Is this really our only option...?

[KMC-1889]

It's all a bit ridiculous.
Is he going to be on a 1yr deal?
The owners need to get the structure sorted so the next manager isn't screwed before he starts.

My 7 year old son was able to guess who the next manager is (if CW). That's not a normal situation.

They’re still paying his contract, so it’ll be on whatever is left of that (2 years?)

 

[Booker4]

Because;

1. 92 points is completely irrelevant when the three clubs they got promoted got 100,100 & 76. I’d have taken 80 points if it meant promotion. Quoting a points total out of context is stupid.

2. He bottled every single big game last season, both in the league and the play off final. He was 2 points clear with 7 games and had to play 5 teams in the bottom of half of the table and he approached this by playing dull, negative, defensive football. We were an incredibly defensive team that couldn’t defend against any players with a bit of pace.

Coupled to this incredibly shaky defence our attacking stats & fitness levels were some of the worst in the league.

All his achievements came over 5 years ago. He gets all the praise for 2016-2019 but ducks the blame for 20/21 and not being any better when he replaced Hecky.

Wilder needs united more than United need Wilder. Wasn’t a massive clamour for his signature over the summer was there? Brentford chose his back room staff rather than than giving him the job.

I just want my football club to behave like other professional clubs. I don’t want a circus ringleader mouthing off in interviews and dancing on tables. It’s embarrassing and makes us look like a tinpot Sunday league club

More importantly, what if he does what he did when he replaced PH and results don’t improve? Where do we go from there?

Fair play in your post here because it's well articulated and I can see some of your points. However, lets remember that we lost two of our better players to season ending injuries. Had Souttar and Arblaster stayed for I'm fairly sure we'd have run the top two even closer or gone up top 2. We didn't bottle those matches, Leeds and Burnley were just better sides. We lost other matches like Plymouth which we should have won I agree. It's fine margins though and we could have win those too, but I can see why you think we bottled it.

As for the singing on tables. I really do think this is of very little importance either way. It's dar more embarrassing where we are now than Wilder singing in a pub in my view.

In conclusion. We definitely need Wilder more than he needs us given our current league position.

 

[The Fox]

I think you've misread the room buddy.

Think you'll find the analogy is correct but you've got it arse about it.

It's Wilder who's throwing out the demands. Reject my transfers? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. Tell me I can't use international breaks to go play golf on the Algarve? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. Question my antics in the Banner? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. In fact COH, you're going to have to give me exactly what I want, otherwise you'll be back wondering whether Selles or Danny Rohl is the better option....

Nice one .

I think there are 2 rooms on here .

Wilder gets results which is undoubtedly what we need .. unfortunately some of us got frustrated with the antics and blaming everyone but himself.. some humility wouldn't go amiss .

Like most just hoping for a change in results more than anything , steady the ship and let's all take it from there .

 

[Need4speed]

My only thought was they, the owners decided in the summer that Wilder wasn't the man they wanted. Why? - we don't know. It wasn't an instant decision and there were clearly meetings between the owners and Wilder. My issue is what has changed? And don't come back at me and say we have lost 6 games and Selles was out of his depth. That just means we need a new manager but why Wilder?

 

[KMC-1889]

Fair play in your post here because it's well articulated and I can see some of your points. However, lets remember that we lost two of our better players to season ending injuries. Had Souttar and Arblaster stayed for I'm fairly sure we'd have run the top two even closer or gone up top 2. We didn't bottle those matches, Leeds and Burnley were just better sides. We lost other matches like Plymouth which we should have won I agree. It's fine margins though and we could have win those too, but I can see why you think we bottled it.

As for the singing on tables. I really do think this is of very little importance either way. It's dar more embarrassing where we are now than Wilder singing in a pub in my view.

In conclusion. We definitely need Wilder more than he needs us given our current league position.

