Longevity in the top flight

[SRA76]

35 clubs have had more seasons in the Premier League than us.

Including the likes of Wigan, Wednesday, Wimbledon, Charlton, Coventry, Swansea, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Birmingham.

How shit has football been in yorkshire never mind Sheffield when they’ve been in prem longer than us and are arguably most successful club in region. They’ve not been in top flight football for 20 odd years and still played in it more than us. Shows how wank we have been and Yorkshire in general. Then you look across Pennines

 

[Proper Blade]

It's disappointing that despite spending 3 out of 5 seasons in the PL, nothing has changed within the infrastructure of the club apart from the odd lick of paint or cladding.

I could just about accept the pathetic approach by us in the summer if the PL money we were receiving this season went on something like a new stand, training ground or ploughing money into a proper scouting system and benefit us from years to come, but it seems that behind the scenes we're still run like a League 1 club.

Until we sort this out then we can forget any longevity in the top flight, without a wealthy backer a club like us needs to be funded by making huge profits on players like what Brighton and Brentford have done.

Looks like we spent all the infrastructure budget on the scaffolding that has gone up outside the Copthorne

 

[scouseblade]

They are in the Europa Conference league this season aren’t they?

More games in EL next season - 8 instead of 6 before more knockout games.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Sure Dave Bassett mentioned in his biography we had a small time mentality he was bang on.

 

[Oohaah! Bob Bookah!]

Are we now officially classed as a "YoYo" club?
or do we have to be relegated and promoted again for that?

 

[Geordie Blade]

35 clubs have had more seasons in the Premier League than us.

Including the likes of Wigan, Wednesday, Wimbledon, Charlton, Coventry, Swansea, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Birmingham.

And excluding Bournemouth
Where are they now ??

And how many of them went into administration, or fell foul of FFP

Exactly.

That's the point.

A club that hasn't existed for 20 years has still had more seasons in the Premier League than us.

That's not the only point, though. Another point is that those clubs 'showed ambition' by staying up there for a big longer, but built up horrendous liabilities for high wages, agents' fees etc. and got buggered in the long term.

In the last 28 seasons, we've finished in the top half of our league 23 times. We've finished in the top three in 7 of those 28 seasons, the top six in 12/28 seasons, the top eight in 18/28 and the top ten in 22/28. That's not actually a bad lot as a football fan. We've celebrated more wins that any club outside the 'Big Six'. Crap though this season is, we don't have it that bad.

 

[ShorehamRevolution]

That's not the only point, though. Another point is that those clubs 'showed ambition' by staying up there for a big longer, but built up horrendous liabilities for high wages, agents' fees etc. and got buggered in the long term.

In the last 28 seasons, we've finished in the top half of our league 23 times. We've finished in the top three in 7 of those 28 seasons, the top six in 12/28 seasons, the top eight in 18/28 and the top ten in 22/28. That's not actually a bad lot as a football fan. We've celebrated more wins that any club outside the 'Big Six'. Crap though this season is, we don't have it that bad.

These facts scare me, the footballing gods hate us in one off big games at Wembley etc, you only have to look across the city to see how them lot have faired in the long run, I’d hazard a guess that in the last 28 seasons the pigs have finished in the bottom half maybe 14 times in them years.

 

[Bell4]

Maybe the secret to staying in the top flight is not selling your best players immediately after getting promoted?

Small club mentality. We're just happy to be here for the ride, making up numbers. Zero ambition.

Selling our best players when we went up was unfortunate, but made good business sense as neither would sign a contract and could have left for nothing the end of the season. The argument is, would we have stayed up if they had stayed ? Who knows , but the owner doesn't have the motivation, interest or wealth to take the chance, therefore they had to go. The mindset , experience and savviness of the owner shapes the club , its behaviour and the subsequent outcomes we get.

The other point is that our recruitment infrastructure is inadequate , especially at Premier league level - hence the poor quality of players brought in - eventually - and the ludicrous staring line up we had for the opening few games - we managed to improve things worse.

 

[JJBlade]

Selling our best players when we went up was unfortunate, but made good business sense as neither would sign a contract and could have left for nothing the end of the season. The argument is, would we have stayed up if they had stayed ? Who knows , but the owner doesn't have the motivation, interest or wealth to take the chance, therefore they had to go. The mindset , experience and savviness of the owner shapes the club , its behaviour and the subsequent outcomes we get.

