Coutts - is he done?

[Cyprus Blade]

I think Reed is miles away from the team. He hasn't moved on physically and looks very lightweight ,he maybe another who suffered under Adkins year of hell but from what Ive seen of him pre season he looks a bit lost atm.

I agree though I think Reed has looked lost since that awful match he played away at Notts County under Clough when he was substituted. Definitely gone backwards if only in confidence - certainly not a first choice starter. I would like to see how K Wallace performs in the position currently held by Basham. He has a good engine, can defend, is tall, has some pace and he came to us as a midfielder yet most of his performances for us recently have been as LB or CH. He might surprise us - though I do have memories of that mis-kicked free-kick shortly after he came to us. Realistically we need to buy.

PS Interesting how J Wallace has disappeared from people's first 11 choices. The new-season optimism that he would magically stop being injury-prone dissipated before the friendlies had finished. He's another wage drain which is costing us with every week he is here.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Is Coutts one of those players that always look good on the training pitch? I'm sure that I have read before that several players and managers have said this.
This would also make sense as there aren't any serious tackling going on. This theory also holds, that he looks good in pre season, where again tackling is at a minimum.

He's also magnificent in that warmup exercise before the game where they have to pass within the square without really having to move much.

 

[DronnieBlade]

Some hilarious stuff on this thread.

In a better balanced team, Coutts could be a major asset as he actually knows how to play football.

Granted he lacks a certain discipline and is never going to win crunching tackles, but his deficiencies in his athleticism are more than compensated for as a sound technical footballer.

Seems Tufty is happy to have him hanging around 1st team squad as he has shown a good attitude in pre season, given he is listed.

Don't be surprised to see him get minutes off the bench.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Some hilarious stuff on this thread.

In a better balanced team, Coutts could be a major asset as he actually knows how to play football.

Granted he lacks a certain discipline and is never going to win crunching tackles, but his deficiencies in his athleticism are more than compensated for as a sound technical footballer.

Seems Tufty is happy to have him hanging around 1st team squad as he has shown a good attitude in pre season, given he is listed.

Don't be surprised to see him get minutes off the bench.

UTB

You might find it hilarious, but Wilder immediately transfer listed him, and nobody else in the footballing world wants him.

I think most people on this thread are completely in touch with the reality of the situation.

UTB

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Some hilarious stuff on this thread.

In a better balanced team, Coutts could be a major asset as he actually knows how to play football.

Granted he lacks a certain discipline and is never going to win crunching tackles, but his deficiencies in his athleticism are more than compensated for as a sound technical footballer.

Seems Tufty is happy to have him hanging around 1st team squad as he has shown a good attitude in pre season, given he is listed.

Don't be surprised to see him get minutes off the bench.

UTB

Yep coming on on the 92nd minutes. Perhaps to slow the pace down . Wonders will never cease.

UTB

 

[Davie Blade]

No goals
Very few assists
No penetrative passes
Can't run
Can't tackle

The worst example of the black hole that Clough and Adkins created in our midfield.

The big lesson from Coutts' signing? Same as Wallace - don't sign crocks. Stay away from players with terrible injury records, or if you can't help yourself, give them short, cheap deals. Wilder, thank goodness, understands this at least.

Which is a hell of a lot more than the myopic messiah fan boys do.
6 goals in 241 games over 8 years might just give an indication it is fuck all to do with pre-season fitness, injuries, the managers you play under etc etc and more to do with you being fucking shit player.

 

[BushBlade]

Yep coming on on the 92nd minutes. Perhaps to slow the pace down . Wonders will never cease.

UTB

If he's match fit there's a better chance we might be able to get rid before the end of the window, so it makes sense to give him some pre season games. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up doing a loan deal with the other club only paying a part of his wages.
Was it Doyle who raved about him in training? Maybe Pompey could take him?

 

[Grizzly blade]

You might find it hilarious, but Wilder immediately transfer listed him, and nobody else in the footballing world wants him.

I think most people on this thread are completely in touch with the reality of the situation.

UTB

You are of course quite right, he did immediately transfer list him.

However, the decision was probably born from watching him last season a few times under Adkins. He probably had pre conceived ideas about many players, hence why many were released or listed.

However, what he might also have seen since they returned to pre season is what I have seen. A good, tidy footballer.
Wilder may well have looked at him and thought....hang on....I might be able to get something from this fella.
He might also have said "how the hell did Adkins make such a mess of it with players with this quality in the team"

We shall see, and in a week or twos time Wilder might also have seen Coutts get a few minutes on the pitch and re affirmed his original decision to get shut, after all many here seem to possess such foresight that they can predict the future. But in the same period we as fans might just see his best, and therefore have either a player we can sell on, or a player worth keeping for the season at least.

