Kyron Gordon

[borg elite]

Can you explain it to me then.

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized."

There's a big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country.

 

[pommpey]

What the fuck goes through their minds when they see a black player and they thing 'Tell you what, I'm going to make monkey noises at him'. Do they actually think those around him will be amused or join in? Do they think Gordon will just 'take it'? Do they think they will get respect or kudos from doing it?

Worst part about this is that racism isn't an inherent trait or characteristic. It's learned and gained from others, usually starting in families.

Fucking ignorant, stupid and bigoted. Anyone who does this should get a ten year ban.

pommpey

 

[pommpey]

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized."

There's a big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country.

There's a vague, blurred line between tribalism and racism. You could pitch that the Irish, Welsh and Scots (for example) are from a particular European ethnicity (Gaelic), where as Britons and other 'English' origins are of European origin. Does it deserve bookmarking as Irish = thick, Welsh = fuck sheep and Scots = alcoholics? All of these tags are prejudicial, discriminatory and antagonistic. Sure, it's no 'monkey noises' in terms of severity, but its for the aggrieved to judge, is it not?

pommpey

 

[ATL Recs]

I disagree, not heard our fans do it anywhere for a start.

I have but not for a long time

 

[Gavlar]

I would gently point out that people from Liverpool or Nottingham are not a different race and therefore calling someone a scouser is not racist, it’s identifying by a negative stereotype. I would also add that I haven’t heard a racist chant or language from a Blade since the early eighties when it was still pretty common.

Interesting. Would you call an American referring to someone from Nottingham as a 'scab' racist?
Are people from one particular geographical part of the country a race? What defines a race?

 

[Gavlar]

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized."

There's a big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country.

So for calling people scabs, it includes prejudice, discrimination and antagonism centred towards a race of people from nottingham.

If someone is called a scab simply because they come from nottingham, regardless of whether they were miners, or their family were, what kind of prejudice and discrimination does that fall into if not racism?

Some scousers are clear that they are scouse not British, they certainly seem like they feel they are a race of people to me. Maybe they are misguided in that thought, maybe they aren't?

How would you define a racial or ethnic group? Why does it not apply to geographical area?

Can you elaborate on the big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country?

 

[BladesOnToast]

I really can’t imagine it ever happening at the Lane

"Town full of Isis" v Bradford, the Adkins season I think?

 

[S64 Blade]

"Town full of Isis" v Bradford, the Adkins season I think?

Wasn’t there, so can’t comment!

 

[borg elite]

So for calling people scabs, it includes prejudice, discrimination and antagonism centred towards a race of people from nottingham.

If someone is called a scab simply because they come from nottingham, regardless of whether they were miners, or their family were, what kind of prejudice and discrimination does that fall into if not racism?

Some scousers are clear that they are scouse not British, they certainly seem like they feel they are a race of people to me. Maybe they are misguided in that thought, maybe they aren't?

How would you define a racial or ethnic group? Why does it not apply to geographical area?

Can you elaborate on the big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country?

People from Nottingham aren't a different race. Race is typically focussed on physical differences. Being black for example.

There's a decent article here on the difference between race and ethnicity. I'm sure there are better ones out there. https://www.verywellmind.com/difference-between-race-and-ethnicity-5074205

I'm not sure what you'd call that kind of hatred between different areas in the UK. It's definitely tribal. A deep topic!

 

[Le Cynique]

So for calling people scabs, it includes prejudice, discrimination and antagonism centred towards a race of people from nottingham.

If someone is called a scab simply because they come from nottingham, regardless of whether they were miners, or their family were, what kind of prejudice and discrimination does that fall into if not racism?

Some scousers are clear that they are scouse not British, they certainly seem like they feel they are a race of people to me. Maybe they are misguided in that thought, maybe they aren't?

How would you define a racial or ethnic group? Why does it not apply to geographical area?

Can you elaborate on the big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country?

All racism is bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism.

 

[Gavlar]

People from Nottingham aren't a different race. Race is typically focussed on physical differences. Being black for example.

There's a decent article here on the difference between race and ethnicity. I'm sure there are better ones out there. https://www.verywellmind.com/difference-between-race-and-ethnicity-5074205

I'm not sure what you'd call that kind of hatred between different areas in the UK. It's definitely tribal. A deep topic!

