Derby forum

[oldblade]

A big factor regards size, is stadium capacity.....the normal rule is the bigger clubs have the bigger stadium capacities.
Another factor helps improve Wednesday size reputation is historically when ever they do have a massive/ historical game they tend to fill their stadium.

Appreciate that Wednesday core support isn’t anything special but they’ve historically had a reputation of having a big potential with many 1000’s of glory hunters waiting to come out of the woodwork. So their size reputation is mainly based on this difficult to prove factor called “potential”.

Not many people realise that historically both Derby and Forest were medium sized clubs with quite small fan bases.....no where near the support of either Sheffield club. Just after the war Notts County were pulling in bigger crowds than Forest and they still hold the record of having the highest average attendance in that city.

Derby’s fame comes from the early/ mid 1970’s when they one of the best teams in the league.
and Forest’s fame comes from their amazing achievements of the late 70’s....wining the league and 2 European Cups which earns them massive kudos.
I actuallly like and respect both clubs. I’d put Derby and Forest on a par with us...with similar support.
Put it this way you’d much rather have Derby and Forest in the PL compared to Brighton, Palace, Bournmouth, Fulham, Watford etc.

With regard to Forest, Even as recently as the early to mid 1970s they were in danger of being overtaken by Notts County. For two seasons running (1972-3 and 1973-4) Notts County were averaging more than Forest.

 

[oldblade]

It's a joke with Wednesday about how old you need to have been to have bought a pint at a Prem game at Hillsborough. The answer is you'd need to be nearly 40. Or put it another way, how old were you in your earliest memories? Generally it's about 5-6 for any kind of reliable memory. So unless you're over 26 you have literally no memory of Wednesday as a top flight team. How many times have Derby been in the Prem in that period? Definitely spent more time out of it.

It's making a list of the biggest clubs in a sport and picking based on criteria that no one below their mid-late twenties has any idea about aside from a history book. Derby winning the European cup was 50 years ago. Maybe this is my youth talking (I'm only in my thirties, so my knowledge of who's a big team is clearly very limited) but thinking of Derby as a top club is a bit like thinking the Soviets are one of the world's super-powers.

If you want to know who's a big club then look at the last few years, maybe a bit more, but not fifty or sixty.

As an arbitrary period for making comparisons, if we look at time spent in the premier league during seasons which took place entirely in this century you will see that we have had 3 seasons, Derby 3 seasons, Forest zero seasons, Wednesday zero seasons.

As I said, it is an arbitrary starting point, but it is a 21 year period - more than a quarter of most people's life span.

 

[Sheffsteel]

With regard to Forest, Even as recently as the early to mid 1970s they were in danger of being overtaken by Notts County. For two seasons running (1972-3 and 1973-4) Notts County were averaging more than Forest.

Notts County ‘s highest ever average is 35,176.
This was in 1950 when they were champions of division 3 south.

Nottingham Forest‘s highest ever average attendance is 32,715.
This was in 1968 when they finished 11th in division 1.
The reason it was so high was because in 1967 Forest finished 2nd in the top flight.
Even in their pomp when they were winning the league and European Cup they were averaging 29 to 32K.

Another strange but true fact is Forest have only averaged over 25,000 on TWO occasions in the last 25 seasons.
and they’ve only averaged over 25,000 THREE times in the last 40 seasons.
They have a solid fanbase of 22K (a bit like us) but historically it struggles to get much higher.

 

[paul betts]

What you expect? They spend all day tweeting. Theyre Canaries.

Sorry.

Where’s yer effin coat???

 

[PokerBlade]

As an arbitrary period for making comparisons, if we look at time spent in the premier league during seasons which took place entirely in this century you will see that we have had 3 seasons, Derby 3 seasons, Forest zero seasons, Wednesday zero seasons.

As I said, it is an arbitrary starting point, but it is a 21 year period - more than a quarter of most people's life span.

Yeah, if I had to pick I'd go by what was said by younger people, maybe 15-25yo, because at least they'll be picking from things in recent memory. Personally, I think it's a daft question. No one really knows what "big" means. The objective criteria in sport is the actual rankings of the time and even that's not perfect.

If Yeovil win the Premier League four seasons from now then I'd think it stupid for say a Forest fan to sit there and go "We're still a bigger club than Yeovil". Who would care about some weird criteria of "bigness" when they're the reigning champions and you're not?

 

[LardSardine]

So of the clubs listed above, i've granted each club points based on the following criteria (not scientific, but...)

5pts - A Season in the Top Flight
10pts - League Cup Win
25pts - FA Cup Win
50pts - League Title

I say it's not that scientific, but bloody hell, it's not far off is it...

