Jose Baxter

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Agreed. The problem is how do we get The Beard to full back without the requirement for Bash at centre half?

I think our midfield is as poor as the defence. I think we need Basham in the middle of the park.

UTB

yep, agree with Basham in CM - always have but take most Blades opinions that he is the "better" option at CH considering what we have.

I know it's radical, but my theory is if the midfield is strong then the opposition don't get to the centre halves so would have Coutts /Basham
plus Doyle or Holt. Holt for the simple reason (a) he strikes a good ball (b) he pops up in the box and scores, unlike scoogs that doesn't.

For centre half - we start Kennedy - just hope he lasts - if not, then we fill in with Alcock? The REAL and PROPER solution is Collins - now match fit thanks to PV. I just ask Clough to swallow his pride (if that is indeed the issue) and do what is BEST for the team - our team, my team, your team.........and yes, the managers team. For me it's a no brainer.

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yep, agree with Basham in CM - always have but take most Blades opinions that he is the "better" option at CH considering what we have.

I know it's radical, but my theory is if the midfield is strong then the opposition don't get to the centre halves so would have Coutts /Basham
plus Doyle or Holt. Holt for the simple reason (a) he strikes a good ball (b) he pops up in the box and scores, unlike scoogs that doesn't.

For centre half - we start Kennedy - just hope he lasts - if not, then we fill in with Alcock? The REAL and PROPER solution is Collins - now match fit thanks to PV. I just ask Clough to swallow his pride (if that is indeed the issue) and do what is BEST for the team - our team, my team, your team.........and yes, the managers team. For me it's a no brainer.

UTB
Yes, hopefully Kennedy will be fit, but it seems unlikely he can hold out for 3 matches.

UTB
 
I like him a lot, but he's not playing to his potential. He should be the conductor of the team dictating pace and when we switch from just retaining the ball, moving the opposition out of shape, and looking to create a clear chance. In this respect he has been poor and regularly looks quite disinterested.
It should be Baxter playing the balls quickly to the widemen when the chance presents itself , or beating his man and putting a ball in behind the centre halves. This isn't happening and that is the main reason we retain the ball without a clear end product.
I do think he thinks he's too good for this league and plays that way.

However, what should be a very important point gets overlooked, and that is his age. To judge a player who's just turned 23 and trying to play one of the most technical difficult roles on the pitch is very hash.

All that said I wouldn't start him on Thursday and think we should go all out for a big win.
 
Baxter played really well last season in the fake number 9 role with Murphy and one other running off him.



I partly agree with that although I think Baxter was not really suited to that role. What strikes me is how last season the Murphys, Flynns, Scougalls, Coadys, Brayfords, Harris' all used to swarm the opposition with fast play and movement. How different it is now.
 
Yes, hopefully Kennedy will be fit, but it seems unlikely he can hold out for 3 matches.

UTB

but we have a natural replacement with Collins - fit and raring to go.
first preseason game - Collins played right CB, with Butler Left CB - we could go with Collins and Mceverly if kennedy isn't up to it.

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Jose Baxter is the most infuriating player I've ever seen wear the United shirt; obvious talent but not enough of the right mentality needed to make that talent count.

I agree with the concept that Jose is wasted wide or in the deep midfield role and that, if we are going to play the boy, he needs to play in the #10 role where he is best. However, if NC decided to put him in that spot for the Play Offs, I would worry about our midfield. The reason we continually HAVE to play three in midfield is that we haven't got enough legs or strength in that area of the pitch so we add an extra body which compensates by cutting down the space. Look at yesterday after Calvert-Lewin and Davies came on and played as a two up front. Time and time again, Chesterfield cut through our midfield pairing and Doyle never once made a legal tackle to destruct it. That's Doyle's job by the way - count how many tackles he makes and you'll be flabbergasted for a so-called defensive midfielder. For me, Doyle is a complete waste of a shirt and it means that the likes of Baxter - or Scougall or Holt when they play in the more advanced role - and Coutts partnering Doyle have got one eye on protecting the guy who is supposed to be protecting the back four. How many times did Chesterfield expose our centre halves yesterday? How many tackles went in to stop them?

