New pitch

[metalblade]

Good picture.

But what you describe is the effect of the slope. If that short row in the far corner ran in parallel with the goal line for its full length, it'd be a yard below ground level at the stadium entrance.

Nope it is level at pitch side the rake of the seats follow the old terrace steps of the old Bramall lane end when it was standing, as always with United putting seats on a standing area was a quick fix much like the kop, the rake gets steeper towards the south stand. The pitch is level or as near as damn it I have walked round that track hundreds of times, the Kop/John st corner used to be a bit lower and we had a dip in the pitch near the lane end penalty area where the bombs fell in the war I think this was put right years ago when we dug the lot up and put undersoil heating in.

 

[vorpal blade]

Well metalblade that goes against what I thought but I must say its a thorough explanation.

Do you think the crossbar is horizontal at the Bramall Lane end? Either it is slanted or the seats are....

or the terraces aren't parallel to the goal line (though I wouldn't have thought they'd be so far out of parallel as
to make the crossbar look askew).

The crossbar seemed level with the top of the seats at the left and halfway down the seat back at the right-hand side, looking from the Kop.

 

[vorpal blade]

The easy test is to measure the diagonals of the goal and see if they are equal.

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

Talking of slopes, hillsborough slopes 6 feet from the leppings lane to the kop, that is a huge slope!

The lane does slope from south th john street, even if the pitch is level, the kop and Braman lane lower isn't - which you can see looking at the back of the kop and the rows at the front of the Braman lane end.

The development of the kop is the biggest thing that needs doing and doing right. they should get it done now if they have the money, may as well have it ready for when/if we get back to the top flight.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Well metalblade that goes against what I thought but I must say its a thorough explanation.

Do you think the crossbar is horizontal at the Bramall Lane end? Either it is slanted or the seats are....

or the terraces aren't parallel to the goal line (though I wouldn't have thought they'd be so far out of parallel as
to make the crossbar look askew).

The crossbar seemed level with the top of the seats at the left and halfway down the seat back at the right-hand side, looking from the Kop.

I must admit that I've always thought there was a slope.

Can't for Bradford match to check now,

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

The easy test is to measure the diagonals of the goal and see if they are equal.

Loving your posts in this thread, Vorpal. Can't tell whether you're serious or not!

I'm writing to Phipps about it. Come on Jim, get the the protractor out - we have a right to know!

 

[vorpal blade]

I am serious

 

[vorpal blade]

Metalman, the terraces at the front of the Bramall Lane stand were built in the 1980s. The old terraces were much further back right under the top tier of seats. Do you remember the massive concrete columns that all but blocked the view for the visiting support when it was standing room only down there?

Seeing as it was an entirely new construction the concrete terraces would surely have been constructed level...therefore, if the goal posts are vertical and regulation length and my eyesight not too bad, because the crossbar isn't in-line with those terraces, I still think that it slopes.

I rest my case....

 

[vorpal blade]

 

[Silent Blade]

Talking of slopes, hillsborough slopes 6 feet from the leppings lane to the kop, that is a huge slope!

The lane does slope from south th john street, even if the pitch is level, the kop and Braman lane lower isn't - which you can see looking at the back of the kop and the rows at the front of the Braman lane end.

The development of the kop is the biggest thing that needs doing and doing right. they should get it done now if they have the money, may as well have it ready for when/if we get back to the top flight.

I remember reading in Flashing Blade some years ago that on the pitch, the Kop is 5 feet higher than BL. Can anyone at the club confirm this?

 

[metalblade]

Talking of slopes, hillsborough slopes 6 feet from the leppings lane to the kop, that is a huge slope!

The lane does slope from south th john street, even if the pitch is level, the kop and Braman lane lower isn't - which you can see looking at the back of the kop and the rows at the front of the Braman lane end.

The development of the kop is the biggest thing that needs doing and doing right. they should get it done now if they have the money, may as well have it ready for when/if we get back to the top flight.

