Ground Expansion....why?

[NN6]

'the established premiership club' seems to have gone a bit quiet....mmmm....what about the 'Europe in 5 years bit'!!??

right, the last set of accounts stated this 'the Blades Enterprise centre for the year generated £0.96m in turnover with profits of £0.4m. ' no comment on how all the costs including interest are allocated but the enterprise centre is making money.

However there are some other interesting 'facts' from those accounts and this to be honest is what worries me...... Football bank debt is under £3m. the rest of the debt is related to non football revenue generating activities including £11.8m in the hotel. this was financed by a £13.5m overdraft from HBOS.

so all you guys who are happy to see us investing in non football related activities will also be comforted to know that over 80% of the debt related to Sheffield United is down to the hotel. I suggest we all start visiting said hotel sharpish

to summarise Sheffield United is a property company with a small footballing subsidiary. so its not surprising how the company is being run...football is a 'side business' with the real action in the property arena. to be fair that property side of the business appears to have been making money and you might argue that without it the football side would be in worse straights. however be under no illusions business decisions going forward will be more 'property weighted' than 'football weighted'.

 

[beightonblade]

Don't want to piss on the chips..............................
but i'm sure McCabe has stiched Copthorne up sumwhere along the line so the hotel don't worry me.

i might be wrong.

 

[Micalijo]

Interesting stuff NN6. Can you clarify for me please what you mean about the interest costs being allocated? Are you saying the £0.4 includes interest costs but it doesn't say how much?

I think the £3m football debt is the key thing and McCabe takes huge credit for that. That is a massive advantage in terms of McCabe trying to flog the club. Obviously alot of water has gone under bridge since then so we'll have to see what the latest is - if we get to see any detailed accounts.

I haven't got a clue what the hotel bricks and mortar is worth but the overdraft on that is pretty secure I imagine. I imagine the fee we get from Copthorne nearly covers the interest. If Copthorne pull out due to lack of use then we are in deep trouble. Wonder how long they are tied in?

 

[Jon Bon]

Mrs Disorderly and I got planning permission on an extension at Disorderly Manor some time ago, however the chances of it being built in the next year or two are zero. Its created a precident for when the economy starts to come good again etc etc, and we can do what we really wanted.

I cant see why its such a difficult concept to imagine that you get planning permission, then build when you are ready, if you are ever ready. Getting planning permission does not compel you to build. Therefore for the club to get planning permission on the developments that would allow us to be a venue for 2018, (if, and if, and if...) is little more than that. It means that we comply with the criteria to be a venue. Thats all.

You're only allowed 5 years to implement development from the date of the decision, so keep your eye on the clock Duncs and don't forget to dig a little bit of the footings...

By the way, United only applied for 'outline' planning permission, which means that they can be a bit more flexible with the final design should they wish to be and it only cost around £3k for the app, compared to the pig's 'full' application which cost over £30k!

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Don't want to piss on the chips..............................
but i'm sure McCabe has stiched Copthorne up sumwhere along the line so the hotel don't worry me.

i might be wrong.

You're not wrong. As I understand, by the time Copthorne can end their agreement, the hotel will be paid for and they still won't own it. Call him what you like but he's a sharp cookie is our Kev...

 

[Muttley]

mmmm....what about the 'Europe in 5 years bit'!!??



That's why we bought Ferencvaros. We will be relocating to Hungary, and therefore will be in Europe in 5 years.

 

[Santos]

Mrs Disorderly and I got planning permission on an extension at Disorderly Manor some time ago, however the chances of it being built in the next year or two are zero. Its created a precident for when the economy starts to come good again etc etc, and we can do what we really wanted.

I cant see why its such a difficult concept to imagine that you get planning permission, then build when you are ready, if you are ever ready. Getting planning permission does not compel you to build. Therefore for the club to get planning permission on the developments that would allow us to be a venue for 2018, (if, and if, and if...) is little more than that. It means that we comply with the criteria to be a venue. Thats all.

Or, think about if you buy some land and its worth £1,000. Get planning permission on it and its worth £50,000. Life is often about possibilities not absolutes. However if there is another million profit a year to be had out of developing the conference, office and apartment business, then it may happen regardless of what is happening on the field. I dont believe that a bigger stadium and onfield sucess are that closely linked.