To play the luxury that is Baxter at #10, you need the legs and strength in the midfield. We had, IMO, half of the equation last season in Conor Coady who ran, tackled and got forward. When Liverpool asked for £1m and we baulked but Huddersfield got him for £400,000, you have to wonder why we never tried to offer something. If we'd bid £500,000 at the start of the summer, we'd have got him and he'd have crawled here to play for us.

So we brought in Wallace, Holt and Basham. The best we've looked has been with Basham, once settled at the club, in that destructive midfielder role and that is no coincidence in my eyes. With Bash there, Coutts and Holt were freed up as Baxter and/or Scougall would similarly be. Unfortunately, Basham is needed at centre back and I can't see Clough not using him there.

If we sign two quality central defenders and a big, strong midfielder to partner Basham in the centre of the midfield, we'd get the best out of Jose in the #10 role. As it is, he's been poor and that's shown in other aspects of his game - laziness, lethargy, going for too much on his passing. I do honestly think that the root of our issues are the centre of the defence and the knock on it has on the rest of the team. Collins is NOT the answer for me, I can't see what would be gained through putting him back in there. If we're intent on playing Basham as DCM, it'd have to be Brayford and Kennedy/McEvely with Freeman at RB.

Massive few days for Clough, he needs to find a way for Thursday night.

UTB.
 
but we have a natural replacement with Collins - fit and raring to go.
first preseason game - Collins played right CB, with Butler Left CB - we could go with Collins and Mceverly if kennedy isn't up to it.

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For whatever reason, that doesn't seem like an option.

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For whatever reason, that doesn't seem like an option.

UTB

Clough has stated that Collins comes back into contention on his return from PV - depends whether anyone actually believes what he said.
For me it is a complete and utter waste words or thought if Clough has no intention in considering Collins considering our lack of proper CH's.
Clough may have his issues with some fans, but that would be as cynical as it comes and I don't for a minutes believe it - but that's just me - perhaps I am being naive.

UTB
 
Clough has stated that Collins comes back into contention on his return from PV - depends whether anyone actually believes what he said.
For me it is a complete and utter waste words or thought if Clough has no intention in considering Collins considering our lack of proper CH's.
Clough may have his issues with some fans, but that would be as cynical as it comes and I don't for a minutes believe it - but that's just me - perhaps I am being naive.

UTB
I don't blame Clough for spinning it, but I don't believe it. I will bare my arse on the town hall steps if Collins is in contention.

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yes we might if he goes - are you of the opinion that your mind is made up that he is useless and should go?

UTB
No not at the moment but that said, he doesn't fill me with confidence and I'm weary of his negativity towards anyone who disagrees with him (not to mention his monotone sound bites).

Haven't missed many games this season and all in all (IMO) we have under achieved. Think he has made some poor signings. Think he has employed some strange tactics at times (too often). Think his man management skills are questionable.

Still, now's not the time for rocking the boat but I do yearn to be excited and entertained.
 



No not at the moment but that said, he doesn't fill me with confidence and I'm weary of his negativity towards anyone who disagrees with him (not to mention his monotone sound bites).

Haven't missed many games this season and all in all (IMO) we have under achieved. Think he has made some poor signings. Think he has employed some strange tactics at times (too often). Think his man management skills are questionable.

Still, now's not the time for rocking the boat but I do yearn to be excited and entertained.

yep agree with a lot of that but it is no time for the trolls to start stirring the shit - I question their motives.
To be fair to lough the team at Derby wasn't as bad as some of their fans made out - we have our own set of complainants as Derby do.

This league is crap, Clough has under estimated this league and what is required and we are a sitting duck being the biggest name in it.

I rarely ask for divine intervention - we just need someone on our side going into the playoffs - as unlucky as we were against Wigan - I just want a tad of the luck on our side - reckon we are due some.

Keep the faith.

UTB
 
yep agree with a lot of that but it is no time for the trolls to start stirring the shit - I question their motives.
To be fair to lough the team at Derby wasn't as bad as some of their fans made out - we have our own set of complainants as Derby do.

