Ground Expansion....why?

[NN6]

Living outside of Sheffield I wonder whether anyone has heard McCabe give a rational reason for the proposed (and council approved) plans to increase the ground capacity to 44,000 and the costs involved?

Given we won't sell out one game this season and look unlikely to break the 30,000 barrier why oh why do we need to spend on the ground? Its clear there are no funds available given the player sales and wage bill reduction so why waste millions increasing capacity?

If its got anything to do with the World Cup bid then it is plain madness as the chances England get it are minimal with the obvious opposition of Jack Warner and even if we do there is still only a slim chance that Sheffield are awarded games. If we are then its 50/50 with the pigs and if its us it'll probably be Costa Rica v Romania!!

So Mr McCabe why?

 

[puppet]

Living outside of Sheffield I wonder whether anyone has heard McCabe give a rational reason for the proposed (and council approved) plans to increase the ground capacity to 44,000 and the costs involved?

Given we won't sell out one game this season and look unlikely to break the 30,000 barrier why oh why do we need to spend on the ground? Its clear there are no funds available given the player sales and wage bill reduction so why waste millions increasing capacity?

If its got anything to do with the World Cup bid then it is plain madness as the chances England get it are minimal with the obvious opposition of Jack Warner and even if we do there is still only a slim chance that Sheffield are awarded games. If we are then its 50/50 with the pigs and if its us it'll probably be Costa Rica v Romania!!

So Mr McCabe why?

Anyone who missed it should listen to FH on iplayer, interview with McCabe about 630, the final flannel answer in particular made me grind my teeth with rage

 

[alcoblade]

Anyone who missed it should listen to FH on iplayer, interview with McCabe about 630, the final flannel answer in particular made me grind my teeth with rage

save us the bother would you pup and summarise?

UTB

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I wouldn't be too sure about Jack Warner he's as corrupt as they come and changes his stance on England every other week.

 

[puppet]

save us the bother would you pup and summarise?

UTB

tbh most of it was typical mccabe drawl, its the way he dodges the question about funding ground developments when we cant put out a fully fit team that has to ne heard to be believed, i missed some of it too i didnt realise, i shall have a listen myself and maybe report back if i havent headbutted my desk too hard

UTB

 

[Highbury_Blade]

tbh most of it was typical mccabe drawl, its the way he dodges the question about funding ground developments when we cant put out a fully fit team that has to ne heard to be believed, i missed some of it too i didnt realise, i shall have a listen myself and maybe report back if i havent headbutted my desk too hard

UTB

When questioned about why we're putting money into the ground and not the team, answered along the lines of "if we conducted the running of the club in the way you've described it, you'd be looking at the bramall lane of ten years ago. Everyone who comes to the club is impressed by the stadium and we will continue to invest."



The interview finished directly after that, and the question of whether he thinks we'll fill a 44,000 stadium wasn't answered.

Should add that the interview was taped, so Seth may have asked it, but not broadcasted it.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/p004xyy1

40mins

 

[puppet]

When questioned about why we're putting money into the ground and not the team, answered along the lines of "if we conducted the running of the club in the way you've described it, you'd be looking at the bramall lane of ten years ago. Everyone who comes to the club is impressed by the stadium and we will continue to invest."



The interview finished directly after that, and the question of whether he thinks we'll fill a 44,000 stadium wasn't answered.

Should add that the interview was taped, so Seth may have asked it, but not broadcasted it.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/p004xyy1

40mins

he also stated that the only real team change the other night was killa at LB, 'where hes played many times for us AND leeds'.. having previously bleated about the team being decimated by injuries... he didnt actually answer why we havent strengthened

 

[Melbourne Blade]

Although I work in banking, i'm no expert, however I'd have assumed the financing of ground redevelopments ('assets') is an entirely different type of financing for buying players.

It's a no brainer really, if he's happy to stump up some cash and secure us a 1st class ground with the potential to not just attract internationals and be considered as a world cup stadium, but also to invest in our medium to long term future. Who knows where it'll lie - just because we're mid table now doesn't mean we won't be in the premier league in 1, 2 or 5 years!?

Ground redevelopments are for the longer terms. Buying expensive players are for the short term and in no way guarantee you promotion or success in the premier league.