	Top Flight Seasons​	Pts​	League Cup Wins​	Pts​	FA Cup Wins​	Pts​	League Titles​	Pts​	Overall Points​
MANCHESTER UNITED	96	480	5	50	12	300	20	1000	1830
LIVERPOOL	106	530	8	80	7	175	19	950	1735
ARSENAL	104	520	2	20	14	350	13	650	1540
EVERTON	118	590	0	0	5	125	9	450	1165
ASTON VILLA	107	535	5	50	7	175	7	350	1110
MANCHESTER CITY	92	460	8	80	6	150	6	300	990
CHELSEA	86	430	5	50	8	200	6	300	980
NEWCASTLE UNITED	89	445	0	0	6	150	4	200	795
SUNDERLAND	86	430	0	0	2	50	6	300	780
TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR	86	430	4	40	8	200	2	100	770
BLACKBURN ROVERS	72	360	1	10	6	150	3	150	670
SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY	66	330	1	10	3	75	4	200	615
WOLVERHAMPTON WANDERERS	66	330	2	20	4	100	3	150	600
WEST BROMWICH ALBION	82	410	1	10	5	125	1	50	595
BOLTON WANDERERS	73	365	0	0	4	100	0	0	465
SHEFFIELD UNITED	62	310	0	0	4	100	1	50	460
DERBY COUNTY	65	325	0	0	1	25	2	100	450
LEEDS UNITED	51	255	1	10	1	25	3	150	440
NOTTINGHAM FOREST	56	280	4	40	2	50	1	50	420
BURNLEY	58	290	0	0	1	25	2	100	415
WEST HAM UNITED	63	315	0	0	3	75	0	0	390
PRESTON NORTH END	46	230	0	0	2	50	2	100	380
LEICESTER CITY	54	270	3	30	0	0	1	50	350
HUDDERSFIELD TOWN	32	160	0	0	1	25	3	150	335
STOKE CITY	62	310	1	10	0	0	0	0	320
MIDDLESBROUGH	61	305	1	10	0	0	0	0	315
PORTSMOUTH	33	165	0	0	2	50	2	100	315
BIRMINGHAM CITY	57	285	2	20	0	0	0	0	305
SOUTHAMPTON	42	210	0	0	1	25	0	0	235
IPSWICH TOWN	27	135	0	0	1	25	1	50	210
COVENTRY CITY	34	170	0	0	1	25	0	0	195
NOTTS COUNTY	30	150	0	0	1	25	0	0	175
BLACKPOOL	28	140	0	0	1	25	0	0	165
BURY	22	110	0	0	2	50	0	0	160
CHARLTON ATHLETIC	26	130	0	0	1	25	0	0	155
NORWICH CITY	26	130	2	20	0	0	0	0	150
FULHAM	26	130	0	0	0	0	0	0	130
QUEENS PARK RANGERS	23	115	1	10	0	0	0	0	125
THE WANDERERS	0	0	0	0	5	125	0	0	125
CARDIFF CITY	17	85	0	0	1	25	0	0	110
WIMBLEDON	14	70	0	0	1	25	0	0	95
LUTON TOWN	16	80	1	10	0	0	0	0	90
BRADFORD CITY	12	60	0	0	1	25	0	0	85
WATFORD	13	65	0	0	0	0	0	0	65
WIGAN ATHLETIC	8	40	0	0	1	25	0	0	65
GRIMSBY	12	60	0	0	0	0	0	0	60
OLDHAM	12	60	0	0	0	0	0	0	60
SWANSEA CITY	9	45	1	10	0	0	0	0	55
OLD ETONIANS	0	0	0	0	2	50	0	0	50
BRIGHTON	8	40	0	0	0	0	0	0	40
BARNSLEY	1	5	0	0	1	25	0	0	30
ACCRINGTON	5	25	0	0	0	0	0	0	25
AFC BOURNEMOUTH	5	25	0	0	0	0	0	0	25
BLACKBURN OLYMPIC	0	0	0	0	1	25	0	0	25
BRENTFORD	5	25	0	0	0	0	0	0	25
CLAPHAM ROVERS	0	0	0	0	1	25	0	0	25
HULL	5	25	0	0	0	0	0	0	25
OLD CARTHUSIANS	0	0	0	0	1	25	0	0	25
OXFORD UNITED	3	15	1	10	0	0	0	0	25
OXFORD UNIVERSITY	0	0	0	0	1	25	0	0	25
ROYAL ENGINEERS	0	0	0	0	1	25	0	0	25
BRADFORD PA	3	15	0	0	0	0	0	0	15
READING	3	15	0	0	0	0	0	0	15
SWINDON TOWN	1	5	1	10	0	0	0	0	15
DARWEN	2	10	0	0	0	0	0	0	10
GLOSSOP	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	5
LEYTON ORIENT	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	5
NORTHAMPTON	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	5​

The Athletic did a similar story last year on trying to rank 'big clubs'. They used different metrics (Crowds, Global Fanbase, Major Trophies, Trophies in last 20 years, Avg League Finish, Player Quality, Commercial Revenue), but we actually ended up higher (in 17th place) than both Wednesday and Derby (joint 23rd) on their list. For those with a subscription: https://theathletic.co.uk/2087683/2020/10/01/england-biggest-club-premier-league/

And by the way, you only have to look at the comments on this page to see how pointless and divisive this discussion is, no matter what metrics you use. Which to be fair is recognised in the article.

 

[Silent Blade]

Notts County ‘s highest ever average is 35,176.
This was in 1950 when they were champions of division 3 south.

England international, Tommy Lawton was playing for them at the time