This league is crap, Clough has under estimated this league and what is required and we are a sitting duck being the biggest name in it.

I rarely ask for divine intervention - we just need someone on our side going into the playoffs - as unlucky as we were against Wigan - I just want a tad of the luck on our side - reckon we are due some.

Keep the faith.

UTB
yep. I've been keeping it for 50 odd years and I can't see it changing (despite all the provocation).

I still get up very early on too many Saturday mornings to wind my way across the UK to the likes of Colchester, Crewe, Fleetwood, Gillingham, Rochdale and Yeovil - always hoping for the best.

It's been a hard old slog this season (one of the hardest in recent times) because the play has been so one dimensional and as such, so predictive. BUT who knows, it might come right for us at the end - then again, let's see what happens Thursday night first!

And yes..........UT'Fkg'B
 
yep. I've been keeping it for 50 odd years and I can't see it changing (despite all the provocation).

I still get up very early on too many Saturday mornings to wind my way across the UK to the likes of Colchester, Crewe, Fleetwood, Gillingham, Rochdale and Yeovil - always hoping for the best.

It's been a hard old slog this season (one of the hardest in recent times) because the play has been so one dimensional and as such, so predictive. BUT who knows, it might come right for us at the end - then again, let's see what happens Thursday night first!

And yes..........UT'Fkg'B

labour of love.....................but you KNOW you love it really.

UTB
 
Really enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread and some very insightful observations if I may say so. Seems the consensus is that whether Baxter is in the team or not, we need either a proper centre back to release Basham into midfield or a influential midfielder so that Basham can continue at CB. I'd forgotten about Wallace, I was impressed with him the very few times he played and perhaps if he returns that could partly solve the problem next season (although that doesn't help us in the next couple of weeks). It would be interesting to know if the manager had an ideal line up in his mind before the season started and what it was. I can't believe it was the team he put out in the first game!

I also gather Sitwell (and a few others) are not big fans of Jose!

Someone also made the point about the lack of movement and that has been my bugbear all season. As a (ahem!) ball playing midfielder myself, it's pretty impossible to make good creative passes when no one is moving and I feel this is another reason why Jose is struggling and why we are constantly going sideways, backwards and then nowhere. We had an attacking free kick on Sunday and two passes later it was back with Howard! Incidentally does anyone else think that Howard's kicking is awful? Very poor on Sunday.

I do wonder what the players actually do in training during the week!
 
Just for the record, I cannot envisage a SUFC team that contains Jose Baxter succeeding next season.

As others have said, either build a team around him or send him to a team who will.
 
I'm also a fan of Jose,although I'm struggling to think of him as a starter against Swindon as I think we need more mobile players like Bash and Scougs to combat Swindon,who have quick mobile players.
What I like about him is he tries to pass forward and make things happen...he maybe slow over the ground,but he doesn't slow the game down as he often plays first time passes..or if he does dwell on the ball he's got his head up looking to make something happen...ok sometimes it doesn't come off,but someone has got to pass the ball..we can't have a team of battlers or runners ...I've seen people posting up a midfield Doyle,Done,Bash,Holt,Murphy...I can see it's got goals in it with Done,Holt and Murphy...Battlers like Doyle and Bash...but we'd never keep the ball or create chances.
 
P.S. Afterthought. Creative players need other players to make runs and move into position for the ball. Our team has one up front marked by at least three players and the rest stand around like statues. Yesterday there was so little movement when we were in possession. It works against players like Baxter.

That's one of my key observations about him too, Woody. There's not enough movement ahead of him when he has the ball.
The other observation is that he hides too often - when the ball is being played out from the back he is not creating that half a yard or so, coming to the ball to receive, give and go again. It's subtle, he hides just enough not to be considered an option for the player with the ball and so it goes from one side of the pitch to the other to look for any space on the flanks.

One final observation. He's Wallace's mate isn't he?
Maybe that's why he gets more game time than his performances would suggest?
Or is that far too obscure?
 