Every pool has a deep end

 

[metalblade]

Well metalblade that goes against what I thought but I must say its a thorough explanation.

Do you think the crossbar is horizontal at the Bramall Lane end? Either it is slanted or the seats are....

or the terraces aren't parallel to the goal line (though I wouldn't have thought they'd be so far out of parallel as
to make the crossbar look askew).

The crossbar seemed level with the top of the seats at the left and halfway down the seat back at the right-hand side, looking from the Kop.

I think it is an optical illusion the crossbar seems to be parallel to the upper tier in the photo's I've looked at, notice too the blocks of seats on the lower tier under the Westfield corner are higher than the rest and go a little further back, one thing is for sure nothing is straight on the BLLT.

 

[Kenilworth]

Metalman, the terraces at the front of the Bramall Lane stand were built in the 1980s. The old terraces were much further back right under the top tier of seats. Do you remember the massive concrete columns that all but blocked the view for the visiting support when it was standing room only down there?

Seeing as it was an entirely new construction the concrete terraces would surely have been constructed level...therefore, if the goal posts are vertical and regulation length and my eyesight not too bad, because the crossbar isn't in-line with those terraces, I still think that it slopes.

I rest my case....

Rain drainage on the terraces
Goalposts have to be squared


Anyone remember King Teds first XI pitch at Whitely Woods?
Now that was a slope, across the pitch, at the pavilion end.

Sadly no pavilion now - don't think it's even used for sport any more.
The tea urn that the groundsman used to fill with double builders tea allus sticks in my mind
I'm struggling to remember his name now. It'll come to me in a bit
Anyone recall?

 

[vorpal blade]

Metal - OK, I'll check. Armed with the principles of linear perspective, I can do it from a few photographs....

 

[Kenilworth]

OK, I can do it from a few photographs....

Never in question, feller

 

[vorpal blade]

Rain drainage on the terraces
Goalposts have to be squared.

I'd have allowed the water to drain forwards to the pitch level and I fear you are right about goals having to be rectangular.

 

[Silent Blade]

There are not many flat cricket or football pitches in Sheffield public parks. Played cricket many times at Graves Park and football many times at Concord Park. I remember playing in a National 6 a side cricket tournament at Whirlow Park and many players from other town/cities were stunned to find out that all three cricket pitches were next to each other on a steep slope!

 

[ghandi]

I sat near pitch level on the Kop t'other day. I was amazed to see the slope down from South to North (Cherry Street to John Street) of the pitch. The first time I'd been that low at that end.

I knew it sloped but it was the first time I realised that the goal at the Bramall Lane end hasn't got a horizontal cross-bar. I don't think that goal is a rectangle;
IF, my eye-sight is true (I wear reading glasses and am 52) and IF the terraces of seats are level at that end (against which I was lining the goal up), then the crossbar, like the pitch - slopes. (I hope to be proved wrong btw)

That goal appears to be a parallelogram rather than a rectangle to this observer (I don't even know if that is within the rules??)

SO, if we are sowing a new pitch, might I suggest that the pitch is levelled so that it is dug lower against the South Stand please?

I have previously mentioned that the pitch is close to the water-table as it is BUT if Bramall Lane really is to host important internationals etc. in future I'd have thought rectangular goals are a pre-requisite.

TELL ME I'M WRONG.

You're wrong and you need a new optician.

 

[vorpal blade]

May be Ghandi,

but "there's none so blind".....

as they say.

 

[vorpal blade]

I am in a position to announce initial results of the forensic examination of the photographs, re. The Mystery of the Sloping Crossbar.

 

[JohnDenver]

There are not many flat cricket or football pitches in Sheffield public parks. Played cricket many times at Graves Park and football many times at Concord Park. I remember playing in a National 6 a side cricket tournament at Whirlow Park and many players from other town/cities were stunned to find out that all three cricket pitches were next to each other on a steep slope!

The slope on the lower Graves pitches is brutal. Players are scared to shoot in case they're asked to fetch it after.