Would you say ginger or blonde or whatever colour haired people are a race?

Are blue or green or brown eyed people a race?

What about people who are both white with the same colour hair etc but from different countries, i.e. Swedish and Australian?
Are they different races or the same?

Thanks for the useful link.

Tis indeed a deep topic!

 

[Gavlar]

All racism is bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism.

You're probably right, although that throws up another question as to how bigotry is defined.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

The thing is, you can demonise people by demonising the place they live. I worked for an organisation with large offices in Darlington, Sheffield & London. On the internal message board thingy, someone working in Darlington made a joke along the lines of - a bomb has exploded in Brixton & caused £500,000 worth of improvements. A colleague working in London (and living in Brixton) felt that was a racist joke. And, listening to them, I had some sympathy.

It was basically saying that Brixton, an area which has a large black population, is a shithole. And, the danger is how close that veers towards - Brixton is a shithole because it has a large black population.

I felt very uncomfortable with some of the comments made about Luton (as a place) when we played them recently. Luton has a majority ethnic population, a minority White British population. Can people who call Luton a shithole justify that in terms of the place. Really? Or do they think it is a shithole because it has a large population of people from Asian & Black backgrounds?

To be blunt - what is it about the majority ethnic town of Luton that makes you think it's a shithole?

Personally, I am trying to be careful about criticising & stereotyping people from other towns & cities in the UK. It can be problematic.

And ... every town/city in the UK has at least one banging pub or craft beer bar selling some ridiculous abv beer made by some hero. How can it be a shithole?

 

[Bert]

The thing is, you can demonise people by demonising the place they live. I worked for an organisation with large offices in Darlington, Sheffield & London. On the internal message board thingy, someone working in Darlington made a joke along the lines of - a bomb has exploded in Brixton & caused £500,000 worth of improvements. A colleague working in London (and living in Brixton) felt that was a racist joke. And, listening to them, I had some sympathy.

It was basically saying that Brixton, an area which has a large black population, is a shithole. And, the danger is how close that veers towards - Brixton is a shithole because it has a large black population.

I felt very uncomfortable with some of the comments made about Luton (as a place) when we played them recently. Luton has a majority ethnic population, a minority White British population. Can people who call Luton a shithole justify that in terms of the place. Really? Or do they think it is a shithole because it has a large population of people from Asian & Black backgrounds?

To be blunt - what is it about the majority ethnic town of Luton that makes you think it's a shithole?

Personally, I am trying to be careful about criticising & stereotyping people from other towns & cities in the UK. It can be problematic.

And ... every town/city in the UK has at least one banging pub or craft beer bar selling some ridiculous abv beer made by some hero. How can it be a shithole?

Where does Gainsborough fit into all this?

 

[Gavlar]

The thing is, you can demonise people by demonising the place they live. I worked for an organisation with large offices in Darlington, Sheffield & London. On the internal message board thingy, someone working in Darlington made a joke along the lines of - a bomb has exploded in Brixton & caused £500,000 worth of improvements. A colleague working in London (and living in Brixton) felt that was a racist joke. And, listening to them, I had some sympathy.

It was basically saying that Brixton, an area which has a large black population, is a shithole. And, the danger is how close that veers towards - Brixton is a shithole because it has a large black population.

I felt very uncomfortable with some of the comments made about Luton (as a place) when we played them recently. Luton has a majority ethnic population, a minority White British population. Can people who call Luton a shithole justify that in terms of the place. Really? Or do they think it is a shithole because it has a large population of people from Asian & Black backgrounds?

To be blunt - what is it about the majority ethnic town of Luton that makes you think it's a shithole?

Personally, I am trying to be careful about criticising & stereotyping people from other towns & cities in the UK. It can be problematic.

And ... every town/city in the UK has at least one banging pub or craft beer bar selling some ridiculous abv beer made by some hero. How can it be a shithole?

Great post mate.

 

[Demon Blade]

So for calling people scabs, it includes prejudice, discrimination and antagonism centred towards a race of people from nottingham.

