CONFIRMED Louie Marsh signs another new contract and loaned to Fleetwood Town

[jt64]

There seems to be two trains of thought here:

1) Those that recognise that age level football is a better standard than perceived, with playing styles more approximating what the player will actually experience in the first team, also that the parent club is going to have better coaching, and the game in 2023 is such that there is not a massive need to have someone have the shit kicked out of them at a lower level
2) Those that liken footballers to electricians, builders etc who think that young players are on an apprenticeship, and that unless they've served multiple years with subbies doing "on the job training" they're never going to be actually any good at the end job - regardless of whether where they are doing said training is actually teaching them any better than what can be done in house, if even the same thing

It's pretty fucking obvious which camp I'm in. Loans basically serve two purposes - one where a player is very close to the first team picture, but not quite there and you need to see them play in something approximating the first team (cf. Jebbison/Osula outgoing, Doyle/McAtee incoming), and then loans where the player is clearly not going to get close to the first team ever, so you're putting them in the shop window at a level more closely aligned to their actual ability, either for the eventual loaning club to buy, or at least to advertise to the same level (and dump wages in the process). Loans for the sake of loans aren't useful. If I want someone to eventually play for Sheffield United then I want them to be learning in SUFC's own setup with their own better coaches, not at Port Vale because "mens football... minutes"

 

[bonobo]

The 'men's football' thing is a bit annoying. But with the tactical and physical requirements, players really aren't claiming first team roles as teenagers as much as they would. People bang on about Jebbison not developing, but he an England U20 striker and you look at who else there is in his age bracket. So at a point in time, they need to be playing football and may well not enter the first team until they are 22-23. But I can't help think somethings are lost, just the benefit of working/training week in, week out with the team they are hoping to actually play for, what strikes me is how all these loans are continuous back-to-back.Also it disrupts that continuity with a successful youth team that have been playing together regularly and are able to enter the first team squad with a real cohesion and established partnerships. Would like to see Marsh get a start at Lincoln still.

 

[Ludgblade64]

Again you’re wrong. Footballers (who we’re talking about) have changed beyond recognition over the last 40/50 years. They’re athletes now, they’re physical specimens and look after themselves better than they ever have done…this means competition based on physicality is as high as it ever has been. If some players lack that athleticism and physicality then it could be a good idea to send out on loan..think Mcatee and even Doyle in this context.

Also, football as a business has changed beyond recognition. Managers tenures are much shorter these days, there’s more pressure on them to get results and get results quick. They cannot afford to blood new youth players as quickly as we’d all like because if it goes wrong, they get sacked. This is why loans are key, it allows the manager to play their strongest 11 but the loans allow youth players the chance to get match day experience and all the other benefits I’ve mentioned in a previous reply to you.

Yes, I'm an Athlete, I ran for Worksop Harriers, marathons, on the track, 10k half marathons and played many sports all my life and I have a resting heartbeat of 48bpm, and I'm 70 years of age, a lot of football scouts are watching athletics, I know because we had a few go to football clubs, but they are rubbish at football, they are fast, but are headless chickens, take Ollie Burke, football is about skill, guile, speed of thought, coordination and much more, you are saying that old players weren't athletes,

Football has always been a business, that why people like Kevin McCabe got involved and sold are best players, where it's changed is due to TV money, that the general public pay a subscription fee, and rich Arabs, which will implode, the transfer fees are unstainable

You say managers get the sack, if it goes wrong, but Hecky has got a long contract and we have a fantastic record with our young players, so it's not much of a gamble with our young players

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Yes, I'm an Athlete, I ran for Worksop Harriers, marathons, on the track, 10k half marathons and played many sports all my life and I have a resting heartbeat of 48bpm, and I'm 70 years of age, a lot of football scouts are watching athletics, I know because we had a few go to football clubs, but they are rubbish at football, they are fast, but are headless chickens, take Ollie Burke, football is about skill, guile, speed of thought, coordination and much more, you are saying that old players weren't athletes,

Football has always been a business, that why people like Kevin McCabe got involved and sold are best players, where it's changed is due to TV money, that the general public pay a subscription fee, and rich Arabs, which will implode, the transfer fees are unstainable

You say managers get the sack, if it goes wrong, but Hecky has got a long contract and we have a fantastic record with our young players, so it's not much of a gamble with our young players

How much do you bench press Ludg?

