Get it built !!!

[Flatulent_Bob]

The fanbase comes with results. If we were to go down and then struggle we will not be filling a fancy new stadium.

No one can get in currently. No ST likely to go on general sale and kids unable to attend for an odd game here and there. An increase to 37-38,000 while we can do it without impact the current fans sounds like a entirely sensible option.

Yes. Because there isn’t a huge financial advantage in having an extra £10k capacity. It’s only a small part of our income when we’re in the PL and we won’t fill it if we’re in the championship.

Do you honestly think that it’s more important than improving the first team and squad, sorting out the academy and developing our scouting network? Or do you think we’ve got the money to do all of these things?

I don’t think it’s an either/or and I think a one time opportunity to do the Kop or South Stand without having to kick out season ticket holders for a season has presented itself. 37-38,000 would be a perfectly sensible mid point.

 

[BushBlade]

No one can get in currently. No ST likely to go on general sale and kids unable to attend for an odd game here and there. An increase to 37-38,000 while we can do it without impact the current fans sounds like a entirely sensible option.


I don’t think it’s an either/or and I think a one time opportunity to do the Kop or South Stand without having to kick out season ticket holders for a season has presented itself. 37-38,000 would be a perfectly sensible mid point.

So you do think we’ve got the money to do it all?

 

[Crafty Blade]

A few metres in a residential area........

Would have to look at the original planning permission to see if the design was right at the limit of accepibility in terms of height and daylight to the houses on Shoreham street, or whether there is scope for a but more height. I dont know.

 

[FTPE]

Hasn't Wilder just said the takeover has set us back 20-30 million?

 

[Booker4]

Pretty sure that’ll be part of it. The chairman Mu’saud has said that a modest expansion of about 5000 and the removal of the pillars is in the short to medium term plans. Think the new training ground at norton (unless they’ve found somewhere else since) will be first though.

Does that mean that in the longer term he plans further developments to the Kop then? If so, I can't imagine we'd extend it then level it and build another one, as an example!

 

[Booker4]

It wouldn't be ideal, but if they are intent on doing it on the cheap (again) by just building behind it, a two-tiered stand would look a lot better aesthetically than the visuals put forward. And it would provide better views from the new seats.

Atmosphere is certainly another key consideration, and i take your point that having two tiers may not be the ideal solution from this perspective. But issues with singing as one surely just go with the territory for big stands. I'm not sure how tangible it'd be to say a two-tiered stand would worsen atmosphere, especially when full. And if it was half empty then atmosphere would suffer regardless of design.

Of course having two tiers wouldn't be a 'Kop', and if we're precious about this as a club then that is perhaps why it is proposed the way it is. These were McCabe's plans and maybe HRH would have a different vision.

The ideal would be to build an entire new stand, with a steep single tier and safe standing.

You're spot on re the last line, but that would of course take longer, more expensive and if we can get safe standing then I see less of a problem with the current Kop, which if extended as the plans were then it'll look good. But, maybe we'll scrap it all and build a new stand. Either way, its great news today, especially after coming so soon after the damaging news that the Copthorne has closed. I hope that can be resolved asap.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Hasn't Wilder just said the takeover has set us back 20-30 million?

Covid has.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

So you do think we’ve got the money to do it all?

I believe it's not impossible that this can be done without impacting next seasons player budget or the training ground development yes.

 

[BushBlade]

I believe it can be done, without impacting next seasons player budget or the training ground development yes.

How? Where does the money come from, without putting us in significant debt, debt that we probably couldn’t pay off if we get relegated during the payback period?

 

[FTPE]

Covid has.

Oh, have I just come in and grabbed the wrong end of the stick!?

Either way, there's another thread depressingly going on about how financially weakened we have been.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

How? Where does the money come from, without putting us in significant debt, debt that we probably couldn’t pay off if we get relegated during the payback period?

I believe we will have additional income streams coming online due to our first year in the PL which we didn't realise last year. I also think some of our current deals will be renegotiated given our performances. Do you think we're going to complete any of our infrastructure upgrades without resorting to loans, when interest rates are at an all time low?

 

[Teofilo Cubillas]

If its built on an artificial hill and its Bramall Lane then its a Kop and always will be a Kop!

What needs to be done is too knock down the South Stand, turn the pitch around, rebuild the cricket pavilion.. rebuild all the other stands (with bogs, pies and proper beer): so that John Street becomes the new home end... and from there on, we all have a whole 'brand new shiny downtown beautiful Bramall Lane' with a certain coherence, in preference to the current one thats been muddled together over the last 50 years.
The difficult part is to stay up next season. So give us a goal or two tomorrow Mr.B, or Mr.Zed... anyone... it doesn't matter who!

 

[Niceguyeddie]

Hasn't Wilder just said the takeover has set us back 20-30 million?