Also consider if KMcC is planning to sell up as there seems to be growing rumours. One of the attractions for a potential buyer is the property. Dont kid yourselves that there are a stream of people desperate to buy a second division provincial football club, because there aren't. Wednesday have other problems in share ownership, but they are getting less success in attracting a potential partner than an ugly kid in a disco. A profitable international property business with a strong football team 'brand'? Now thats a different proposition altogether.

If we are courting that kind of buyer, it does make me worried about how 'football' we are going to stay. Things haven't been the same since the sad passing of Derek Dooley and the continual problem that it has thrown up, that we have no real footballing presence on the board. Still, it will come to pass, whatever we think. We have to trust KMcC to stay true to being a supporter.

Keep the faith, UTB...

Good post Duncan and it is perhaps my fault for not understanding properly buit I assumed that

1. If we were 'there or there abouts' in January we'd build the Kop
2. If we were chosen for the World Cup we'd build the South Stand
3. Therefore if we pick up before Xmas and win the world cup bid we could have 22,000 rattling around in a 44,000 seater stadium!!

 

[oldblade]

Living outside of Sheffield I wonder whether anyone has heard McCabe give a rational reason for the proposed (and council approved) plans to increase the ground capacity to 44,000 and the costs involved?

Given we won't sell out one game this season and look unlikely to break the 30,000 barrier why oh why do we need to spend on the ground? Its clear there are no funds available given the player sales and wage bill reduction so why waste millions increasing capacity?

If its got anything to do with the World Cup bid then it is plain madness as the chances England get it are minimal with the obvious opposition of Jack Warner and even if we do there is still only a slim chance that Sheffield are awarded games. If we are then its 50/50 with the pigs and if its us it'll probably be Costa Rica v Romania!!

So Mr McCabe why?

Having a ground that compares favourably with other grounds should not be underetimated in the effect it can have in attracting players.

When he signed for us in 1988 Brian Deane was reported to have said as he walked around the stadium something along the lines of Bramall Lane feeling like the big time. Now, 21 years ago Bramall Lane was not the stadium it is now, but at the time it still compared favourably with most other stadia.

Although I have to say I am a bit concerned at increasing the capacity. Our current capacity is about right. For the forseeable future I cannot see many times when we will need more than 32,500 seats. I would rather have a mid sized ground that is two thirds or three quarters full, then a large ground that is less than half full. I think this is something that hasn't helped Wednesday in recent times.

 

[Bramley]

Mrs Disorderly and I got planning permission on an extension at Disorderly Manor some time ago, however the chances of it being built in the next year or two are zero. Its created a precident for when the economy starts to come good again etc etc, and we can do what we really wanted.

I cant see why its such a difficult concept to imagine that you get planning permission, then build when you are ready, if you are ever ready. Getting planning permission does not compel you to build. Therefore for the club to get planning permission on the developments that would allow us to be a venue for 2018, (if, and if, and if...) is little more than that. It means that we comply with the criteria to be a venue. Thats all.

Or, think about if you buy some land and its worth £1,000. Get planning permission on it and its worth £50,000. Life is often about possibilities not absolutes. However if there is another million profit a year to be had out of developing the conference, office and apartment business, then it may happen regardless of what is happening on the field. I dont believe that a bigger stadium and onfield sucess are that closely linked.

Also consider if KMcC is planning to sell up as there seems to be growing rumours. One of the attractions for a potential buyer is the property. Dont kid yourselves that there are a stream of people desperate to buy a second division provincial football club, because there aren't. Wednesday have other problems in share ownership, but they are getting less success in attracting a potential partner than an ugly kid in a disco. A profitable international property business with a strong football team 'brand'? Now thats a different proposition altogether.

If we are courting that kind of buyer, it does make me worried about how 'football' we are going to stay. Things haven't been the same since the sad passing of Derek Dooley and the continual problem that it has thrown up, that we have no real footballing presence on the board. Still, it will come to pass, whatever we think. We have to trust KMcC to stay true to being a supporter.

Keep the faith, UTB...

