GoalWatch vs Aston Villa/midfield AWOL

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You could have drove the millenuim falcon through our defence last night

I looked at that back 3 and thought it had all you need in terms of physicality to make a good back 3 in the Premier league
The one thing they are missing is bollox but it's probably more important than any of the others
 

Bergen Blade said:
There's a general rule about zonal defending - if the man on the ball is poorly closed down, don't push up. It is too risky, and some strikers are really good at breaking the offside trap with a clever run.

So in both situations you mention, I would have recommended our defence (preferably in a straight line) to drop deeper - always stay in control of the space in behind.
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Well,this reveals another problem,nobody on field with the football brain quick enough to respond to situations like getting the defence to push or drop back,and the midfield to press the ball more
 
blade67 said:
I was shocked at the game how easily they ran away from our defenders for the first three goals, but did wonder how much time they'd had to make some really good passes.
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Not really, speed (and speed of thought) is what kills at this level, and we haven't really recruited defenders that are also quick. Doesn't matter though, half the board would be fine watching Watkins run away from a new signing to score, as long as the new signing is 6'5", as that's the only thing a defender needs apparently
 
Blacksea said:
Well,this reveals another problem,nobody on field with the football brain quick enough to respond to situations like getting the defence to push or drop back,and the midfield to press the ball more
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It's a collective organisation thing that needs to be drilled to perfection on the training pitch. It can be difficult to get it right every time, and Villa took a risk when pushing up as BBD ran in behind after ten minutes:

1707057862559.png
 
jt64 said:
Not really, speed (and speed of thought) is what kills at this level, and we haven't really recruited defenders that are also quick. Doesn't matter though, half the board would be fine watching Watkins run away from a new signing to score, as long as the new signing is 6'5", as that's the only thing a defender needs apparently
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I’m not sure height’s the problem, but physicality seems to be, to me. Anel seems far too easily beaten, physically.
 
alcoblade said:
I’m not sure height’s the problem, but physicality seems to be, to me. Anel seems far too easily beaten, physically.
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Yeah, not going to disagree players need physicality and athleticism. More directed at people posting in rumour mill/transfer threads saying "why can't we get a big centre half (then other stuff)" as if Premier League teams all use Stoke-level strategies and height above everything else is the most important thing someone can have. Will continue to say the best centre back I've seen in my lifetime was 5'9"...
 
Bergen Blade said:
Defence and defenders seem to be singled out for criticism, but it's a recurring theme that our midfield is AWOL too often. Today's starting formation was 5-2-3. We were hoping that a front three and high pressing would prevent them from playing out from the back. We started all right, but couldn't keep it up, and consequently our 2-man midfield wasn't enough to stop Villa's lethal counter attacking.

So, let's have a look at the five goals, and how our midfield failed to provide the protection that is absolutely vital at this level, especially when our defenders aren't world class.

1st: Luiz gets on the ball behind our midfield. He is unchallenged and can put Watkins through.

View attachment 178571

2nd: Our attack has broken down and again Luiz is unchallenged and superbly plays Watkins through:

View attachment 178573

3rd: Trusty has pushed up without winning the ball; Watkins gets on the ball behind our midfield. He plays it in behind for Bailey, who runs at panicking defenders who fails to stop him.

View attachment 178574

4th: Following two successive set pieces Tielemans is bizzarly allowed to shoot unchallenged twice and his second effort is brilliant.


View attachment 178575

5th: A messy goal. Villa's key pass is this one, and as can be seen we don't have two traditional departments that the opposition has to break through. RND is closing down the man on the ball hitting the key pass. Trusty has broken out of he backline, focusing on Tielemans dropping deep. AA is pretty much on his own against Watkins again, and Holgate is caught in noman's land. So the midfield at the time is again awol - Brooks further forward, Souza and Hamer more central.

So again Villa's man on the ball has the space to pick his pass, in behind for Watkins to race on to, putting AA in a difficult situation. The man on the ball isn't closed down well enough for him to push up and try to play Watkins offside, and then he is pretty much left on his own against a forward who is excellent in these situations. A few things happen after the screenshot below, but it is another situation where Villa's midfield are unchallenged to pick out the run in behind, and we fail to regain control.

View attachment 178576

Could we have done anything different?


Looking at the photo below, we look back-heavy against a team with one central striker. Five men, how are they not able to deal with him? Well, partly because our midfield was inadequate. Even here, when we have switched to a 5-3-2, we are still unable to put pressure on their defenders while preventing them passing options in midfield.