No

 

[Upton_Blade]

You're spot on re the last line, but that would of course take longer, more expensive and if we can get safe standing then I see less of a problem with the current Kop, which if extended as the plans were then it'll look good. But, maybe we'll scrap it all and build a new stand. Either way, its great news today, especially after coming so soon after the damaging news that the Copthorne has closed. I hope that can be resolved asap.

This has probably been done to death on other threads but I really don't see where the obsession with levelling the entire stand and starting from scratch comes from.

The bolt on extension and removal of the pillars with better facilities would be relatively cheap, and quick, to do. A complete rebuild not so much.

Seems to me the main goal of those wanting a complete rebuild is better leg room but any capital investment of this sort is judged on a ROI basis. Without any corporate facilities to bring money in the ROI of completely redoing the kop would be horrendous unless everyone that sits there is prepared to pay a massive increase in their prices.

Barring atmosphere i'd hazard a guess the main reason most sit on there is the cost and with the inevitable future of inclusion of safe standing I really don't see any sensible reason to flatten and rebuild the entire thing.

 

[BushBlade]

I believe we will have additional income streams coming online due to our first year in the PL which we didn't realise last year. I also think some of our current deals will be renegotiated given our performances. Do you think we're going to complete any of our infrastructure upgrades without resorting to loans, when interest rates are at an all time low?

To deal with your second point first, no, I think PA has already taken out a loan secured against the club to pay for the stadium. I’m a bit concerned by that but I’ll accept that as I’ve got older I’ve become much more risk averse and perhaps too cautious.
I suspect that any improvements to the academy will also be financed. There may be scope to redevelop the Shirecliffe site for profit but I’ve no idea on that really.

For me, that’s more than enough finance.

What other income streams do you expect to come online?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

To deal with your second point first, no, I think PA has already taken out a loan secured against the club to pay for the stadium. I’m a bit concerned by that but I’ll accept that as I’ve got older I’ve become much more risk averse and perhaps too cautious.
I suspect that any improvements to the academy will also be financed. There may be scope to redevelop the Shirecliffe site for profit but I’ve no idea on that really.

For me, that’s more than enough finance.

What other income streams do you expect to come online?

Additional sponsorship for one we’ve only just started to mine that particular seam.
I also don’t think the move from Shirecliffe will happen this year as I thought we’re doing some redevelopment in the summer so the Norton rumours I can’t see happening just yet and is a longer term goal.
What would you expect the cost to just re-develop the Kop to be?

 

[BigBed]

Would have to look at the original planning permission to see if the design was right at the limit of accepibility in terms of height and daylight to the houses on Shoreham street, or whether there is scope for a but more height. I dont know.

They would also need all the residents to give it the thumbs up.

 

[BushBlade]

Additional sponsorship for one we’ve only just started to mine that particular seam.
I also don’t think the move from Shirecliffe will happen this year as I thought we’re doing some redevelopment in the summer so the Norton rumours I can’t see happening just yet and is a longer term goal.
What would expect the cost to just re-develop the Kop to be?

Yeah I guess after the season we’ve had we may be able to attract more sponsorship. We haven’t even sold naming rights for the Lane yet.

I’ve no idea how much it would cost to do the kop, the cost of stadium development seems to vary a lot. For example;

In South London, Crystal Palace also aim to expand Selhurst Park – the ageing Main Stand will be replaced with a new 5-story stand, increasing the capacity by 8,000 seats to more than 34,000. The project is estimated to cost between GBP 75-100 million and is scheduled to be finished by the beginning of the 2020/21 season.

Football Benchmark - Stadium developments – the boom continues

www.footballbenchmark.com

I’d guess you could do it for maybe £20-30m for a basic one and perhaps £30-40m for something decent.

 

[Blade58]

Whatever the good news may be, I don’t see it being significant in terms of new or improved stands.

Too much cost involved coming at a time with Covid uncertainty, lost revenue from Covid and lost advertising and the significant cost of buying back the assets.

I also don’t see the kop being developed if KM still owns the land behind the kop.

Personally think it will be linked to a new training facility, as this won’t impact on the running of the club. We can keep continuity in terms of training at Shirecliffe and playing matches whilst a new facility is being built and of course this is one of CW’s priorities.

 

[Crafty Blade]

This has probably been done to death on other threads but I really don't see where the obsession with levelling the entire stand and starting from scratch comes from.

The bolt on extension and removal of the pillars with better facilities would be relatively cheap, and quick, to do. A complete rebuild not so much.

Seems to me the main goal of those wanting a complete rebuild is better leg room but any capital investment of this sort is judged on a ROI basis. Without any corporate facilities to bring money in the ROI of completely redoing the kop would be horrendous unless everyone that sits there is prepared to pay a massive increase in their prices.

Barring atmosphere i'd hazard a guess the main reason most sit on there is the cost and with the inevitable future of inclusion of safe standing I really don't see any sensible reason to flatten and rebuild the entire thing.