 

[vorpal blade]

with regret, have proved almost entirely unproductive......


If lines are parallel, then they should appear to meet at the same vanishing point, the schoolboy's example being railway tracks on a flat landscape that appear to meet at the horizon. So you ought to be able to show which lines are parallel to which by tracing them from photographs. Notwithstanding that this linear perspective is merely an approximation of the true illusion which is that our eyes perceive straight lines as curved, as do cameras (look how the front of the Kop roof appears curved in the above photograph).

Now, the green dashed lines pick up on elements of the structure of the Bramall Lane stand, roof, front wall of the 'balcony' which ought to be parallel and they have their own vanishing point (VP1). The goal line and the crossbar seem to have their own (VP2) which, if the land slopes, should be lower than VP1 and it is.
BUT really, the image is too pixellated and I am too biased for the judgement of this little graphical experiment to stand in court. Like the sidereal pendulum or the diviner's wands, I'm afraid my mind has influenced the result.

What I really need is a clear photograph, one from the Kop would be useful?.....'til then I have other, more pressing cases to solve, first though, a cup of tea....

MRS. HUDSON, Mrs Hudson........

 

[vorpal blade]

The slope on the lower Graves pitches is brutal.

and leads to Hell.



Errant shooters are rightly scared to venture beyond that goal-line.

 

[Kenilworth]

with regret, have proved almost entirely unproductive......

View attachment 11300
If lines are parallel, then they should appear to meet at the same vanishing point, the schoolboy's example being railway tracks on a flat landscape appear to meet at the horizon. So you ought to be able to show which lines are parallel to which by tracing them from photographs. Notwithstanding that this linear perspective is merely an approximation of the true illusion which is that our eyes perceive straight lines as curved, as do cameras (look how the front of the Kop roof appears curved in the above photograph).

Now, the green dashed lines pick up on elements of the structure of the Bramall Lane stand, roof, front wall of the 'balcony' which ought to be parallel and they have their own vanishing point (VP1). The goal line and the crossbar seem to have their own (VP2) which, if the land slopes, should be lower than VP1 and it is.
BUT really, the image is too pixellated and I am too biased for the judgement of this little graphical experiment to stand in court. Like the sidereal pendulum or the diviner's sticks, I'm afraid my mind has influenced the result.

What I really need is a clear photograph, one from the Kop would be useful?.....'til then I have other, more pressing cases to solve, first though, a cup of tea....

MRS. HUDSON, Mrs Hudson........

May I make a suggestion?



.... I think you are better off studying your other photographs

 

[vorpal blade]

No, I'm best served pretending to do some work Ken!

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I sat near pitch level on the Kop t'other day. I was amazed to see the slope down from South to North (Cherry Street to John Street) of the pitch. The first time I'd been that low at that end.

I knew it sloped but it was the first time I realised that the goal at the Bramall Lane end hasn't got a horizontal cross-bar. I don't think that goal is a rectangle;
IF, my eye-sight is true (I wear reading glasses and am 52) and IF the terraces of seats are level at that end (against which I was lining the goal up), then the crossbar, like the pitch - slopes. (I hope to be proved wrong btw)

That goal appears to be a parallelogram rather than a rectangle to this observer (I don't even know if that is within the rules??)
laock of
SO, if we are sowing a new pitch, might I suggest that the pitch is levelled so that it is dug lower against the South Stand please?

I have previously mentioned that the pitch is close to the water-table as it is BUT if Bramall Lane really is to host important internationals etc. in future I'd have thought rectangular goals are a pre-requisite.

TELL ME I'M WRONG.

Bramall Lane has been built in a strange way.

The original stand (put up mid 60's) was built level and the problem didn't really show up until the BLLT tier was seated. Sat in G/H block of South stand you can clearly see how the lower tier follows the slope from South stand down to John Street with more seats the closer you get to John Street.

The Kop was built to follow the contours of the slope so every seat is actually on a slight slope. Again this can be seen if you look at the back of the kop where the difference can be clearly seen.