Thank you. I don’t hate wilder and will always be grateful for that four year run he gave us, but just like Bassett and Warnock we have to move on. The longer we’re stuck in this loop the more likely it is that, just like we missed the boat in the premier league, championship clubs will leave us behind as well

 

[FriethBlade]

This is what happens when you have no proper structure and everything goes through the manager. It's pretty clear we need a DOF or someone sat between the CEO and the manager. They set the strategy and vision for the whole club for the next 5 years and whoever is manager manages to that strategy, as does the academy manager, recruitment team etc.. Then if a managerial change is needed they 'just slot into the structure'.

We are currently in a position where every manager change involves a complete change in playing style/philosophy so it almost sets up any new manager coming in to fail as they dont get time to implement their strategy which will also usually involve a big turnover in players. Therefore we have to revert to 'type'. We have seen that with both Slav and Selles. Now if 'type' is our strategy then fine but dont then employ someone who doesn't fit that 'type'

At the minute it seems like every time a new manager fails ( and with us they dont get more than a couple of months) we just revert to CW and thats no kind of long term strategy. A DOF is more important than a new manager or we are doomed to continue flip flopping.

 

[Blade In Flame]

It's not because Chrissy is one of our own or he gets the club at all. They're just bonuses. It's because he's actually a very good football manager. I just can't fathom why some of our fanbase can't see this as the only thing that matters because within our limitations as a football club in terms of size, the league we're in and current position I don't see a better manager than Wilder who we could get. He also knows many of the players and succeeded with them last season. But no, let's get Michael Carrick or why can't we get Sean Dyche. Probably because he knows he's got a great chance if a OK club. Then you've got some fans who dont want Dyche because his football is defensive! Deary me, that's the one thing we need sorting more than anything else.

So you can make out that it's fans saying none of that foreign muck but it's far more because Wilder has a very good record as a manager, end of.

Totally agree. There's no accounting for people's ego. Personally, I don't care if it's Gary Megson, as long as he fires us up the league, staves off the threat of relegation and then possibly, POSSIBLY, gives us a fighting chance of the play-offs. Only Wilder can come in and hit the ground running at this time, without a two or three week bedding in period. We can't afford another two or three losses. Not saying that the next three games are shoe-in wins for Wilder, but he has a better chance of making that happen than someone totally new to the club.

At the end of the day, I support the club and want what's best for MY club but to hear some of the anti-Wilder lot go on, you'd think that they don't care about the club, they just care about their little bruised egos, because they don't like Wilder, for whatever reason and he might be coming back. Same as people don't like Warnock, another lifelong Blade who gave us some great times. It's a bit pathetic really. Do you support SUFC or Ego FC?

 

[54yrblade]

Football Heaven was interesting last night. Sycophancy central.

For me if he's back in the building, then we need, not want, to see

Better football than last season. It was dire
Some signs of improving fitness and ability to last 90+. Last season was hopeless in that respect.
Improved mentality and ability to fight through setbacks. Last season evidenced that it was weak in all the big games bar the PO semi final, including the mentality of the management team too.
Some humility when things go wrong in matches. 'It's on me' 'my fault, I got that wrong' would be good occasionally.

'Let's go round again' Average White Band 1980 is the song of the week.

 

[Jean Luc]

A lot of what I'm about to say has probably been picked up in other threads, but I don't know that there's one that really captures it all.
Ruben Selles has clearly been a disastrous appointment. I think it was well-intentioned, with an eye to the future, but one that hasn't worked out. Whilst Selles himself was probably out of his depth, his appointment was only one part of a series of changes that needed to be made, in relation to overall strategy, management and coaching structure, recruitment etc. That none of the other changes happened, probably meant that, whomever the coach was, they'd have struggled, to a greater or lesser degree. I was a supporter of moving on from Wilder; as was said on the late, lamented Bladespod, the new approach had a higher ceiling, but also perhaps a lower floor. Sadly, it's the latter of those two predictions which has come to pass. Doesn't necessarily mean that the vision was wrong; however, clearly, the strategy and execution underpinning it was deeply flawed.