 

[Pedro's Winger]

League One football now isn't the third level football of old. Football's changed and the notion of a league full of cloggers is outdated.
At the end of the day, League One is a higher level of football than youth football and if a kid is going to make it a loan is an obvious part of their development.

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

Look
I am a regular attender at Academy games. I freely admit I know very little about the so called technical side of analysis and potential. I freely admit the modern idea in football of constantly looking to "how we'll be in the future" - signings, contracts, player progression holds no interest for me. But, you will not find a more positive supporter of our Academy players in the moment than me. Once Louie has gone, King Kurt will naturally get my full and vociferous support. And, so will the fucker after him. And, hopefully, one day, I'll be shouting the roof off and blogging about some youngster in our Academy who has not even been born yet.

And, that's the sort of selfish fuck I aspire to be.

I admire your commitment to watching the Academy, I dread to think of your financial outlay over the years and I wouldn't dream of knocking you or question your support of the kids wearing the red and white stripes.
Unless there is a change to the structure of u18/u21/u23 football I just don't see an alternative way to give the likes of Marsh the experience to fully develop his skills. Playing u21 football for another season or two doesn't really give him the best opportunity to make it into the first team.
Perhaps I'm in a different camp to you, I want to see our kids develop even if that means them moving on to other clubs, I'd prefer them to stay but sometimes that's not possible.
Our success in developing young players over the years is most probably better than any other team in the area, which must make it easier to attract younger players into the academy.
You must have a certain amount of satisfaction in having watched players like Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire and Iliman come through the ranks, long may it continue.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I admire your commitment to watching the Academy, I dread to think of your financial outlay over the years and I wouldn't dream of knocking you or question your support of the kids wearing the red and white stripes.
Unless there is a change to the structure of u18/u21/u23 football I just don't see an alternative way to give the likes of Marsh the experience to fully develop his skills. Playing u21 football for another season or two doesn't really give him the best opportunity to make it into the first team.
Perhaps I'm in a different camp to you, I want to see our kids develop even if that means them moving on to other clubs, I'd prefer them to stay but sometimes that's not possible.
Our success in developing young players over the years is most probably better than any other team in the area, which must make it easier to attract younger players into the academy.
You must have a certain amount of satisfaction in having watched players like Kyle Walker, Harry Maguire and Iliman come through the ranks, long may it continue.

Most clubs who have recently upgraded to Cat 1 Academies cite the standard and quality of the games their lads will face at the next level. And the role that improved game standard has in player development. So, there is another route other than "reserves" and "loans to ManBall". But, we know that's a very difficult route for United to take. So, we're left with ManBall. I get that.

I know mine is a minority view. I've said that already. The main satisfaction I get is coming out of the ground with a smile on my face, and an absolute buzz over what I've just seen. I can't worry about where that might lead in the future.

My fave Academy players in living memory are Jake Wright Jnr. I went to any lengths to see him play. Diego. Marcus Dewhurst. Regan. Dominic. Reece York. Harry Boyes. Harvey Gilmour. Stephen Mallon. Ky Gordon. As you see, not all of them "went on to better things".

 

[finlaytheblade]

League One football now isn't the third level football of old. Football's changed and the notion of a league full of cloggers is outdated.
At the end of the day, League One is a higher level of football than youth football and if a kid is going to make it a loan is an obvious part of their development.

It would be great if all good prospects jumped from development team to 1st team.
Just not feasible these days,the gap between reserves as we are calling them and 1st team is bigger now than in the past.Yes a manager is thinking of his own position by not throwing kids in at the deep end can you blame him ! It's a results based business and inexperienced players will let you down if not vetted properly .
Occasionally a natural talent comes through who thrives on being pushed,most just need a push and a bit of understanding giving them time to mature both physically and mentally.