I believe when the original undersoil heating was done, it was discussed at the time as to whether the pitch would in fact be leveled, but from a construction point of view it is not an easy job considering the above.

When the South stand was built, considerable footings were built (and buried), so that a few more rows could actually be added at the front of the stand IF the task was ever undertaken to level the playing surface. Leveling the surface would result in 2 or 3 more rows if the club wanted to do it. If it did ever happen, the BLLT could have extra seats to level it up, but the kop would then look to clearly follow the slope. Perhaps when the kop is rebuilt then perhaps it would be looked at again.

If you have a stadium tour, John Garret will confirm the pitch does actually slope - believe it is 3-4 feet in total.

Just for the record, the Pigs ground also has a slope from leppings lane to their kop, but their stands do not follow the slope.
Newcastles also slopes down to the Gallogate end - but considering how much money was spent on the ground redevelopment, it has been done properly and is quite subtle.

If there are any sad geeks like me who takes an interest in stadia design and construction there is a very interesting book by Simon Inglis that covers the design from the start and goes into great detail how individual clubs/grounds have changed over the years.

If it was me, then now is the time to level the pitch, but there would be extra cost in all the surrounding bits right up to each stand.

Hope this helps.

UTB

 

[grafikhaus]

I remember reading in Flashing Blade some years ago that on the pitch, the Kop is 5 feet higher than BL. Can anyone at the club confirm this?

Five feet! Fuck me! That's bigger than most of our team!

 

[Borbokisfreekick]

Bramall Lane has been built in a strange way.

The original stand (put up mid 60's) was built level and the problem didn't really show up until the BLLT tier was seated. Sat in G/H block of South stand you can clearly see how the lower tier follows the slope from South stand down to John Street with more seats the closer you get to John Street.

The Kop was built to follow the contours of the slope so every seat is actually on a slight slope. Again this can be seen if you look at the back of the kop where the difference can be clearly seen.

I believe when the original undersoil heating was done, it was discussed at the time as to whether the pitch would in fact be leveled, but from a construction point of view it is not an easy job considering the above.

When the South stand was built, considerable footings were built (and buried), so that a few more rows could actually be added at the front of the stand IF the task was ever undertaken to level the playing surface. Leveling the surface would result in 2 or 3 more rows if the club wanted to do it. If it did ever happen, the BLLT could have extra seats to level it up, but the kop would then look to clearly follow the slope. Perhaps when the kop is rebuilt then perhaps it would be looked at again.

If you have a stadium tour, John Garret will confirm the pitch does actually slope - believe it is 3-4 feet in total.

Just for the record, the Pigs ground also has a slope from leppings lane to their kop, but their stands do not follow the slope.
Newcastles also slopes down to the Gallogate end - but considering how much money was spent on the ground redevelopment, it has been done properly and is quite subtle.

If there are any sad geeks like me who takes an interest in stadia design and construction there is a very interesting book by Simon Inglis that covers the design from the start and goes into great detail how individual clubs/grounds have changed over the years.

If it was me, then now is the time to level the pitch, but there would be extra cost in all the surrounding bits right up to each stand.

Hope this helps.

UTB

Great post.

In terms of stadium improvements then if/when the club next decide to do some then they HAVE to actually spend some money and do it right. Aside from the john street, every improvement - the kop, bramall lane lower tier, kop corner, bramall lane corner have all been done on the cheap and look crap.

They must be due some cus the bramall lane end upper tier must be close to its sell by date - 50 years now, and the kop is easily past its sell by date due to the cheapness it was built on!....

With the land we have at our disposal, imagine if someone with foresight had actually designed a new ground in the 90's, we would have had an amazing ground!

 

[grafikhaus]

With the land we have at our disposal, imagine if someone with foresight had actually designed a new ground in the 90's, we would have had an amazing ground!

Reg Brealey did in the 80s but the Council weren't having that.

 

[vorpal blade]

what like me in 1996 do you mean?