 

[Santos]

Living outside of Sheffield I wonder whether anyone has heard McCabe give a rational reason for the proposed (and council approved) plans to increase the ground capacity to 44,000 and the costs involved?

Given we won't sell out one game this season and look unlikely to break the 30,000 barrier why oh why do we need to spend on the ground? Its clear there are no funds available given the player sales and wage bill reduction so why waste millions increasing capacity?

If its got anything to do with the World Cup bid then it is plain madness as the chances England get it are minimal with the obvious opposition of Jack Warner and even if we do there is still only a slim chance that Sheffield are awarded games. If we are then its 50/50 with the pigs and if its us it'll probably be Costa Rica v Romania!!

So Mr McCabe why?

I've been thinking of logical reasons of doing it and I'm none the wiser. If we were a mid-table Premiership team which I think McCabe has admitted is the very height of our ambitions we'd never come close to averaging 44,000. I think we'd maybe get 38,000 if we were sustained there which in light of other Premiership crowds is damn good I think.

I agree with your view on the World Cup too, so much has got to happen for us to get some poxy World Cup game (then what after that!!!). I think England could well win it but then I can't see Sheffield being picked.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

I've been thinking of logical reasons of doing it and I'm none the wiser.

Mrs Disorderly and I got planning permission on an extension at Disorderly Manor some time ago, however the chances of it being built in the next year or two are zero. Its created a precident for when the economy starts to come good again etc etc, and we can do what we really wanted.

I cant see why its such a difficult concept to imagine that you get planning permission, then build when you are ready, if you are ever ready. Getting planning permission does not compel you to build. Therefore for the club to get planning permission on the developments that would allow us to be a venue for 2018, (if, and if, and if...) is little more than that. It means that we comply with the criteria to be a venue. Thats all.

Or, think about if you buy some land and its worth £1,000. Get planning permission on it and its worth £50,000. Life is often about possibilities not absolutes. However if there is another million profit a year to be had out of developing the conference, office and apartment business, then it may happen regardless of what is happening on the field. I dont believe that a bigger stadium and onfield sucess are that closely linked.

Also consider if KMcC is planning to sell up as there seems to be growing rumours. One of the attractions for a potential buyer is the property. Dont kid yourselves that there are a stream of people desperate to buy a second division provincial football club, because there aren't. Wednesday have other problems in share ownership, but they are getting less success in attracting a potential partner than an ugly kid in a disco. A profitable international property business with a strong football team 'brand'? Now thats a different proposition altogether.

If we are courting that kind of buyer, it does make me worried about how 'football' we are going to stay. Things haven't been the same since the sad passing of Derek Dooley and the continual problem that it has thrown up, that we have no real footballing presence on the board. Still, it will come to pass, whatever we think. We have to trust KMcC to stay true to being a supporter.

Keep the faith, UTB...

 

[beightonblade]

Its a a bit like buying a Maserati when yer can't drive or can't afford the petrol.

Nice to look at but useless.

 

[Micalijo]

Mrs Disorderly and I got planning permission on an extension at Disorderly Manor some time ago, however the chances of it being built in the next year or two are zero. Its created a precident for when the economy starts to come good again etc etc, and we can do what we really wanted.

I cant see why its such a difficult concept to imagine that you get planning permission, then build when you are ready, if you are ever ready. Getting planning permission does not compel you to build. Therefore for the club to get planning permission on the developments that would allow us to be a venue for 2018, (if, and if, and if...) is little more than that. It means that we comply with the criteria to be a venue. Thats all.

Or, think about if you buy some land and its worth £1,000. Get planning permission on it and its worth £50,000. Life is often about possibilities not absolutes. However if there is another million profit a year to be had out of developing the conference, office and apartment business, then it may happen regardless of what is happening on the field. I dont believe that a bigger stadium and onfield sucess are that closely linked.

Also consider if KMcC is planning to sell up as there seems to be growing rumours. One of the attractions for a potential buyer is the property. Dont kid yourselves that there are a stream of people desperate to buy a second division provincial football club, because there aren't. Wednesday have other problems in share ownership, but they are getting less success in attracting a potential partner than an ugly kid in a disco. A profitable international property business with a strong football team 'brand'? Now thats a different proposition altogether.