I'm happy to wait and see..,.but if I was going to bet on it I would bet that Coutts is still at the club in May, and has started in a few and played a part in the majority of games.

 

[Deaneandagana]

Interesting debate this one & one which has polarised people with their views.

Statistically he doesn't show well in terms of appearances, goals, assists etc - reading other posts he also appears to have a track record of petulance at some of his previous clubs - were his (non) performances last season reflective of this personality trait?

My take is that his contributions for us have been on the whole poor, granted there have been a couple of assured cameos - but only a couple, it could be argued that he & several others who are still at the club have contributed significantly to our inability to escape this division.

I don't see him as a match winner, he's not a goal scorer nor a goal maker, neither does he have the physical or mental strength to take control & influence a game, yet having said that the boy can play.

 

[alcoblade]

You are of course quite right, he did immediately transfer list him.

However, the decision was probably born from watching him last season a few times under Adkins. He probably had pre conceived ideas about many players, hence why many were released or listed.

However, what he might also have seen since they returned to pre season is what I have seen. A good, tidy footballer.
Wilder may well have looked at him and thought....hang on....I might be able to get something from this fella.
He might also have said "how the hell did Adkins make such a mess of it with players with this quality in the team"

We shall see, and in a week or twos time Wilder might also have seen Coutts get a few minutes on the pitch and re affirmed his original decision to get shut, after all many here seem to possess such foresight that they can predict the future. But in the same period we as fans might just see his best, and therefore have either a player we can sell on, or a player worth keeping for the season at least.

I'm happy to wait and see..,.but if I was going to bet on it I would bet that Coutts is still at the club in May, and has started in a few and played a part in the majority of games.

We can agree he'll still be at he club. Nobody else will pay anywhere near what we've paid him.

It isn't personal. He's just another in a long list of very expensive, extremely ineffectual players that have taken our club for a ride over the last decade.

I'm just totally sick of players of his ilk.


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[dingledog]

We can agree he'll still be at he club. Nobody else will pay anywhere near what we've paid him.

It isn't personal. He's just another in a long list of very expensive, extremely ineffectual players that have taken our club for a ride over the last decade.

I'm just totally sick of players of his ilk.


UTB

He didn't take them for anything. The idiots in charge offered him a fortune, he accepted

 

[alcoblade]

He didn't take them for anything. The idiots in charge offered him a fortune, he accepted

I can almost forgive the total lack of actual performance I any objective measure.

Appearing to neither try or care equates to taking us for a ride, in my book.

Brayford has and even more ridiculous, even fatter contract. I've never accused him of taking us for a ride.

UTB

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Basic economics. Paul Coutts (and James Wallace) - the Opportunity Cost is what they produce compared with what we could get for their wages. A pair of Cloughie crocks who have yet to produce anything of real worth consistently and then think about what we could get with (no idea what their wages are) a conservative £10k a week combined wages in terms of other players. That's what gets me riled. A year on we are still picking up the tab on Clough and that's ignoring the contracts we had to settle on eg Higdon.

However, what he might also have seen since they returned to pre season is what I have seen. A lazy show pony.
Wilder may well have looked at him and thought....hang on....he's on a massive wage and I am stuck with this fella because no-one will buy him.
He might also have said "how the hell did Adkins hope to make it with players like this in the team"

Alternative version

I'm sorry but my take of it is if we are dependent on Coutts to get out of this division it is only marginally better than being dependent on James Wallace, and not by much . Its grasping at straws. Or maybe Coutts has been on the road to Damascus for his summer holidays. He has had chance after chance and, apart from a couple of games in coming up to 60 games, not delivered. Its competition matches that count not training matches and friendlies. Our midfield needs strengthening - what we have isn't good enough or committed enough.

UTB

 

[dingledog]

I can almost forgive the total lack of actual performance I any objective measure.

Appearing to neither try or care equates to taking us for a ride, in my book.

Brayford has and even more ridiculous, even fatter contract. I've never accused him of taking us for a ride.

UTB

He did try once, Barnsley away two seasons ago, best player on pitch with Kennedy a close second.

My point is though that all of those attributes you want were never there, the ridiculous deals being offered were to players who didn't have those attributes, it was a 'mates gravy train', which thankfully has now hit the buffers.

 

[Champagneblade]

I think Reed is miles away from the team. He hasn't moved on physically and looks very lightweight ,he maybe another who suffered under Adkins year of hell but from what Ive seen of him pre season he looks a bit lost atm.

If we're being ruthless, which Wilder has to be, both Reed and Coutts need to be moved on.