Get the Planning Permission in place for nominal cost then if we're in the position in a few years we have that option. People are using this as a stick to beat SUFC with. The last time I heard Plymouth wanted to be a World Cup city, Milton Keynes as well. There's no downside in having some future plans in place as it also adds value to any would be investor.

 

[Bramley]

You're not wrong. As I understand, by the time Copthorne can end their agreement, the hotel will be paid for and they still won't own it. Call him what you like but he's a sharp cookie is our Kev...

I'd imagine the Copthorne has been an absolute disaster and will be about as profitable as a Chocolate Teapot Shop. I just hoping we're not covering what I envisage are huge losses.

 

[alcoblade]

Having a ground that compares favourably with other grounds should not be underetimated in the effect it can have in attracting players.

When he signed for us in 1988 Brian Deane was reported to have said as he walked around the stadium something along the lines of Bramall Lane feeling like the big time. Now, 21 years ago Bramall lane was not the stadium it is now, but at the time it still compared favourably with most other stadia.

fair point, but BDTBL is now far superior to the level of signings that United will be looking for in the forseable future.

I think a case could be made for the Kop because it's the one sub standard stand and will need replacing some time "soon". I think the South stand (or more to the point the huge debt it would carry) is just a step too far.

UTB

 

[lenners]

Get the Planning Permission in place for nominal cost then if we're in the position in a few years we have that option. People are using this as a stick to beat SUFC with. The last time I heard Plymouth wanted to be a World Cup city, Milton Keynes as well. There's no downside in having some future plans in place as it also adds value to any would be investor.

Unfortunately there's a major downside as every time McCabe opens his mouth on ground improvements at the same time as we head towards League One, we look utterly ridiculous and fans, rightly, question what on earth our priorities are.

 

[Micalijo]

I'd imagine the Copthorne has been an absolute disaster and will be about as profitable as a Chocolate Teapot Shop. I just hoping we're not covering what I envisage are huge losses.

Agreed. No way for me will Copthorne be making on it. Not that I have a clue about occupancy rates etc.

I know Copthorne will be tied in but if they say 'no more' what is our comeback? We sue them I assume and a la WHU end up with some negotiated settlement.

No other hotel operator is interested at a price where we can anywhere near cover the interest costs and suddenly you have a situation where a proportion of what little income we do have is earmarked for paying off the bank for an empty hotel.

 

[oldblade]

Agreed. No way for me will Copthorne be making on it. Not that I have a clue about occupancy rates etc.

I know Copthorne will be tied in but if they say 'no more' what is our comeback? We sue them I assume and a la WHU end up with some negotiated settlement.

No other hotel operator is interested at a price where we can anywhere near cover the interest costs and suddenly you have a situation where a proportion of what little income we do have is earmarked for paying off the bank for an empty hotel.

I have booked into that hotel several times and can assure you it is far from empty.

 

[Large Mendonca]

Also consider if KMcC is planning to sell up as there seems to be growing rumours. One of the attractions for a potential buyer is the property. Dont kid yourselves that there are a stream of people desperate to buy a second division provincial football club, because there aren't. Wednesday have other problems in share ownership, but they are getting less success in attracting a potential partner than an ugly kid in a disco. A profitable international property business with a strong football team 'brand'? Now thats a different proposition altogether.

Nail on head.

 

[lenners]

Why would McCabe (or anyone else) sell off 'a profitable international property business with a strong football team brand'?

 

[Wapping Blade]

Why won't Copthorme be making money?

 

[Large Mendonca]

Why would McCabe (or anyone else) sell off 'a profitable international property business with a strong football team brand'?

Well, he's not getting any younger

 

[Micalijo]

Why won't Copthorme be making money?

Because they are paying X to us and suffering Y in running costs. I think Y is greater than X - but have no way of substantiating this other than by referring in general to the current deep recession affecting most areas of the economy.

 

[DuncDisorderly]

Because they are paying X to us and suffering Y in running costs. I think Y is greater than X - but have no way of substantiating this other than by referring in general to the current deep recession affecting most areas of the economy.

Its un-necessary to substantiate anything, just pull some 'facts' out of your arse, and then the mere act of declaring them on this forum makes them real.

Copthorne are not idiots. KMcCabe isn't an idiot. The numbers will stack up.