If we are courting that kind of buyer, it does make me worried about how 'football' we are going to stay. Things haven't been the same since the sad passing of Derek Dooley and the continual problem that it has thrown up, that we have no real footballing presence on the board. Still, it will come to pass, whatever we think. We have to trust KMcC to stay true to being a supporter.

Keep the faith, UTB...

This has come as a huge shock to me but Duncs has actually posted somat meaningful and interesting, over and above the usual 'stick with him lads, we will be OK' line!!!

Could not agree more Duncs. People seem to think that the diggers will be moving in next week. McCabe is keeping his options open and this saves any new owner the hassle of doing it, if he he or she fancies a World Cup game or a serious go at getting to Prem and staying there.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Its a a bit like buying a Maserati when yer can't drive or can't afford the petrol.

Nice to look at but useless.

Not really, no ones ever bought a house because there is a Maserati outside. Plus property, in this case our stadium, is a huge attraction and is an investment which invests in the club long term rather than short term buying players.
You could say it is actually the actions of a true fan to ensure the club is here long term and in a position to compete with anyone.
A first class ground which doesn't require further development in the short term which generate millions through the enterprise centres and attracting other events is hardly nice to look at but useless. It's making money, lots of money and the further development will only increase this figure.

The argument is that money is going into the ground development rather than the first team squad. That has been countered with the long term investment comment. You might not agree but it does make sense, if I were in charge I wouldn't invest my personal wealth in playing staff it would be putting my money into what would be for the benefit of my team long term. I'd make the football side have to run itself to its own budget. Basically spend what the club makes itself without being helped out. Some would disagree and say he should put it into playing staff, he disagrees.

You make the Maserati analogy I would say it is more like a father who gives his kids the best environment to make there own way. Good stable home environment , good education, and let them make their own way in the world.
The other side of the coin is to bank roll them throughout their younger lives and then hope they appreciate it in the likelihood that he will be bailing them out for the rest of his life. At which time they are on their own.
The downside is that at 17 the kids can't have Vayron that he wants that his dad can easily afford. He can't run up massive debts at Uni on clothes and socialising although again his again can easily right off the full amount.
For me that is where we are and again in my opinion McCabe is making the short term harder choices, risking the spoilt tantrums (in our case from the fans asking why he isn't putting his own money in), for the long term benefits of a well rounded, self sufficient entity.

 

[beightonblade]

Not really, no ones ever bought a house because there is a Maserati outside. Plus property, in this case our stadium, is a huge attraction and is an investment which invests in the club long term rather than short term buying players.
You could say it is actually the actions of a true fan to ensure the club is here long term and in a position to compete with anyone.
A first class ground which doesn't require further development in the short term which generate millions through the enterprise centres and attracting other events is hardly nice to look at but useless. It's making money, lots of money and the further development will only increase this figure.

The argument is that money is going into the ground development rather than the first team squad. That has been countered with the long term investment comment. You might not agree but it does make sense, if I were in charge I wouldn't invest my personal wealth in playing staff it would be putting my money into what would be for the benefit of my team long term. I'd make the football side have to run itself to its own budget. Basically spend what the club makes itself without being helped out. Some would disagree and say he should put it into playing staff, he disagrees.

You make the Maserati analogy I would say it is more like a father who gives his kids the best environment to make there own way. Good stable home environment , good education, and let them make their own way in the world.
The other side of the coin is to bank roll them throughout their younger lives and then hope they appreciate it in the likelihood that he will be bailing them out for the rest of his life. At which time they are on their own.

mmmmmmmmmm..............................
perhaps McCabe shud retain the freehold of BDTBL and any other property assets the Blades have and find sum mug err.... sorry investor to invest in the
playing side of things !

Yer know.....have yer cake an eat it !

It really is time for him to go.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Of course it is, even though we already know he doesn't own the freehold.

FFS

 

[Micalijo]

Not really, no ones ever bought a house because there is a Maserati outside. Plus property, in this case our stadium, is a huge attraction and is an investment which invests in the club long term rather than short term buying players.
You could say it is actually the actions of a true fan to ensure the club is here long term and in a position to compete with anyone.
A first class ground which doesn't require further development in the short term which generate millions through the enterprise centres and attracting other events is hardly nice to look at but useless. It's making money, lots of money and the further development will only increase this figure.