The other point is that our recruitment infrastructure is inadequate , especially at Premier league level - hence the poor quality of players brought in - eventually - and the ludicrous staring line up we had for the opening few games - we managed to improve things worse.

Or, give good players a Premier League contract and stop them from leaving to go to fucking Burnley

 

[bornablade]

35 clubs have had more seasons in the Premier League than us.

Including the likes of Wigan, Wednesday, Wimbledon, Charlton, Coventry, Swansea, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Birmingham.

Throw West Brom into the mix.

 

[Rodley]

That's not the only point, though. Another point is that those clubs 'showed ambition' by staying up there for a big longer, but built up horrendous liabilities for high wages, agents' fees etc. and got buggered in the long term.

But realistically for a club outside of the top 8, in an inherently unsustainable environment for clubs, isn’t our ceiling actually that:-

(1) go up;
(2) push the financial envelope and probably significantly overstretch to sustain a period of relative success;
(3) go back down again and deal with the financial fallout.

If you asked Bolton fans whether they’d have preferred (a) parsimony and floating along being irrelevant for 25 years, or (b) watching their team on two UEFA Cup runs, seeing Djorkaeff and Okocha, competing with the big boys then falling through the leagues - I guarantee they would go (b) every time. Ditto Wigan and Pompey fans with their stints in the Premier League and winning FA Cups etc.

Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

 

[Geordie Blade]

But realistically for a club outside of the top 8, in an inherently unsustainable environment for clubs, isn’t our ceiling actually that:-

(1) go up;
(2) push the financial envelope and probably significantly overstretch to sustain a period of relative success;
(3) go back down again and deal with the financial fallout.

If you asked Bolton fans whether they’d have preferred (a) parsimony and floating along being irrelevant for 25 years, or (b) watching their team on two UEFA Cup runs, seeing Djorkaeff and Okocha, competing with the big boys then falling through the leagues - I guarantee they would go (b) every time. Ditto Wigan and Pompey fans with their stints in the Premier League and winning FA Cups etc.

Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

Having had a quick look at Portsmouth and Bolton fans' forums, I think you're right. Apart from the rare voice on there, they all seem adamant that it was worth the ride.

 

[Lord Eddard Muir]

35 clubs have had more seasons in the Premier League than us.

Including the likes of Wigan, Wednesday, Wimbledon, Charlton, Coventry, Swansea, Bournemouth, Portsmouth and Birmingham.

Don't think Coventry belong in that "the likes of" list personally, although maybe that's just me showing my age. Before they got relegated they'd been in the top flight 36 consecutive seasons, Premier League founder member and ever-present until 2001. Was a shock of Villa proportions when they went down.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Don't think Coventry belong in that "the likes of" list personally, although maybe that's just me showing my age. Before they got relegated they'd been in the top flight 36 consecutive seasons, Premier League founder member and ever-present until 2001. Was a shock of Villa proportions when they went down.

It's probably an age thing.

I very much lump them in the category of being a 90s Premier League team.

Worth mentioning that they did win the FA Cup in 1987 though.

 

[Tezza1889]

It's probably an age thing.

I very much lump them in the category of being a 90s Premier League team.

Worth mentioning that they did win the FA Cup in 1987 though.

Coventry had a sustained top flight membership for many years, think it didn't hurt them to be associated with match of the day's Jimmy Hill, refs looked after them if my alcohol addled brain serves me well.. was it them and Arsenal as the two longest serving top flight teams at some point.


They have won something in my life time unlike us, so well done to them..

Some funny memories of aways at Highfield Road, rigged meat raffles and chase the ace in the Irish club...

That ricoh place, soulless and miles out ..

Plus we lost last time I went..come to think of it, fuck em..