If someone is called a scab simply because they come from nottingham, regardless of whether they were miners, or their family were, what kind of prejudice and discrimination does that fall into if not racism?

Some scousers are clear that they are scouse not British, they certainly seem like they feel they are a race of people to me. Maybe they are misguided in that thought, maybe they aren't?

How would you define a racial or ethnic group? Why does it not apply to geographical area?

Can you elaborate on the big distinction between racism and name calling of people from different parts of the country?

If Whoopi Goldberg can refer to Nazi German's persecution of Jews as "not about race" not sure she would be agreeing with you on this. Obviously she's talking bollocks but how far do we stretch things before we're all talking bollocks.

 

[Gaini Blade]

Where does Gainsborough fit into all this?

The former capital of England is these days an idyllic market town populated by gentle folk some of whom are on here!

 

[Nick Jansky]

Tribalism is ultimately based on fear, mainly fear of not getting what we think we should have or losing what we’ve already got, as is all hatred and every single “ism”, and the fact it still exists merely illustrates that, as much as we like to consider ourselves “civilised”, many of us are still just scared little boys and girls.

 

[Antarctic Monkey]

Can we still call Wensdeh fans pigs?

 

[pommpey]

The thing is, you can demonise people by demonising the place they live. I worked for an organisation with large offices in Darlington, Sheffield & London. On the internal message board thingy, someone working in Darlington made a joke along the lines of - a bomb has exploded in Brixton & caused £500,000 worth of improvements. A colleague working in London (and living in Brixton) felt that was a racist joke. And, listening to them, I had some sympathy.

It was basically saying that Brixton, an area which has a large black population, is a shithole. And, the danger is how close that veers towards - Brixton is a shithole because it has a large black population.

I felt very uncomfortable with some of the comments made about Luton (as a place) when we played them recently. Luton has a majority ethnic population, a minority White British population. Can people who call Luton a shithole justify that in terms of the place. Really? Or do they think it is a shithole because it has a large population of people from Asian & Black backgrounds?

To be blunt - what is it about the majority ethnic town of Luton that makes you think it's a shithole?

Personally, I am trying to be careful about criticising & stereotyping people from other towns & cities in the UK. It can be problematic.

And ... every town/city in the UK has at least one banging pub or craft beer bar selling some ridiculous abv beer made by some hero. How can it be a shithole?

There's a fair point in this, however in most cases conflating the ethnic mix of a region with outsiders opinions of it's condition and doing a 2+2=RACISM is somewhat flawed. Majority white areas exist which are similarly struggling economically and socially, and always have even before the diversification of the UKs population spread. If an area has a collective community appearance and identity it can be aligned to ethnic attitudes but that isn't always the case. Other factors come into play and its somewhat disingenuous to assume visiting football fans are racists because they cast negative comments on a local area's outlook. There is a difference between these two chants:

"Town full of Poundshops!"

"Town full of Pakis!"

One is a critique of the locality, the other is abhorrent racism. Neither have overlaps in any Venn Diagram.

pommpey

 

[Rochdaleblade]

Can we still call Hull a shithole? What % of non indigenous people does it have to have before it becomes un acceptable??

 

[Stevo]

"Town full of Isis" v Bradford, the Adkins season I think?

I think it was "town full of Isa's" refering to the number of tax free savings accounts they had in Bradford

 

[Yogi]

There's a vague, blurred line between tribalism and racism. You could pitch that the Irish, Welsh and Scots (for example) are from a particular European ethnicity (Gaelic), where as Britons and other 'English' origins are of European origin. Does it deserve bookmarking as Irish = thick, Welsh = fuck sheep and Scots = alcoholics? All of these tags are prejudicial, discriminatory and antagonistic. Sure, it's no 'monkey noises' in terms of severity, but its for the aggrieved to judge, is it not?

pommpey

I think you’d have difficulty really establishing any sort of ethnic distinction to any part of Britain just based on the long and complex history of the British Isles.

We the English are obviously Mongrels made up of everything from across Western Europe and Scandinavia pretty much.

The Scots likewise are very diverse in origin made up of what we assume are P Celtic British Picts, Q Celtic Irish Gaels Strong Scandinavian links in the North and the Isles and then French invitees to counter the Norman presence in England.