So, Selles' position became untenable and he was dismissed. But is going back to Wilder really the best we can do? I have mixed feelings on this. I think that it's unquestionably the safest thing we can do. He's only been out of the building for five minutes, so will be able to pick up where he left off. He does seem to be able to inspire a team (though interestingly, it only seems to work with United, as his other body of work is underwhelming), and I think that the threat of relegation is eliminated by his return.

But...
Really? Wilder? Is he really the best possible option for the club? Is there really no way to move on? People wax lyrical about how he "gets" the club, how he's "one of our own" and all that tosh, when none of that seems to matter when we're talking about professional players, paid to do a job to the best of their ability. What does it even mean, to "get" the club? What makes SUFC apparently uniquely ungettable by other managers, coaches or owners? I'm genuinely curious. I understand that Wilder has a special place in the club's history, and that he's been canonised by an appreciable proportion of the fanbase. But, sooner or later, for one reason or another, he'll have to move on. What then? I've seen, in these threads, Billy Sharp and Chris Basham cited as possible replacements. Again: really? Is Bladey-bladeness in a coach all we can reasonably aspire to? These are club legends - but with zero coaching experience. On paper at least, Selles would be a better hire!

Like I said, I think Wilder will get us out of this mess. But as fans of a club that will endure long after Wilder, we should be looking for evidence of the next step and the one after that. We need a club and a process that is not in thrall to one man. Everyone cites Brighton as the model for a well run club. Their managers and players are regularly picked off... and it doesn't matter, because they have underlying strategy and clarity of purpose. I very much hope that one thing that comes out of this debacle is that a deeply experienced football director (not CW! That would have echoes of Putin oscillating between president and PM) is appointed, who will figure out what we want to be, what we need to get there - and then start working through it.

This is one of the most thoughtful posts I’ve ever seen on here. Rational, balanced and full of logic explaining very clearly options and decision making.
I fully concur with your summary and most import, your conclusion.
If the owners think they win back the fans by appointing Chrissy then it shows they have done little research other than to listen to the noise of only a portion of the fans.
We will remain divided and that’s in no one’s best interest.

 

[Blade59]

I was not totally against making a change at the end of last season although also would have had no problem with continuing with Wilder and seeing how it goes this season. I had assumed the owners had seen something in Selles that was not obvious from his record which at best could be described as underwhelming. Clearly it was a huge mistake.

I agree that long term we need to move to something different but we do not have the structure in place to be able to do that. Chris in the short term is therefore our best option currently. We cannot take a gamble given where we now find ourselves as relegation would be a very real possibility. If he can get us functioning quickly a top 6 position is still possible but the first priority is just to get us away from a relegation battle so lets not get ahead of ourselves. Hopefully Chris will get us back on track and the owners in the meantime can start putting in the structure that we need for the longer term.

 

[Dkc]

I think a lot of the time us fans(and those of other clubs) are far too arrogant with an inflated sense of self-worth. You only have to look at them lot in S6 to see the extreme of that notion.

Owners do not give a solitary fuck about us as fans. We influence the square root of fuck all. No amount of protesting, writing to MPs or whining to shit radio phone ins will alter that.

All they care about is their investment. Does the decision they make add or subtract value from their asset. The decision came about as they realised their £100m investment was about to worth less than half that if the trajectory was to continue. Hiring Wilder is aimed at getting their asset back to its market value.

Any fans who think they're that important or play any significance in the grand scheme are simply deluded

But it's constantly claimed that the fans ARE the club, and "the club would be nothing without the fans".

Is this bollocks?

 

[Carlton Blade]

I think we'll be fine.

There's 4 games to the International break now. Needs to be targeting 6pts plus. Ideally 8pts, if if being greedy 10!

• Charlton (h) - 3pts
• Oxford (a) - 1pt
• Southampton (h) - 1pt
• Hull (a) - 3pts

Coming back in, that's 3/4 "nice" games to start with

Charlton gave Millwall a good game on Saturday, Oxford should have beaten Leicester. Southampton have better players than United and Hull are scoring goals. I think it's a much more competitive divsion this season

 

[Mumbo]

Some people’s dislike of Wilders behaviour seems to have blinded them to the fact that he’s a top manager at championship level.