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Even in our current plight, this recent period in our history has to go down as a successful one. But, sadly our recent dalliances with the top flight have also seemingly made us famous for being utter wank…and shit like that sticks. All those infuriating media stereotypes about us have sadly been proved right…I mean, we made cunts like Merson and Sutton look like bloody Socrates and Plato, and that really hurts. Also, when many fans in the Prem don’t even consider us a club worthy of top flight status, yet clubs with a fraction of our fanbase like Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, etc look so fucking comfortable in this league, even Burnley and Luton have received plaudits for giving it a go.
All through a lifetime of supporting United we seem to have been spoon fed a narrative that we haven’t got a pot to piss in, and to temper all our expectations for the club. ….Well, I dunno where I’m going with this rant Blades, but seeing my beloved club humiliated with it’s trousers round it’s ankles…makes this proud man very unhappy.

 

[Iffy Onuora's Shiny Head]

I think this is why Wilders first 3.5 years I'm charge was some of the best times in 30+ years. You felt proud to say who you supported, I enjoyed pundits talking about us and I enjoyed the thicker pundits writing us off and getting egg on their face.
We looked to be embracing a new culture of signing young hungry players on the up - we just have failed at continuing that the past 4 or so years when the fees got bigger.

 

[Isar]

As the recent cartoon said, we found the only Saudi Prince who keeps a padlock on the thermostat.
That is a very Sheffield thing to happen to us.

 

[ShorehamRevolution]

Even in our current plight, this recent period in our history has to go down as a successful one. But, sadly our recent dalliances with the top flight have also seemingly made us famous for being utter wank…and shit like that sticks. All those infuriating media stereotypes about us have sadly been proved right…I mean, we made cunts like Merson and Sutton look like bloody Socrates and Plato, and that really hurts. Also, when many fans in the Prem don’t even consider us a club worthy of top flight status, yet clubs with a fraction of our fanbase like Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham, etc look so fucking comfortable in this league, even Burnley and Luton have received plaudits for giving it a go.
All through a lifetime of supporting United we seem to have been spoon fed a narrative that we haven’t got a pot to piss in, and to temper all our expectations for the club. ….Well, I dunno where I’m going with this rant Blades, but seeing my beloved club humiliated with it’s trousers round it’s ankles…makes this proud man very unhappy.

Quote of s24su. Shut the forum down, we have a winner !

 

[Badger Blade]

We as a club embody imposter syndrome. Pundits deciding the narrative that we aren't good enough and the club swallows it as if the know-nowts on Sky/BBC/Talksport etc have decided the outcome of the season before a ball is kicked and we've just blithely gone along with it.

The club acts like an embarrassed, spotty schoolgirl who gets invited up on stage at a One Direction concert to get a peck on the cheek from Harry Styles when it's actually earned a spot on the main stage through being good enough to actually be there, which based on last season, we were and by a comfortable margin in the end.

The clubs who have had a good go at the top flight took the bull by the horns and went for it. We did the last time round until it all went tits up after we ran out of tactical ideas and "spunked" what little money we had on Rhian Brewster.

We know that we've got the Saudi Arabian equivalent of Princess Michael of Kent's third cousin twice removed in charge but it doesn't seem to stop clubs like Luton signing players like Ross Barkley and Andros Townsend. Proven, experienced Premier League players who on their own give Luton half a chance of staying up. The sort of reclamation project we could only have dreamed of when Jack Rodwell and Ravel Morrison darkened our doors.

In terms of longevity, look no further than Palace. They've done 11 straight seasons, just bobbing along. It might not be very interesting being a Palace fan but they're still here because they're shrewd in the transfer market. They don't have an especially nice ground, big support base or come from a particularly nice part of London.

Iliman Ndiaye could have been our Wilfried Zaha for the next 5 years. Zaha has gone but they've kept on making smart signings. Olise (Reading), Mateta (Mainz), Edouard (Celtic), Eze (QPR), Guehi (Chelsea reserves). These aren't players signed from particularly glamourous clubs (Guehi apart) but they keep on plucking them out and are doing a job without breaking the bank (relatively speaking). Something we haven't seemed able to do since Wilder took us through the leagues.

 

[JJBlade]

But realistically for a club outside of the top 8, in an inherently unsustainable environment for clubs, isn’t our ceiling actually that:-

(1) go up;
(2) push the financial envelope and probably significantly overstretch to sustain a period of relative success;
(3) go back down again and deal with the financial fallout.