Our plan was for our midfield to push onto their central midfield playmakers, and then let our wide centre halves to push up to challenge players finding space behind our midfield. Tielemans roamed around in this area and caused problems, Watkins dropped deep and showed great strength, and it just became messy and disorganised as defenders broke out of the line without winning the ball.



View attachment 178579


In hindsight, I would have moved Holgate into midfield to have an extra body there to challenge and deal with Villa's supply line. Maybe that could have enabled a back four to concentrate more (as in pulling together centrally) and keep in control of the space in behind, rather than being forced to decide who's gonna push up, also leaving space behind himself, when do they stay high, etc. Souza and Brooks was inadequate, and it didn't help much moving McAtee a bit deeper.

We finished the match stronger. Obviously Villa had taken the foot of the gas, but it also helped having more solid players in midfield (Davies, Souza and Osborn). I think this match, like our last PL campaign under Wilder, shows that a back five won't automatically make us hard to score against. Being competitive in midfield is going to be key for us to finish the season in a decent manner.
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Excellent analysis as always. My thought on the first goal is that Anel is far deeper than any other defender so could just step up to play Watkins offside.
 
Wes on the 2nd goal did what I see in my sons junior football, just stood routed.

This is definitely the most depressing season, yes we've gone down before, fine, but to see us getting walloped on our own patch so frequently is unforgivable.

I predicted wed go through 3 managers this season and its looking likely.

We have wasted another transfer window signed one half decent player and 2 who are not better than what we have.

If it thankful 2 teams have deducted points maybe as wed be confirmed down by early march
 
Another thing that was odd last night was our insistence on playing out from the back despite us barely being able to string 5 passes together all season. That just seemed to result in us being out of possession and really deep
 
Bergen Blade said:
Defence and defenders seem to be singled out for criticism, but it's a recurring theme that our midfield is AWOL too often. Today's starting formation was 5-2-3. We were hoping that a front three and high pressing would prevent them from playing out from the back. We started all right, but couldn't keep it up, and consequently our 2-man midfield wasn't enough to stop Villa's lethal counter attacking.

So, let's have a look at the five goals, and how our midfield failed to provide the protection that is absolutely vital at this level, especially when our defenders aren't world class.

1st: Luiz gets on the ball behind our midfield. He is unchallenged and can put Watkins through.

View attachment 178571

2nd: Our attack has broken down and again Luiz is unchallenged and superbly plays Watkins through:

View attachment 178573

3rd: Trusty has pushed up without winning the ball; Watkins gets on the ball behind our midfield. He plays it in behind for Bailey, who runs at panicking defenders who fails to stop him.

View attachment 178574

4th: Following two successive set pieces Tielemans is bizzarly allowed to shoot unchallenged twice and his second effort is brilliant.


View attachment 178575

5th: A messy goal. Villa's key pass is this one, and as can be seen we don't have two traditional departments that the opposition has to break through. RND is closing down the man on the ball hitting the key pass. Trusty has broken out of he backline, focusing on Tielemans dropping deep. AA is pretty much on his own against Watkins again, and Holgate is caught in noman's land. So the midfield at the time is again awol - Brooks further forward, Souza and Hamer more central.

So again Villa's man on the ball has the space to pick his pass, in behind for Watkins to race on to, putting AA in a difficult situation. The man on the ball isn't closed down well enough for him to push up and try to play Watkins offside, and then he is pretty much left on his own against a forward who is excellent in these situations. A few things happen after the screenshot below, but it is another situation where Villa's midfield are unchallenged to pick out the run in behind, and we fail to regain control.

View attachment 178576

Could we have done anything different?


Looking at the photo below, we look back-heavy against a team with one central striker. Five men, how are they not able to deal with him? Well, partly because our midfield was inadequate. Even here, when we have switched to a 5-3-2, we are still unable to put pressure on their defenders while preventing them passing options in midfield.

Our plan was for our midfield to push onto their central midfield playmakers, and then let our wide centre halves to push up to challenge players finding space behind our midfield. Tielemans roamed around in this area and caused problems, Watkins dropped deep and showed great strength, and it just became messy and disorganised as defenders broke out of the line without winning the ball.