 

[Rodley]

I do wonder if the fans understand what’s coming. As of next season we’re at best a Norwich (but much less professional). At worst, we’re where Stoke spent the last few years.

It’s so difficult.

It’s basically why the decision to make a radical change at the club was so egregiously stupid.

 

[William Large]

Football Heaven was interesting last night. Sycophancy central.

For me if he's back in the building, then we need, not want, to see

Better football than last season. It was dire
Some signs of improving fitness and ability to last 90+. Last season was hopeless in that respect.
Improved mentality and ability to fight through setbacks. Last season evidenced that it was weak in all the big games bar the PO semi final, including the mentality of the management team too.
Some humility when things go wrong in matches. 'It's on me' 'my fault, I got that wrong' would be good occasionally.

'Let's go round again' Average White Band 1980 is the song of the week.

It would be refreshing for him to show some humility from the start.

Admit that we fucked up spectacularly at the back end of last season ( even taking into account Burnley and Leeds’ form)

Admit that we were negative for large parts of last season.

Admit that he got it wrong in the second half / last 20 mins of the play off final and even further got it wrong at the end of the match when he disappeared down then tunnel straightaway.

Might go some way to bringing some of the nay sayers on board and install a bit more unity amongst the fans.

Like many others have said, we need a structure in place that supports succession and progression in team management.

 

[ekke287]

The problem is the COH approach for modernisation was generally backed by fans but failed in its execution. I suspect AI / data may have had a hand in Selles recruitment (as it should alongside other metrics) and they seem to be desperate to prove it works.

However, whilst being innovative and thought leaders should never be dampened, the reality is that the club is not an experiment to trial these ideas.

Look at the Bulgarian signings, there’s a part to play in the infrastructure of the wider club but in reality if a future star player could be identified by the right ChatGPT prompt (for example) then every club would be doing it.

Selles was the wrong appointment so we’re backtracking. The early signings didn’t help, so we panic bought on deadline day. They’ve now panicked and reverted to Wilder, and while I don’t want him back, he is the safest pair of hands right now.

What we now need to do as fans is unite and back the team, and accept that our owners are tech, not football, people. Whilst they may experiment, we can also expect they will be quick learners to what works and what doesn’t.

To the owners, experimentation for positive change is fine, just assess the risk to the performance of the teams before conducting.

 

[JohnDenver]

It’s basically why the decision to make a radical change at the club was so egregiously stupid.

Amen.

A change both radical and half arsed. Quite the combo.

 

[KMC-1889]

It would be refreshing for him to show some humility from the start.

Admit that we fucked up spectacularly at the back end of last season ( even taking into account Burnley and Leeds’ form)

Admit that we were negative for large parts of last season.

Admit that he got it wrong in the second half / last 20 mins of the play off final and even further got it wrong at the end of the match when he disappeared down then tunnel straightaway.

Might go some way to bringing some of the nay sayers on board and install a bit more unity amongst the fans.

Like many others have said, we need a structure in place that supports succession and progression in team management.

None of this will happen. If anything he’ll be re-energised that ‘his’ way was right.

He’s somehow going to be even more unbearable than his last return. Can’t wait for his 15 minute rant after the next derby.

 

[BlairBlade]

…..so they do visit this forum.

I hope to God they don’t.

Surely the owners and all the players are warned not to come anywhere near this site otherwise they would have to use their very deep pockets to pay for much needed therapy.

 

[BlairBlade]

I think you've misread the room buddy.

Think you'll find the analogy is correct but you've got it arse about it.

It's Wilder who's throwing out the demands. Reject my transfers? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. Tell me I can't use international breaks to go play golf on the Algarve? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. Question my antics in the Banner? I'll walk and you can recruit another Selles. In fact COH, you're going to have to give me exactly what I want, otherwise you'll be back wondering whether Selles or Danny Rohl is the better option....