If you asked Bolton fans whether they’d have preferred (a) parsimony and floating along being irrelevant for 25 years, or (b) watching their team on two UEFA Cup runs, seeing Djorkaeff and Okocha, competing with the big boys then falling through the leagues - I guarantee they would go (b) every time. Ditto Wigan and Pompey fans with their stints in the Premier League and winning FA Cups etc.

Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

The reason that there are any Bolton fans left in existence is because of their fairly recent "Glory Days"

Without the very good Premier League tenure costing them a fortune, without the European football and excellent cup runs they wouldn't have a club now because almost everyone that supports them nowadays is a remnant from those days.

Many of us had trips to Bolton in the 1980's when we had more in the stadium than home fans, if that had continued they'd have nothing left of their club now.

We haven't had anything remotely like the "success" Bolton had as a Premier League club, United have even managed to create apathy and ambivalence amongst it's fans whilst being a Premier League club, so a backlash and major boycott would be very easy to predict if the next four or five years don't go well.

 

[ShorehamRevolution]

Domestic cup finalists of the past 30 years, excluding the top 6 some of these have won or appeared more than once think Leicester and Middlesbrough. I know it’s changed now but a lot of these clubs qualified for Europe by winning or competing in a final. That’s another source of income and something I’d love to see, our fans singing never felt more like swinging a pig in some far flung Slovakian village square.

all the top 6 (obviously)
Watford
Crystal Palace
Hull
Stoke
Portsmouth
Everton
West ham
Milwall
Newcastle
Villa
Southampton
Sunderland
Swansea
Bradford
Cardiff
Birmingham
Wigan
Middlesbrough
Bolton
Blackburn
Leicester
Tranmere
Leeds

 

[Bladezz]

I was wondering to myself how many seasons Wigan spent in the top flight and was quite surprised it was 8 seasons.
We spent 40 consecutive seasons in the top flight from 1894-1934 and that’s the last time we spent over 8 seasons there. Is it too much for a club like us to spend more than just a few seasons in the top flight? We spent 4 seasons up there under Bassett, 5 seasons in the currie era, 7 seasons in the 60’s our next best spell.
I don’t expect us to win the league but a bit of longevity in the top flight puts us in a decent position to maybe win a cup and with the money involved it also gives us scope to upgrade facilities.

We had our chance that comes around once every 20 years or so. We blew it. We didn’t get the players over the line we needed.

You can see with Anel dad the thinking with the players. If you sell and don’t add good players it really damages the group that’s there.

We needed to push on second season in PL with wilder and we didn’t.

 

[Bell4]

I think this is why Wilders first 3.5 years I'm charge was some of the best times in 30+ years. You felt proud to say who you supported, I enjoyed pundits talking about us and I enjoyed the thicker pundits writing us off and getting egg on their face.
We looked to be embracing a new culture of signing young hungry players on the up - we just have failed at continuing that the past 4 or so years when the fees got bigger.

Good post

Apart from our intention was to find Young hungry players … but we fkd up and blew the kitty and confidence

 

[ShorehamRevolution]

Good post

Apart from our intention was to find Young hungry players … but we fkd up and blew the kitty and confidence

I think most people at the time of signing them expected Brewster, Berge and Mcburnie to be better than they were, we were riding the crest of waves at the time of signing them and I think as a fan base we mainly expected them to just slot straight into the group. I also think the wages and stardom of players might’ve gone to a few of the existing members heads. If you’ve been playing in league 1/2 or lower and then all of a sudden you’ve got the winning mentality and getting recognised by fans more and more it’s going to affect some people. Naturally players talk and they know who’s earning what at whichever club, if you’ve been on £2k a week in league one and then you find yourself in the premier league a few years later and your contract goes up to 10k a week but you hear about some bench warmer at palace who’s played 3 times in 3 seasons but earns 40k a week your going to start pushing your luck and if you get turned down for your request of more money you may get the face on….. that’s just me speculating and making scenarios up in my head so take no notice but I’m probably on the right tracks concerning some individuals

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Yorkshire is the fucking backwater of English football.

I'd still say Leeds are the biggest club in Yorkshire and even they can't attract any interest.

Us and Wednesday are pretty much laughing stocks by now.

Completely irrelevant.