The argument is that money is going into the ground development rather than the first team squad. That has been countered with the long term investment comment. You might not agree but it does make sense, if I were in charge I wouldn't invest my personal wealth in playing staff it would be putting my money into what would be for the benefit of my team long term. I'd make the football side have to run itself to its own budget. Basically spend what the club makes itself without being helped out. Some would disagree and say he should put it into playing staff, he disagrees.

You make the Maserati analogy I would say it is more like a father who gives his kids the best environment to make there own way. Good stable home environment , good education, and let them make their own way in the world.
The other side of the coin is to bank roll them throughout their younger lives and then hope they appreciate it in the likelihood that he will be bailing them out for the rest of his life. At which time they are on their own.
The downside is that at 17 the kids can't have Vayron that he wants that his dad can easily afford. He can't run up massive debts at Uni on clothes and socialising although again his again can easily right off the full amount.
For me that is where we are and again in my opinion McCabe is making the short term harder choices, risking the spoilt tantrums (in our case from the fans asking why he isn't putting his own money in), for the long term benefits of a well rounded, self sufficient entity.

Good post Bob, but can you explain to me how the Enterprise Centre makes 'millions'? I am certain that it does not make millions and instead I'll be surprised if it covers costs of interest on borrowings to build. Have you got details of the accounts? OK the asset may appreciate in value but I doubt in this climate

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

It a long term thing Micalijo, property is liable to fluctuate under economic downturns however the long term trend is generally up.

I can't remember the exact figures (I'm sure Dunc has posted them previously) but I thought the exsisting Enterprise Centre generated something in the region of £1.1 Million turnover and I think a £6 Million profit since it's inception.

Open to be corrected if someone has different figures.

 

[Worksop II]

Whenever McCabe says owt, about money available for Players, or Money being injected for Investment, I cant get past the £7 million going out in the next 2 years to his kids company.

 

[beightonblade]

Of course it is, even though we already know he doesn't own the freehold.

FFS

Thats news to me !
Have yer checked the Land Registry?

 

[beightonblade]

It a long term thing Micalijo, property is liable to fluctuate under economic downturns however the long term trend is generally up.

mmmmmmmmmmmm.................................. yes i agree.
but i support the Blades who are supposed to be a football club,if it were property supporting i were interested in there are better portfollio's than McCabes to support.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Another enterprise centre, plus banqueting these facilities are going to generate more money for the football club. As I said long term planing but we are already seeing the inital rewards for what McCabe put in place at the start with the original Enterprise Centre and ground development. We have higher crowds, better facilities and we have £6 Million that we wouldn't of had without this, with more to come.

 

[Micalijo]

It a long term thing Micalijo, property is liable to fluctuate under economic downturns however the long term trend is generally up.

I can't remember the exact figures (I'm sure Dunc has posted them previously) but I thought the exsisting Enterprise Centre generated something in the region of £1.1 Million turnover and I think a £6 Million profit since it's inception.

Open to be corrected if someone has different figures.

Totally agree that property is a sound investment etc and I can totally understand why McCabe would think it a good idea to build a new office block behind the Kop or wherever it is.

Like you say, if someone has up to date figures then great but I used to have close knowledge of the accounts of the subsidiary company that ran the Enterprise centre (we are talking 7-8 years ago and it didn't make 600k profit per annum which is roughly what is being put forward (when was it built? - 10 years ago). It has to be impossible to make 600k profit on a turnover of £1.1m doesn't it? I certainly have never seen a profit % anywhere near that - (unfortunately other than a mate who does ambulance chasing perhaps!)

I know there are very few people like me sad enough to go on about these things but I really would love to know because I do think people are misguided if they think the enterprise centre is a licence to print money and can cushion loads of problems we have elsewhere.

 

[Micalijo]

Whenever McCabe says owt, about money available for Players, or Money being injected for Investment, I cant get past the £7 million going out in the next 2 years to his kids company.

100% spot on.