Leg room is one thing, but for me it is due to the shallow slope, because even when stood up, if everyone in front is also stood up, you still cannot see the goal line from certain places on the kop.

Any redevelopment would likely still be there long after we all see our last game, it's a long term investment in the fan experience, we all want the best for this club, and the existing structure is not fit for purpose.

 

[FTPE]

No

'Our landscape has definitely changed. I’m not embarrassed to say that. We will lose a chunk of change. Maybe £20m-£30m, although that might be a question for (chief executive) Steve Bettis. So that does affect investment, and also in the next few days, when the transfer will go through from one owner to another'
Different reason, same figure.

 

[FredZeppelin]

Whatever the good news may be, I don’t see it being significant in terms of new or improved stands.

Too much cost involved coming at a time with Covid uncertainty, lost revenue from Covid and lost advertising and the significant cost of buying back the assets.

I also don’t see the kop being developed if KM still owns the land behind the kop.

Personally think it will be linked to a new training facility, as this won’t impact on the running of the club. We can keep continuity in terms of training at Shirecliffe and playing matches whilst a new facility is being built and of course this is one of CW’s priorities.

I agree. Strong suggestions a while back that the large site at Norton was going to be acquired. If so, it's more than big enough to house both the 1st Team and Academy set-ups. The cash from then selling Shirecliffe off for housing would also further assist the funding of the new state-of-the-art facility.

This (new training development and improvements) was a promise made to Wilder before he signed his last contract, wasn't it?

UTB

 

[Upton_Blade]

Any redevelopment would likely still be there long after we all see our last game, it's a long term investment in the fan experience, we all want the best for this club, and the existing structure is not fit for purpose.

I get that but the days of owners doing the best thing for the fans are long gone. Football is now a business whether we like it or not and on that basis ANY ground improvement will be judged on how long it takes to get a ROI.

Completely redoing the kop just doesn't make any sense from a business point of view whatsoever.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

It wouldn't be ideal, but if they are intent on doing it on the cheap (again) by just building behind it, a two-tiered stand would look a lot better aesthetically than the visuals put forward. And it would provide better views from the new seats.

Atmosphere is certainly another key consideration, and i take your point that having two tiers may not be the ideal solution from this perspective. But issues with singing as one surely just go with the territory for big stands. I'm not sure how tangible it'd be to say a two-tiered stand would worsen atmosphere, especially when full. And if it was half empty then atmosphere would suffer regardless of design.

Of course having two tiers wouldn't be a 'Kop', and if we're precious about this as a club then that is perhaps why it is proposed the way it is. These were McCabe's plans and maybe HRH would have a different vision.

The ideal would be to build an entire new stand, with a steep single tier and safe standing.

Kop has to stay as a kop, no question. Other clubs have killed their grounds with 'improvements' or new stadums.
Get the pillars out, some decent access and facilities, that's it.

 

[Silent Blade]

'Our landscape has definitely changed. I’m not embarrassed to say that. We will lose a chunk of change. Maybe £20m-£30m, although that might be a question for (chief executive) Steve Bettis. So that does affect investment, and also in the next few days, when the transfer will go through from one owner to another'
Different reason, same figure.

Most of the £20-30M are the money we are paying back to Sky Sports/Overseas tv etc

 

[Houston_Blade]

Apart from building the fan base for long term stability regardless of the league we’re in?

How does putting more seats in the stadium build a fanbase more effectively than building a team capable of staying in the PL long term?

 

[SwindonBladeJnr]

If we don't pull the trigger on stadium expansion/improvement now, when should we?

The argument based on "well we don't sell out currently" falls apart very, very quickly with just a bit of consideration...

 

[bromtom]

If we don't pull the trigger on stadium expansion/improvement now, when should we?

The argument based on "well we don't sell out currently" falls apart very, very quickly with just a bit of consideration...

I think taking the Kop pillars out now would be smart, depending on how involved it would be, what with the ground being empty for at least a couple of months I'd say, and probably more.

That said, the club and therefore the fans would gain more from having top notch training facilities and playing in the Premier League.

 

[Kenilworth]

Should be looking to improve the training facilities and the academy facilities first. Ground improvements can come in 4-5 years time if we are still raking in the premier coin.

 

[YES Blade]

I get that but the days of owners doing the best thing for the fans are long gone. Football is now a business whether we like it or not and on that basis ANY ground improvement will be judged on how long it takes to get a ROI.

Completely redoing the kop just doesn't make any sense from a business point of view whatsoever.

We should either rebuild the Kop properly or not at all, if it costs too much and the return on investment is too great, then don’t bother.

McCabe’s shitty World Cup vanity project expansion plans should go straight in the bin. We shouldn’t settle for the cheap options anymore, we should expect better. I don’t expect Spurs‘ Stadium facilities, but on par with the vast majority of the Championship (and some League One ffs) would be nice!