 

[BiggerBladeThanThou]

Yes, I'm an Athlete, I ran for Worksop Harriers, marathons, on the track, 10k half marathons and played many sports all my life and I have a resting heartbeat of 48bpm, and I'm 70 years of age, a lot of football scouts are watching athletics, I know because we had a few go to football clubs, but they are rubbish at football, they are fast, but are headless chickens, take Ollie Burke, football is about skill, guile, speed of thought, coordination and much more, you are saying that old players weren't athletes,

Football has always been a business, that why people like Kevin McCabe got involved and sold are best players, where it's changed is due to TV money, that the general public pay a subscription fee, and rich Arabs, which will implode, the transfer fees are unstainable

You say managers get the sack, if it goes wrong, but Hecky has got a long contract and we have a fantastic record with our young players, so it's not much of a gamble with our young players

I’m sorry, I can’t debate with you. Athletes doesn’t just been track & field.

Congrats on being healthy at your age.

 

[LBA_Blade]

For the first time ever I am in the know. Drink with a friend if the family and as of last Saturday two teams (think was stevenage and Cheltenham want him on loan) Ipswich want to sign him on a permanent

Wouldn't want to sell him and at this stage based on the relatively unknown I can't see Ipswich being able to afford him. Out of the 2 Stevenage probably the better move as tend to be in and around play offs in on a loan.

 

[Yogi]

There seems to be two trains of thought here:

1) Those that recognise that age level football is a better standard than perceived, with playing styles more approximating what the player will actually experience in the first team, also that the parent club is going to have better coaching, and the game in 2023 is such that there is not a massive need to have someone have the shit kicked out of them at a lower level
2) Those that liken footballers to electricians, builders etc who think that young players are on an apprenticeship, and that unless they've served multiple years with subbies doing "on the job training" they're never going to be actually any good at the end job - regardless of whether where they are doing said training is actually teaching them any better than what can be done in house, if even the same thing

It's pretty fucking obvious which camp I'm in. Loans basically serve two purposes - one where a player is very close to the first team picture, but not quite there and you need to see them play in something approximating the first team (cf. Jebbison/Osula outgoing, Doyle/McAtee incoming), and then loans where the player is clearly not going to get close to the first team ever, so you're putting them in the shop window at a level more closely aligned to their actual ability, either for the eventual loaning club to buy, or at least to advertise to the same level (and dump wages in the process). Loans for the sake of loans aren't useful. If I want someone to eventually play for Sheffield United then I want them to be learning in SUFC's own setup with their own better coaches, not at Port Vale because "mens football... minutes"

There’s also loans where you want to expose a player to an adverse environment and see how they handle that mentally. I believe that’s the rationale behind us sending them really low down the pyramid even if it’s only for a month or two. I think Lester spoke about it once during an interview.

 

[Ludgblade64]

How much do you bench press Ludg?

How much do I bench press, my gym routine consists of 40mins Running up hill on the treadmill, 45mins/60min spin class, 30mins weights with 4 sets of 40kg of 12 reps, with lateral pull downs, at 80kgs, shoulder press at 40kgs, 4 sets of 27.5 kg 20 reps crunches, and 4 sets of quad press at 20kg 10 reps, I then finish of with a 10min swim to reduce lactic acid build up, I train 4 times a week, I also veiry my running program. I used to train the local footballers, and athletics., the footballers didn't like running!!

Does that answer your question

 

[EddieColquhoun]

How much do I bench press, my gym routine consists of 40mins Running up hill on the treadmill, 45mins/60min spin class, 30mins weights with 4 sets of 40kg of 12 reps, with lateral pull downs, at 80kgs, shoulder press at 40kgs, 4 sets of 27.5 kg 20 reps crunches, and 4 sets of quad press at 20kg 10 reps, I then finish of with a 10min swim to reduce lactic acid build up, I train 4 times a week, I also veiry my running program. I used to train the local footballers, and athletics., the footballers didn't like running!!