Much I usually like your posts I hope you are wrong on this one.

IF CoH are going cap in hand to Wilder then what you suggest might be the case.

I hope it is not as, notwithstanding the poor position we are in and the uphill struggle we face, Wilder needs to show some humility and suggest he is coming back with the best of intentions and not to lord it over the owners, the club or anyone else.

He should not be given, nor is he entitled to, carte blanche. He is an employee and if he thinks and behaves as if he is someone much more than that I hope he doesn’t come back.

 

[ATL Recs]

My only thought was they, the owners decided in the summer that Wilder wasn't the man they wanted. Why? - we don't know. It wasn't an instant decision and there were clearly meetings between the owners and Wilder. My issue is what has changed? And don't come back at me and say we have lost 6 games and Selles was out of his depth. That just means we need a new manager but why Wilder?

Costs less maybe ?

 

[Danetheblade]

It's not because Chrissy is one of our own or he gets the club at all. They're just bonuses. It's because he's actually a very good football manager. I just can't fathom why some of our fanbase can't see this as the only thing that matters because within our limitations as a football club in terms of size, the league we're in and current position I don't see a better manager than Wilder who we could get. He also knows many of the players and succeeded with them last season. But no, let's get Michael Carrick or why can't we get Sean Dyche. Probably because he knows he's got a great chance if a OK club. Then you've got some fans who dont want Dyche because his football is defensive! Deary me, that's the one thing we need sorting more than anything else.

So you can make out that it's fans saying none of that foreign muck but it's far more because Wilder has a very good record as a manager, end of.

How’d you know that we could attain a better manager though? Without actually putting the job out there, it’s impossible to say the best we can get is Wilder.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

A lot of what I'm about to say has probably been picked up in other threads, but I don't know that there's one that really captures it all.
Ruben Selles has clearly been a disastrous appointment. I think it was well-intentioned, with an eye to the future, but one that hasn't worked out. Whilst Selles himself was probably out of his depth, o Jo his appointment was only one part of a series of changes that needed to be made, in relation to overall strategy, management and coaching structure, recruitment etc. That none of the other changes happened, probably meant that, whomever the coach was, they'd have struggled, to a greater or lesser degree. I was a supporter of moving on from Wilder; as was said on the late, lamented Bladespod, the new approach had a higher ceiling, but also perhaps a lower floor. Sadly, it's the latter of those two predictions which has come to pass. Doesn't necessarily mean that the vision was wrong; however, clearly, the strategy and execution underpinning it was deeply flawed.

So, Selles' position became untenable and he was dismissed. But is going back to Wilder really the best we can do? I have mixed feelings on this. I think that it's unquestionably the safest thing we can do. He's only been out of the building for five minutes, so will be able to pick up where he left off. He does seem to be able to inspire a team (though interestingly, it only seems to work with United, as his other body of work is underwhelming), and I think that the threat of relegation is eliminated by his return.

But...
Really? Wilder? Is he really the best possible option for the club? Is there really no way to move on? People wax lyrical about how he "gets" the club, how he's "one of our own" and all that tosh, when none of that seems to matter when we're talking about professional players, paid to do a job to the best of their ability. What does it even mean, to "get" the club? What makes SUFC apparently uniquely ungettable by other managers, coaches or owners? I'm genuinely curious. I understand that Wilder has a special place in the club's history, and that he's been canonised by an appreciable proportion of the fanbase. But, sooner or later, for one reason or another, he'll have to move on. What then? I've seen, in these threads, Billy Sharp and Chris Basham cited as possible replacements. Again: really? Is Bladey-bladeness in a coach all we can reasonably aspire to? These are club legends - but with zero coaching experience. On paper at least, Selles would be a better hire!