That's one of my key observations about him too, Woody. There's not enough movement ahead of him when he has the ball.
The other observation is that he hides too often - when the ball is being played out from the back he is not creating that half a yard or so, coming to the ball to receive, give and go again. It's subtle, he hides just enough not to be considered an option for the player with the ball and so it goes from one side of the pitch to the other to look for any space on the flanks.

One final observation. He's Wallace's mate isn't he?
Maybe that's why he gets more game time than his performances would suggest?
Or is that far too obscure?


We've a few who don't exactly demand the ball. When Done plays it's like watching a revelation. We'd forgotten what it's like to watch a player go all out for all the 90 minutes. When Bassett was manager we had a full team doing that. Done makes a bad ball into a good one, how many others do that? Done moves around all game and always offers himself to the man with the ball. How many others do that? I reckon only Doyle does that and he does that no matter how badly he is playing, so does Done.
 
I'm also a fan of Jose,although I'm struggling to think of him as a starter against Swindon as I think we need more mobile players like Bash and Scougs to combat Swindon,who have quick mobile players.
What I like about him is he tries to pass forward and make things happen...he maybe slow over the ground,but he doesn't slow the game down as he often plays first time passes..or if he does dwell on the ball he's got his head up looking to make something happen...ok sometimes it doesn't come off,but someone has got to pass the ball..we can't have a team of battlers or runners ...I've seen people posting up a midfield Doyle,Done,Bash,Holt,Murphy...I can see it's got goals in it with Done,Holt and Murphy...Battlers like Doyle and Bash...but we'd never keep the ball or create chances.
See I think that is a myth ,just watch him closely ,he doesn't look forward ,9 out of 10 passes are sideways and that's not just to lack of options. When I say hes lazy I mean mentally not physically ,I don't think he would get near the team if he was physically unfit or overweight ,that is just a convenient excuse (but not a very favourable one). We have players to do the other jobs better than him ,winger and tackler , and he just hasn't stepped up to be a creative playmaker ,which is what we lack most of all and he gives the ball away far to frequently.. He doesn't even supply the wingers as much as the other midfielders and I agree with Ken ,he does hide. Nothing against him personally ,I actually like that type of laid back character ,I dislike him purely as a footballer and think he is the main reason we have been poor.
 
Jose Baxter is the most infuriating player I've ever seen wear the United shirt; obvious talent but not enough of the right mentality needed to make that talent count.

I agree with the concept that Jose is wasted wide or in the deep midfield role and that, if we are going to play the boy, he needs to play in the #10 role where he is best. However, if NC decided to put him in that spot for the Play Offs, I would worry about our midfield. The reason we continually HAVE to play three in midfield is that we haven't got enough legs or strength in that area of the pitch so we add an extra body which compensates by cutting down the space. Look at yesterday after Calvert-Lewin and Davies came on and played as a two up front. Time and time again, Chesterfield cut through our midfield pairing and Doyle never once made a legal tackle to destruct it. That's Doyle's job by the way - count how many tackles he makes and you'll be flabbergasted for a so-called defensive midfielder. For me, Doyle is a complete waste of a shirt and it means that the likes of Baxter - or Scougall or Holt when they play in the more advanced role - and Coutts partnering Doyle have got one eye on protecting the guy who is supposed to be protecting the back four. How many times did Chesterfield expose our centre halves yesterday? How many tackles went in to stop them?

To play the luxury that is Baxter at #10, you need the legs and strength in the midfield. We had, IMO, half of the equation last season in Conor Coady who ran, tackled and got forward. When Liverpool asked for £1m and we baulked but Huddersfield got him for £400,000, you have to wonder why we never tried to offer something. If we'd bid £500,000 at the start of the summer, we'd have got him and he'd have crawled here to play for us.

So we brought in Wallace, Holt and Basham. The best we've looked has been with Basham, once settled at the club, in that destructive midfielder role and that is no coincidence in my eyes. With Bash there, Coutts and Holt were freed up as Baxter and/or Scougall would similarly be. Unfortunately, Basham is needed at centre back and I can't see Clough not using him there.

