me as very different to them. Because I am.
Click to expand...

Maybe my age but agree with you . However coming over as a preacher of virtue can knock the view to others .

It's life but that doesn't mean it's right .
 
itsinyerblood said:
Interesting post. As you've commented, context is nearly always the thing that enables us to behave or act in ways we're most comfortable with.

The societal conventions of who you swear in front of are constructs guided by the notion that some members of society, usually female, aren't equipped to handle the abrasive nature of so-called 'bad' language. The fact that some of us refer to it as 'bad' language never fails to puzzle me. I'm a good case in example. I came from an inner London working class family, and my parents attempted to clamp down on any use of swearing by myself. I can understand why, imagine your child going to school and swearing liberally in front of teachers. The havoc this would cause is self-evident, so a childhood is generally a time when you are taught to act and speak in a certain way, mainly without the use of swear words.........but then childhood turns to the teen years and the beginning of adulthood, and once this begins the shackles are well and truly removed where language is concerned. I swear regularly, probably as much as anyone I know, but the use of the word 'respect' has never been something I've had a problem with. I'm 'respectful' to most people, and nearly always without the need to swear, but that's because I don't know them, and familiarity is the key to when, and how much, I swear. When I'm confronted by fully formed adults who complain that I swear to much, and tell me how much they loathe swearing, my response is usually uncomplicated, I tell them not to swear if they find it offensive. I don't like smoking, I don't drink alcohol or the effects this has on those who drink regularly, but I never dream of telling them how to behave.

The example of the Americanism 'motherfucker', and how you perceive it's influence on language and behaviour, is interesting. It's another swear word, one that is now a part of the vocabulary of those who are relaxed about swearing. As for how influential swearing is, how it erodes our general behaviour, how it contributes to our perceptions about other people's worth, is something I've given thought to. I can't say I'm convinced by this argument. I think there are many other factors about the world we live in that contribute to how we react with each other. Television and cinema have an influence on behaviour, although I don't think this influence is sufficiently strong enough to worry me. The world changes, and with it so do we. I did note that although you used almost every swear word going, there was an absence of the word 'cunt', a word that trips off of my tongue with ease. I think the point I'm coming to is that we create our own 'limit's' or 'boundaries' in which we feel comfortable, and when those 'limits' are confronted by the behaviour of others, we respond either aggressively or abruptly, mostly as ways of warning the offending party that behaviour or words that invade these 'boundaries' we've created aren't welcomed.

During my life I've had a variety of jobs, journalism being one such. I've written for high profile newspapers and magazines, both in the UK and America, so you might assume that my interest in, and observance of, language would be central to how I manage to articulate an idea or thought. I think I'm a classic example of being (partially) defined by my upbringing. I don't happen to see swearing as 'wrong', or something that's embraced by those who have a restricted vocabulary, whatever that might mean. Swearing is as much a part of an evolving vocabulary as that changing society that I referred to earlier. Whether you like it or agree with it should only be reflected in your personal life. Attempting to tell others how they should behave will generally be met with a response that isn't favourably disposed to your suggestion. Of course, if that behaviour includes such ideas as racism, homophobia, or acute sexism, then challenging it is down to the individual, especially if they feel they can have a positive influence on those who choose to use language that is harmful to other social groups. What I can't advise on is how brave or foolish you might need to be in such a situation, but from personal experience I've sometimes felt the need to offer a position that is opposite to those who consider it ok to use racist language as if it's the norm. It might be their norm but it's certainly not mine.....but this takes me away from the gist of this post. Swearing shouldn't be consigned to some box marked 'offensive'. It can be used as constructively or descriptively as any other means to capture an idea. If I meet someone for the first time you won't hear me swear, simply because I choose not to assume about the other person's thoughts on swearing. But once we're familiar in a social context, and it's obvious that swearing isn't a problem, well then I'll use whatever language I feel is appropriate. Trust me, I know what I'm fucking talking about.
Click to expand...


Don't disagree with much of that and strongly agree with the first point about context.

And that's one of the main points I'm making. You and I, it sounds like, both swear. But the difference is we consider the context before doing so. Some don't. That's the difference. To behave in such a way that it is likely to cause upset and offence to others, is a clear sign that the person is incapable of showing respect to others - probably because they never been taught it or had it shown to them and just can't change.
 