Like I said, I think Wilder will get us out of this mess. But as fans of a club that will endure long after Wilder, we should be looking for evidence of the next step and the one after that. We need a club and a process that is not in thrall to one man. Everyone cites Brighton as the model for a well run club. Their managers and players are regularly picked off... and it doesn't matter, because they have underlying strategy and clarity of purpose. I very much hope that one thing that comes out of this debacle is that a deeply experienced football director (not CW! That would have echoes of Putin oscillating between president and PM) is appointed, who will figure out what we want to be, what we need to get there - and then start working through it.

A drowning man doesn’t really care who ultimately pulls him out of the water.

 

[Greg.]

I think they are probably wary of putting someone else in and it continues to not work, which would be an awful look and waste of money.

Chris will probably be ok at least in maybe moving towards playoff zone (I would hope). COH probably aware that the average fan will like the appointment based on polls and presumably the dressing room will too (seemed like certain players never really played for Selles).

 

[PrestwichBlade]

None of this will happen. If anything he’ll be re-energised that ‘his’ way was right.

He’s somehow going to be even more unbearable than his last return. Can’t wait for his 15 minute rant after the next derby.

Only 15 minutes? It was about an hour wasn't it?!

 

[William Large]

None of this will happen. If anything he’ll be re-energised that ‘his’ way was right.

He’s somehow going to be even more unbearable than his last return. Can’t wait for his 15 minute rant after the next derby.

If we win the next derby, I won’t give a monkeys. I get he’s not everyone’s cup of tea. If I felt that strongly then I wouldn’t watch / listen to him.

 

[Pandev]

I think John Mousinho would be the perfect ‘next step’ for us.

He’s a modern manager who has done amazing with Pompey. However I don’t think he’s a complete change of philosophy / style like Selles type.

 

[Blacksea]

Brilliant post. Completely agree.

I’m happy Wilder is back as I love him however we need to move on. Every time we struggle we can’t just go back to him. Is the new plan to keep Wilder forever?

I wasn’t happy when he was sacked but I was happy to see the club move forward with a modern approach.

This is clearly a quick fix from the owners. The speed it’s been done at makes me think there has been no attempt to find other candidates / interviews.

Is it not embarrassing the only job for wilder is here and the only manager we can be successful with is Wilder?

How many goes will the owners need until they get a suitable manager that's not Wilder?
Enough to see us in L2 before it happens?

 

[Addison]

It seems the Board couldn't even make their mind up as to whether they wanted CW back or not. So its doubtful they would achieve any agreement on a replacement. Its a panic move. They have made a complete mess of running the Club this season so far. Recruitment was shambolic and Selles was hung out to dry. That doesn't disguise the fact he was completely out of his depth which calls into question the Boards judgement in the first place.

Its astonishing they've spent upwards of £100 million and never thought to overhaul an out of date off field model. They are now reaping the chaos caused by that failure to implement change. There are numerous sports consultancy firms out there that could have come in and done a thorough review of the operation, provided advice and implemented changes. There are rumours they are looking for advice but for what purpose? They are supposed to be successful business men yet they seem incapable of effecting change. The only credit the have in the bank is they made a quick decision to dispense with RS. They seem content to let it drift along on the back of a fag packet approach to recruitment under the guise of A1. None of this has ever been explained or put into the public domain to enable it to be questioned.

Now they expect CW to come in and wave a magic wand and all problems will be solved. They won't be. If they revert back to a single manager in control of the whole of the football operation it will fail again imo without a football man on the Board. After the last 6 games I want CW to succeed but the lack of direction from above will only serve to hinder his attempts to turn it around.

 

[Blacksea]

Who was co ordinating the dogs dinner of recruitment all the way through the window?
People were saying we had a great end to the window,but for me almost every signing is a gamble of one sort or another,that includes the manager they chose to replace the one they fired,which they have had to do a 360 on.
Which realistic manager available and willing to come would be capable of getting their heads around what was brought in to marry up with the dropped lips of the ones already there,and get some sort of team spirit going.
If Wilder was not available I dread to think of who the next manager they would have got in to do all that and expect not being in a relegation fight for the remainder of the season