The Welsh have had over a thousand years of interactions with us, the Irish and Scandinavian raiders so that’s a degree of intermingling there.

And of course the Irish themselves have firstly had a very strong Scandinavian influx and then later Protestant settlement from England further adding to the genetic mix.

We’re a complex old hodgepodge all told I think there are clear cultural distinctions and those might form the grounds for a racist comment or attitude but it would have to be fairly pointed and specific I would think.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Can we still call Hull a shithole? What % of non indigenous people does it have to have before it becomes un acceptable??

This country is a shithole country. Because people who live in shithole towns accuse other people living in this shithole country of living in a shithole. Until we break the circle of shitholery we'll all be shitholers.

That's the very definition of a shithole country.

 

[Nick Jansky]

"Town full of Poundshops!"

"Town full of Pakis!"

One is a critique of the locality, the other is abhorrent racism. Neither have overlaps in any Venn Diagram.

pommpey

They both carry an assumption of superiority, and therefore power, over something regarded as being “other”.

 

[Mojo]

The thing is, you can demonise people by demonising the place they live. I worked for an organisation with large offices in Darlington, Sheffield & London. On the internal message board thingy, someone working in Darlington made a joke along the lines of - a bomb has exploded in Brixton & caused £500,000 worth of improvements. A colleague working in London (and living in Brixton) felt that was a racist joke. And, listening to them, I had some sympathy.

It was basically saying that Brixton, an area which has a large black population, is a shithole. And, the danger is how close that veers towards - Brixton is a shithole because it has a large black population.

I felt very uncomfortable with some of the comments made about Luton (as a place) when we played them recently. Luton has a majority ethnic population, a minority White British population. Can people who call Luton a shithole justify that in terms of the place. Really? Or do they think it is a shithole because it has a large population of people from Asian & Black backgrounds?

To be blunt - what is it about the majority ethnic town of Luton that makes you think it's a shithole?

Personally, I am trying to be careful about criticising & stereotyping people from other towns & cities in the UK. It can be problematic.

And ... every town/city in the UK has at least one banging pub or craft beer bar selling some ridiculous abv beer made by some hero. How can it be a shithole?

I don't just think it's the ethnic background of the area that makes people think it's a shithole, its usually just poverty. For example most people would say page hall is a shit hole, but the same people would probably say jordo and low edges are shit holes too and they are mainly white areas

 

[Alan Birchenall's hair]

Similarly, calling Wednesday 'Wendy' would probably be classed as gentle fun poking. Calling an Owls fan a 'pig' is obviously an insult, and I never do it. I'm a silly old bugger now, but any Owls fan who called me a pig to my face would get a bop on the nose. After all, you can take the boy out of Gleadless Valley, but you can't ....etc.

 

[knowsnowt]

Reyt. From now on, anyone who slags Wybourn off is getting called a racist.
It's all getting a bit daft really isn't it. You won't even be able to have feelings soon.

 

[Teddy]

I think there’s some conflation of issues here - racism definitely requires a racial/ethnic element. It can’t just be about nationality (that’s xenophobic), geographical area etc. Saying (for example) that Norfolk is a backwater full of inbred weirdos is not nice, it’s prejudiced, discriminatory and hateful (if delivered with any venom or hate), but it’s not racist.

Hate is hate - so I’m not advocating any such behaviours. But I think one of the key differences is that ragging on a neighbouring city/area can still be done in jest as long as everyone is having a laugh. I enjoy the odd dig at some Barnsley folk about having 6 fingers (and the like) but I deliver it when I’m with my mates from that neck of the woods so I know they get the spirit of it, and I know full well they’ll give as good as they get.

Conversely - racism in the UK has reached a point where you don’t joke about it, doesn’t matter if it’s well intentioned. I’m not knocking that because far too many actually hateful people try to disguise their racist bigotry with “humour”. Better to throw the racist jokes baby out with the racist bathwater.

 

[pommpey]

They both carry an assumption of superiority, and therefore power, over something regarded as being “other”.

Hmm, whilst true, one is a sociological observation and one is an ethnic observation. Whilst both are insults or slurs, there is definitely a differentiation between the two.

pommpey