Cerberus Blade said:
Don't disagree with much of that and strongly agree with the first point about context.

And that's one of the main points I'm making. You and I, it sounds like, both swear. But the difference is we consider the context before doing so. Some don't. That's the difference. To behave in such a way that it is likely to cause upset and offence to others, is a clear sign that the person is incapable of showing respect to others - probably because they never been taught it or had it shown to them and just can't change.
Click to expand...

Talking of context, I'd be far more offended by a racist spouting harmful crap than someone who says fuck, bollocks, and cunt several times within a minute.

What you addressed, unknowingly I suspect, is the question of what offends. It's a theme amongst comedians, do they not offend, or do they make their joke that happens to offend a few people? Therein lies the quandary. Being offended isn't, in itself, a reason to consider someone is right. Perhaps they's just overly sensitive, or haven't given any thought to why they respond the way they do. Personally I'm not responsible for why other people get the hump over a few swear words. I'm quite happy to discuss this with them, but acquiescing in their behaviour doesn't do any of us any good. Sometimes I think we just need to agree to disagree......or to understand what's worth getting offended by.
 
One of my favourite comedians is Billy Connolly and he swears like a trooper.

But I'm pretty sure if he was sat next to a young family with kids at a football match he'd curb it a bit. Because he's a genuinely nice guy with respect for others. That's the difference and it's called "class".
 
Cerberus Blade said:
One of my favourite comedians is Billy Connolly and he swears like a trooper.

But I'm pretty sure if he was sat next to a young family with kids at a football match he'd curb it a bit. Because he's a genuinely nice guy with respect for others. That's the difference and it's called "class".
Click to expand...

Exactly, when I'm with my mates, I'm effing and jeffing with the best of them, swearing's a great part of the language, love it, but if me and my friends are on the bus or something where there might be children or just people who don't want to hear it, then I don't swear, and I'll tell my friends not to calm it down if they're being particularly vulgar.

It's about surveying your surroundings and having some manners.

Plus it's a good workout for your vocabulary if you occasionally can't rely on swearing.
 
People swear on the kop. Always have as long as I've been going. If others don't want their kids to hear swearing, don't take them on the kop and expect everyone to modify their behaviour. It's neither realistic nor reasonable. We have a family stand.
 
This thread reminds me of one of my favourite jokes.

Worker: 'Boss, if I called you a cunt would I get the sack?'
Boss: 'Yes, you can't talk like that at work'
Worker: 'What if I just thought you were a cunt?'
Boss: 'No, you can't be disciplined for what you think'
Worker: 'Ok, well in that case, I think you're a cunt'
 
Just watched that interview with George Baldock that United have posted on YouTube, pitch looks nice, no hoardings yet, probably because they're still sorting the pitch out but does anyone have a clue as to whether we're getting fancy LED ones?

To be honest I don't even know why I want them, I couldn't tell you what we advertise around the pitch at gunpoint, it's probably just because they'd make us look swish.
 
Cerberus Blade said:
You can interpret what I write however best suits your argument but I am definitely not painting everyone on the kop, or any other part of the ground for that matter, as being dispectful alcoholics with poor language skills. I said it's a minority - but there are more of them on there than other parts of the ground. That's my experience.

Thanks for the parenting tip btw - I come from a poor working class family - I can assure you I've taught my kids about haves and have nots having lived it myself. They don't have to live like I did fortunately, because I realised many years ago that it is possible to get on in life if you have respect for people and property and work hard, have manners and treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.

Unfortunately for some folks, not being happy about foul language and moronic drunken behaviour does make me a snob. Good! I'm happy about that if it means they see me as very different to them. Because I am.
Click to expand...

In the many, many years I've been going to the game, most of the time on the kop, I've certainly seen plenty of people drinking but not being moronic, which implies they're foolish or stupid.

Don't forgive me if I'm wrong because I don't really give a shit, but it looks to me like you see yourself as above the underclasses who sit on the kop. Maybe you should remember you're 'working class' roots and remember that just because you're better off now, it doesn't make you better.
 



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