This needs mentioning alot more - I don't think the press have got this yet or if they have are too scared/thick to ask about it. The only thing in his favour is he is perfectly entitled to do it and the argument that it makes life easier for a takeover is true. Very little chance of investment in the team from elsewhere if McCabe wants his fill first.

 

[Micalijo]

Another enterprise centre, plus banqueting these facilities are going to generate more money for the football club. As I said long term planing but we are already seeing the inital rewards for what McCabe put in place at the start with the original Enterprise Centre and ground development. We have higher crowds, better facilities and we have £6 Million that we wouldn't of had without this, with more to come.

The thing is though Bob, we are in no better position really than in the early part of the decade. I'm always reminiscing with the mates and for example the team that won at Hillsbro when D'Jaffo scored cropped up and although it was obviously not the greatest on paper I think it looked OK, very solid and reflected what the manager was trying to do at the time givne the resources. The current set-up is so disjointed as to be laughable. I know Warnock would sign anybody and anyone but he had to do that to a certain degree. KB has had so many chances to spend big in CCC terms and we are getting worse, rapidly.

It is hard to envisage things getting better on field at the moment. Yes the ground is fantastic and everyone is impressed and no doubt people are attracted to come along.

But people would also be attracted by a vibrant young and athletic side playing what I call a modern style of football - ie with 2 midfielders who can pass and move and dictate play. I'll watch United in whatever league so success isn't the be all and end all. Yes we under-achieve but I want a club to be proud of and players to watch - not a nice stand to sit in and an office block. Plenty of clubs have decent facilities now - we are nowt special in my opinion in that regard.

 

[Worksop II]

100% spot on.

This needs mentioning alot more - I don't think the press have got this yet or if they have are too scared/thick to ask about it. The only thing in his favour is he is perfectly entitled to do it and the argument that it makes life easier for a takeover is true. Very little chance of investment in the team from elsewhere if McCabe wants his fill first.

I havn`t got a problem with McCabe doing this, or bankrolling his kids, its his money and club.

It just makes the whole "investment / ambition" thing, a bit harder to understand

 

[Come from away]

I love the ease with which we can spend somebody else's money and add our own twisted motivations. We have a sound club financially and enough quality on the field (once we can get more than seven players to training) to do well in this league. The problem at the club is not one of finances or investment it is plain and simply the performance on the field. If we get the players back (and fully fit) and still don't perform then I will be truly worried but right now I think we just have to accept what is and build on these improved performances.

 

[beightonblade]

we have a sound club ! made me chuckle that bit.

a squad as thin as paper, very little quality and a manager who's clueless.

sound as a pound ! ........... yep the £ has lost about 40% value to the euro over the last 12months or so.

 

[alcoblade]

Another enterprise centre, plus banqueting these facilities are going to generate more money for the football club. As I said long term planing but we are already seeing the inital rewards for what McCabe put in place at the start with the original Enterprise Centre and ground development. We have higher crowds, better facilities and we have £6 Million that we wouldn't of had without this, with more to come.

but when we built the enterprise center, we built the enterprise center with the hope it would pay for itself and a bit more. I'm all for it. Does another enterprise center pay for itself and the biggest (half empty) kop in England, too? I very much doubt it.

Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that because previous developments have generated income, every development generates income. They have to pay for themselves, and all the bells and whistles that are attached. The bells and whistles we're planning to attach are enormous and I'm not convinced in the maths.

Many will say that McCabe's done the numbers. I would too until recently. But I'm starting to believe that he sees his legacy as solely infrastructure. And though he may have pumped n the money to build this, it seems he's (rightly) taking it back out again. So my concern is the albatross that we're building, and which neck it's wrapped around. It's been sold on the premise that we're an established premiership club and as part of a world cup bid. Now they can't both go together in time. The "established premiership club" line seems to have gone quiet, but if it was a prerequisite financially before, why isn't it now?

UTB

 

[DuncDisorderly]

This has come as a huge shock to me but Duncs has actually posted somat meaningful and interesting, over and above the usual 'stick with him lads, we will be OK' line!!!.

Praise indeed from you fella, but if you think thats what I normally say, then you aren't reading it carefully enough...

 

[lenners]

Does anyone know if we're going to get an annual report this year or a shareholders meeting?