 

[LBA_Blade]

It's disappointing that despite spending 3 out of 5 seasons in the PL, nothing has changed within the infrastructure of the club apart from the odd lick of paint or cladding.

I could just about accept the pathetic approach by us in the summer if the PL money we were receiving this season went on something like a new stand, training ground or ploughing money into a proper scouting system and benefit us from years to come, but it seems that behind the scenes we're still run like a League 1 club.

Until we sort this out then we can forget any longevity in the top flight, without a wealthy backer a club like us needs to be funded by making huge profits on players like what Brighton and Brentford have done.

100% This cash is king and if you don’t have it we will also be a 1 or at very best 2 season wonder. Least we broke the cycle of being the Championship. Although I don’t like the idea of being a selling club we need to bring our scouting network into 21st century. Brighton used a good “loophole” to bring in Kaoru Mitoma https://www.boodlehatfield.com/arti...nal-sportsperson-visa-for-footballers-agents/

What they did was due to him not qualifying for a UK visa they sponsored him as an employer using the Elite Significant Contribution there is a table on the FA’s website as to how they work this out. Because he was playing in Japans A league but didn’t have the right number of international caps he couldn’t get a normal UK visa. We can register/sponsor 4 players and loan them into the football league if needed at pro level. It is a bit of a minefield but if they are potential players for the future they can get signed on the books

 

[LBA_Blade]

We obviously need investment in the club both on in the squad and out of football in the infrastructure. If you look at the Premier League table gap, that “top 6” is now starting to turn into a “top 13” possibly 14 if Everton didn’t slip up on FFP. I have been looking on some forums and the one that interests me the most is Fulham they complain about their owner, with the running theme that their 1980s fans can’t afford to go anymore and constantly moaning, realistically although I would say their core fan base is small and very small against PL standards this is cleverly rightfully or wrongly topped up with PL “Tourists” which they don’t like. That newly developed stand next to the River had tickets for the Burnley game on sale for £150 each yet they sold out. Usually it’s aimed at the Americans visiting who are “neutral” but probably lean towards a Liverpool or Man U as that’s what they see. Even their FA Cup prices for a Saturday 7pm TV game start at £45! Be interesting to see how many Geordies are in other areas of the ground. Although we rightfully pride ourselves on our fan base which does have some reach (it dragged me in but that was in ‘94) sometimes we think we want top flight at the moment naturally that’s where the money is but top flight with still having red and white blood is the aim which is more difficult than it seems.

 

[Programmechap2]

Yorkshire is the fucking backwater of English football.

I'd still say Leeds are the biggest club in Yorkshire and even they can't attract any interest.

Us and Wednesday are pretty much laughing stocks by now.

Completely irrelevant.

Trophies won by Yorks Clubs

Wednesday 8 (4 lge 3 FAC 1 LC)
Leeds 7 (3 Lge, 1 FAC, 1 LC, 2 fairs Cup)
United 5 (4 FA Cup 1 lge)
Huddersfield 4 (3 Lge 1 Fac)
Bradford 1 (Fac)
Barnsley 1 (Fac)
Middlesbrough 1 (Lc)

Total 27.

Only 9 of those trophies was post war (all of Leeds, the Wednesday LC and the Middlesbrough one) and there's been only 1 since 1992 (the Middlesbrough LC in 2004).

By contrast, Lancashire have 160 trophies, with Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool all beating Yorkshire individually.

 

[Programmechap2]

Trophies won by Yorks Clubs

Wednesday 8 (4 lge 3 FAC 1 LC)
Leeds 7 (3 Lge, 1 FAC, 1 LC, 2 fairs Cup)
United 5 (4 FA Cup 1 lge)
Huddersfield 4 (3 Lge 1 Fac)
Bradford 1 (Fac)
Barnsley 1 (Fac)
Middlesbrough 1 (Lc)

Total 27.

Only 9 of those trophies was post war (all of Leeds, the Wednesday LC and the Middlesbrough one) and there's been only 1 since 1992 (the Middlesbrough LC in 2004).

By contrast, Lancashire have 160 trophies, with Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool all beating Yorkshire individually.

In fact, in the last 50 years there's only been 3 trophies coming to Yorks
Wednesday LC 91
Leeds Lge 92
Boro LC 04.