View attachment 178579


In hindsight, I would have moved Holgate into midfield to have an extra body there to challenge and deal with Villa's supply line. Maybe that could have enabled a back four to concentrate more (as in pulling together centrally) and keep in control of the space in behind, rather than being forced to decide who's gonna push up, also leaving space behind himself, when do they stay high, etc. Souza and Brooks was inadequate, and it didn't help much moving McAtee a bit deeper.

We finished the match stronger. Obviously Villa had taken the foot of the gas, but it also helped having more solid players in midfield (Davies, Souza and Osborn). I think this match, like our last PL campaign under Wilder, shows that a back five won't automatically make us hard to score against. Being competitive in midfield is going to be key for us to finish the season in a decent manner.
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Excellent summary. Any chance that you are looking for a new job? I might give CW a call for you. Christ, we need some help tactically.
 

bertieblade said:
The first goal was initially kept out by Anel, unfortunately struck the post and luckily across goal to enable McGinn to slip into an empty net.
Good piece of anticipation which was admired by Trusty who stopped running back whilst McGinn kept going.
The words pathetic and unprofessional were two of the milder ones I yelled at him.
All in all he was bloody useless, never saw him for the next three goals and I could only admire how he kept the ball in play shin it and then watch as they scored the fifth.
I had hopes for Trusty but he was woeful tonight
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Holgate was admiring McGinns run even more than Trusty.
 
alcoblade said:
I’m this awful defence, I’m gobsmacked that Robinson has lost his place. The only defender to come out with any credibility this season.
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Agree. He says he went with Trusty and Holgate for the pace, which makes sense given our high line.

Had we sat like in the away game, JLT would've started for sure.
 
Bergen Blade said:
There's a general rule about zonal defending - if the man on the ball is poorly closed down, don't push up. It is too risky, and some strikers are really good at breaking the offside trap with a clever run.

So in both situations you mention, I would have recommended our defence (preferably in a straight line) to drop deeper - always stay in control of the space in behind.
Click to expand...

Exactly this. I played centre half for many years and it was usually one close the runner or the man on the ball down, one manage the space. We don't have a commanding centre half who's a leader, we collectively discharge responsibility and are left shaking out heads, staring at the ground then pointing at who knows what. It's really basic stuff, I'm shocked that experienced coaches and players haven't done anything about this in years. We got lucky with this stuff last season, Premier League players aren't so forgiving.
 
Maurice Maurice said:
Exactly this. I played centre half for many years and it was usually one close the runner or the man on the ball down, one manage the space. We don't have a commanding centre half who's a leader, we collectively discharge responsibility and are left shaking out heads, staring at the ground then pointing at who knows what. It's really basic stuff, I'm shocked that experienced coaches and players haven't done anything about this in years. We got lucky with this stuff last season, Premier League players aren't so forgiving.
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There are a whole host of things not being addressed for a good few years. Egan getting caught on the turn. Egan giving silly frees away near the half way line by biting when he should be dropping off.

Like you I played centrehalf and I learnt at uni from a centrehalf who was from one of the top schoolboy teams in Dublin. He was nothing special on the ball but by god could he organise a defence. Continually talking and directing. When the opposition got a foot on the ball we dropped five yards straight away. Don't get caught out by a ball in behind. Make them work for it.

Bergen has put some good analysis there but also if you look at the first photo. Anel and Holgate are facing in opposite directions. That should never happen. Its time to do a George Graham on it.....walk around the pitch with the ball and asking the defenders where they should be. Holgate Trusty and Anel were continually out of position and ball watching along with Bogle.

Two defensive midfielders are fine but that I not where Souza and Brooks were playing. They were pushing up to press but as the other 3 in front weren't pressing hard enough, defenders were able to pick out players at will.
 
Lots of problems with the ability of individuals, and the tactics were in hindsight wrong. Would some of this have been less disastrous if we had vocal, natural organisers in the squad? Sitting behind the Kop goal, and watching us getting overrun, I was struck by the way that nobody appeared to be shouting, cajoling, organising. We do not seem to have a natural leader in the squad, or a player that others all look up to.
 
Bergen Blade said:
There's a general rule about zonal defending - if the man on the ball is poorly closed down, don't push up. It is too risky, and some strikers are really good at breaking the offside trap with a clever run.

So in both situations you mention, I would have recommended our defence (preferably in a straight line) to drop deeper - always stay in control of the space in behind.
Click to expand...

And if you’re going to push up, at least have a keeper that can play sweeper and not think that to venture beyond the 18 yard line will result in his certain death.
 
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