Does that answer your question

Well done, pal.
Please don’t take me seriously

 

[Dougie]

Does that answer your question

He asked how much you bench press so no, not really

 

[VictoryBlade]

So Brighton have an 18 year old who scores in the Premiership but we treat out player with kid gloves. Brian Clough (when referring to Trevor Francis, who had his debut in the top flight at 16 years old) if your good enough, your old enough! Total truth!!!

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

For every list of previous academy players who went on loan there are those who didn’t:

Maguire
Whitehouse
Wayne Quinn
Woodhouse
Morris
Jagielka
Monthomery
Tonge

As always (boring thought I know it is and I feel like I just repeat same old boring shit when I say it) it’s not a one size fits all approach. There are some on here saying throw them into first team straight away (always) and those who say we may send them on loan (always). Both are wrong. Depends on each player and the countless variables around contract, physical development, talent, position etc etc.

As for Marsh, he seems to need more physical development so I get why first team football would be a big ask at this stage. However, not sure I agree that getting the shit kicked out of him by lower league cloggers is going to make him grow faster so undecided if he should be loans. As always, those running the academy and first team are I’ll have all the relevant information and be in a far better position to figure out his path to the first team.

 

[Frank the tank]

He looks a real talent but he is very lightweight at the moment

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

He looks a real talent but he is very lightweight at the moment

Very true and the more I think about it the more I am convinced that we often are counterintuitive in how we think this should be approached. We think (as I mentioned) that featuring regularly against big lower league centre halves will improve physicality but I don’t think this is true. Surely for someone like Marsh who needs to grow and ‘bulk up’ remaining in-house with our dieticians and fitness team is better than being in league two with inferior support in growing. Actually the lower league toughening would be better used for earlier developers likes Jebbison or Osula who can learn how to use their size advantages there. What would Marsh learn in League Two beyond he’s good at footballer but needs to fill out?

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

BTW not saying Osula / Jebbison should go to L2 more making a point about physicality.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

What would Marsh learn in League Two beyond he’s good at footballer but needs to fill out?

I saw a couple of streamed games last year and was a little disappointed. Do you think he’s a finished article and just needs to pump some iron?

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Looks the same built as D Brooks.

 

[dellasthunderbolt]

I saw a couple of streamed games last year and was a little disappointed. Do you think he’s a finished article and just needs to pump some iron?

I take your point. That for technical football reasons maybe a lower league loan good but I think this element is somewhat overstated. Yes, you could argue that the one match a week might provide a little more opportunity for development but then the week of coaching is being done elsewhere with inferior coaches that could be teaching bad habits. My main argument is that putting a (comparatively) physically weaker young player into a more physical league doesn’t realy do much to develop said physicality.

 

[Charlieblade]

I agree. Ultimately, every player is different and basing any decision (loan or no loan), based purely on whichever historical stats you pull up, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best choice for that individual.

I agree with this. All players develop at the pace best suited for them. N’diaye is someone who developed largely due to his own supreme confidence in his ability. His physical growth was evident in early games always due to cramp. He had the skills, but lacked robust physicality and endurance. He dug his heels in and got an initial contract.
Marsh is impressive but probably lacks confidence in the system. Marsh and Arblaster are both gifted players. They are both natural ballers who have grown up in the English system. (Keep your mouth shut and do as you are told)
Their time will come, but as supporters, we have to trust our system to develop individuals in line with their own personal development.
Given his history, PH is best placed to do this effectively.

 

[Charlieblade]

I want to clarify. I am in no way suggesting we "throw" players straight into the first team. Particularly if they are not ready. What I am suggesting is that we should work longer and harder on their development in house, with the coaches we have, and the facilities we have. We should not think that Woking (or similar) will be able to develop them better because they play (checks notes) men's football. It's knee jerk, it's shallow and it's shit.