If we sign two quality central defenders and a big, strong midfielder to partner Basham in the centre of the midfield, we'd get the best out of Jose in the #10 role. As it is, he's been poor and that's shown in other aspects of his game - laziness, lethargy, going for too much on his passing. I do honestly think that the root of our issues are the centre of the defence and the knock on it has on the rest of the team. Collins is NOT the answer for me, I can't see what would be gained through putting him back in there. If we're intent on playing Basham as DCM, it'd have to be Brayford and Kennedy/McEvely with Freeman at RB.

Massive few days for Clough, he needs to find a way for Thursday night.

UTB.

I think the cause and effect is the wrong way round here: we have midfielders for a 4-5-1 not a 4-4-2. We might be able to find a midfield 4 but I'm not sure who it would be. We have signed midfielders who are suited to 4-5-1. *If* it's true we don't have legs and strength there it's because those aren't priorities in a 5. It's not that we wanted a 4 but now have to play 5.

I know the players and team have to be and are adaptable but a strong 4-4-2 seems beyond our resources. Maybe with Bashambauer in there somewhere it could work.

Who did we finish with in the centre on Saturday when we were playing 4-4-2? Flynn and Baxter?

UTB
 
he is the main reason we have been poor.

Our lack of CH's is the biggest standout reason we have been poor I think, resulting in too many players out of position and too much defensive pressure on an already inadequate midfield. Even with the cauldron of vitriol you seem to reserve for Baxter I doubt even you can unreservedly single out Baxter to pin the blame on for some of the displays this season with a clear conscience, Sitters.:p He doesn't buy the players, he doesn't pick the team or the tactics and he isn't the one most accountable for the performance of the other players. The manager is and he keeps picking him so who does that buck stop with?.
 
See I think that is a myth ,just watch him closely ,he doesn't look forward ,9 out of 10 passes are sideways and that's not just to lack of options. When I say hes lazy I mean mentally not physically ,I don't think he would get near the team if he was physically unfit or overweight ,that is just a convenient excuse (but not a very favourable one). We have players to do the other jobs better than him ,winger and tackler , and he just hasn't stepped up to be a creative playmaker ,which is what we lack most of all and he gives the ball away far to frequently.. He doesn't even supply the wingers as much as the other midfielders and I agree with Ken ,he does hide. Nothing against him personally ,I actually like that type of laid back character ,I dislike him purely as a footballer and think he is the main reason we have been poor.


That view is irrational, think about what you said. " the main reason we have been poor". I think you have an obsession.

Hey I'm not just saying that because I'm looking to "score points". This is the whole thing about Baxter, it's all about his ability and the expectation that his ability engenders. At this stage he has not produced the results to match his ability, but that is always a complex matter, especially in a poor side, particularly one where such a player is peripheral rather than the key man. That's up to the manager. Yes, I'd say drop him rather than play him up front, out wide or deep midfield; it's just daft.
 
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That view is irrational, think about what you said. " the main reason we have been poor". I think you have an obsession.
Lack of goals and opportunities is the main reason we have been boring and not gained enough points. Our main supplier has yet to put a meaningful appearance in yet. I really don't understand why he is given such an easy ride when other players get hammered.
 
I think the cause and effect is the wrong way round here: we have midfielders for a 4-5-1 not a 4-4-2. We might be able to find a midfield 4 but I'm not sure who it would be. We have signed midfielders who are suited to 4-5-1. *If* it's true we don't have legs and strength there it's because those aren't priorities in a 5. It's not that we wanted a 4 but now have to play 5.

I know the players and team have to be and are adaptable but a strong 4-4-2 seems beyond our resources. Maybe with Bashambauer in there somewhere it could work.

Who did we finish with in the centre on Saturday when we were playing 4-4-2? Flynn and Baxter?

UTB


Absolutely right WHF. We play 4-5-1 and do not have the players, despite 23 or more signings.

Now we would love to play 4-4-2 but don't have the players, apart from two very good players for the front two - Done and Davies, but not the other bits in midfield. Rank management to be sure.

What the f***.
 



Lack of goals and opportunities is the main reason we have been boring and not gained enough points. Our main supplier has yet to put a meaningful appearance in yet. I really don't understand why he is given such an easy ride when other players get hammered.


Please tell me why Baxter is "our main supplier".
 

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