"Player X has scored Y goals in our Academy - oooohhhh he needs a loan to Woking"

As I said earlier, development loans have just become "a thing".

Phil, I respect your view but you come across as a bit anti our system with a jaundiced view of young player development. With your considerable experience at this level, you have very right to be so annoyed with current club development.
All I know is every youth player should be treated differently, simply because they are all different. I hope the club recognizes this and does not have a one size fits all policy.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Wouldn't want to sell him and at this stage based on the relatively unknown I can't see Ipswich being able to afford him. Out of the 2 Stevenage probably the better move as tend to be in and around play offs in on a loan.

Sell him ! You must be joking ! He's a blade and that's great he won't be in a hurry to leave.We have just lost the most talented player since TC ! Marshy is in that group ! Gifted ! He can become a special player just like the two I mentioned,premiership clubs will be knocking on the door if they arnt already.
Good job we got promotion as it would be difficult to fend them off as a championship club.
Not only does he have all the skills temperament is key to him reaching the top he also seems to have that as well.might be over the top but watching him play ! I think he could be a potential world class player.
The club will know the kid has to be used wisely ! Hecki knows how to do this!
I will finish by saying!
WHAT A PLAYER WE HAVE
HERE !!!

HERE..

 

[finlaytheblade]

How much do I bench press, my gym routine consists of 40mins Running up hill on the treadmill, 45mins/60min spin class, 30mins weights with 4 sets of 40kg of 12 reps, with lateral pull downs, at 80kgs, shoulder press at 40kgs, 4 sets of 27.5 kg 20 reps crunches, and 4 sets of quad press at 20kg 10 reps, I then finish of with a 10min swim to reduce lactic acid build up, I train 4 times a week, I also veiry my running program. I used to train the local footballers, and athletics., the footballers didn't like running!!

Does that answer your question

Phew! I have done marathons and other distances best time 2-56 for the marathon.
Your schedule blows me out of the water! I'm going back to bed ..

 

[Ludgblade64]

Well done, pal.
Please don’t take me seriously

I didn't I'm trying to make a point about athletes from the past, with today's players that they call athletes

 

[Bladeloyal]

Very true and the more I think about it the more I am convinced that we often are counterintuitive in how we think this should be approached. We think (as I mentioned) that featuring regularly against big lower league centre halves will improve physicality but I don’t think this is true. Surely for someone like Marsh who needs to grow and ‘bulk up’ remaining in-house with our dieticians and fitness team is better than being in league two with inferior support in growing. Actually the lower league toughening would be better used for earlier developers likes Jebbison or Osula who can learn how to use their size advantages there. What would Marsh learn in League Two beyond he’s good at footballer but needs to fill out?

There seems to be within football a mindset that young players need to bulk up ,tell that to your Denis laws your Billy deardens ,your George bests ,your John Tudors and many other slight players .

 

[finlaytheblade]

There seems to be within football a mindset that young players need to bulk up ,tell that to your Denis laws your Billy deardens ,your George bests ,your John Tudors and many other slight players .

Tudor wernt a slim player he was an ideal build for a centre forward.
The rest were slim but physically strong.

 

[Digs blade]

How much do I bench press, my gym routine consists of 40mins Running up hill on the treadmill, 45mins/60min spin class, 30mins weights with 4 sets of 40kg of 12 reps, with lateral pull downs, at 80kgs, shoulder press at 40kgs, 4 sets of 27.5 kg 20 reps crunches, and 4 sets of quad press at 20kg 10 reps, I then finish of with a 10min swim to reduce lactic acid build up, I train 4 times a week, I also veiry my running program. I used to train the local footballers, and athletics., the footballers didn't like running!!

Does that answer your question

Credit to you, I’m strictly a once a week gym person and sometimes struggle to even do that. Having said that there is a great machine down at my gym, does absolutely everything.........................

Mars Bars, Bounty’s, Twix, Snickers