Perhaps with Reed's age you can move him on loan for the year, but as I mentioned in another thread, he needs to decide what sort of midfielder he is going to be:

1. An attacking playmaker. In which case, he needs to start adding goals to his game.
2. A deep lying playmaker. In which case, he needs to strengthen the defensive side to his game.

I'd be looking to send him on loan to a Bury, Oldham etc where he might get a full season under his belt.

For Coutts, he's just technically good but doesn't use this to any real effect. Can he control a high ball with one touch? You bet. But can he then put the ball in the net from distance, get into goalscoring positions and score, lay chance after chance on, tackle and cover his defence? None of the above.

I don't know what position he can occupy which doesn't highlight a deficiency. It seems as a useful tool for us he's finished. Before injuries, perhaps he could have been useful, but clearly Clough brought him in for what he was, not what he is now.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Interesting when a player divides opinion to this extent. I think most would agree that Coutts is

• good technically
• poor defensively
• poor in terms of fitness

Then I think the biggest disagreement is how much he can potentially contribute offensively, and some will be hoping Wilder's arrival will have improved his fitness and attitude

Personally I think his best role is as a deep playmaker with plenty of super-fit runners around him, compensating for what he doesn't do. He's decent at making himself available, can hold on to the ball and find a teammate with an accurate pass. If this is done with a bit of urgency and the teammate is ready to bomb forward, and other players are doing the same off the ball, then Coutts may have started a good move. Under Adkins our tempos was poor and players often stood still and little came from Coutts' playmaking.

Defensively there is less running in this deep role, which is why you sometimes see the odd 38 year old coping there. With two aggressive box to box players next to him, they'd do most of the pressing. Coutts would still have to improve from last season though. His defensive positioning was sloppy, his tackling was poor and he was reluctant to track back and chase. This probably implies a 4-1-4-1 system, which Clough played, but Wilder is likely to choose 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2, and he'd like us to press high up the pitch.

This means we'll have two midfielders who will be required to cover a lot of grass, both pressing high up the pitch and contributing in the last third, and also getting back to help out the defence. It is difficult to see Coutts being able to do this.

An example from a game last season, where Coutts didn't push up, meaning his teammates' pressing was in vain:



Adkins never seemed to see the problem with this, but it is vital in Wilder's playing style, there's no room for passengers who regularly lets teammates down. I think Coutts needs quite a transformation to be able to do the midfield role successfully and adjust to Wilder's demands.

Nice in-depth post as always Bergen. I think I’d be inclined to agree with you about Coutts in the deep lying playmaker role IF he wasn’t so nesh. He shows no bravery or aggression in the tackle and if you can’t run, you need to be able to do that if you’re playing that deep (think Speed/McCall or even Doyle/Hammond).


The only way I can see Coutts contributing is on the right of a fairly narrow midfield 4. That’s where I’ve seen him play his best football (over the xmas period under Adkins). What he does well is looking after the ball long enough to allow others to run into space and then find them. That’s why he had a good relationship with Brayford. When Brayford’s form dipped, Coutts became a complete non-entity again. Their partnership at it’s best is similar to the one Williamson and Lowton had in the 11/12 season. Problem is that Brayford hasn’t been able to find consistency since his injury and when Brayford’s off song, Coutts is awful. Both have a pre-season under their belt so that offers a little hope but I’m still sceptical and would rather we sign and out and out winger to play on the opposite flank to Duffy.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think Reed is miles away from the team. He hasn't moved on physically and looks very lightweight ,he maybe another who suffered under Adkins year of hell but from what Ive seen of him pre season he looks a bit lost atm.

I think the lad needs to go out on loan to a League 2 club to try to get some regular football under his belt. He’s lost his way a bit and needs to gain some confidence and momentum.

 

[Booker4]

Yep coming on on the 92nd minutes. Perhaps to slow the pace down . Wonders will never cease.

UTB

He does that whether its the first minute or the last though!

 

[Davie Blade]

I agree though I think Reed has looked lost since that awful match he played away at Notts County under Clough when he was substituted.

I'd love to see what his stats were for that game.
One of the worst performance I've ever seen from a United player ever. Yes it was that bad. I've had him drug tested.
I tracked him the whole game and it was a litany of missed tackles, lost possession, passing to opponents, failure to control the ball and being caught of position. How the hell Clough left him on suffering like a dying dog for 63 minutes, I'll never know. A total blessing when he was hooked.

 

[Ricky]

The only role I see for Coutts is as part of a deep midfield two in a 4-2-3-1 at home to weaker opponents who don't carry much of a threat. Teams you can afford the odd passenger against. He could help ensure we dominate possession enough to win the game comfortably.
But even then you'd prefer someone alongside him who'd cover ground and do the defensive job, and that's not Fleck's main strength, and that would be Fleck's obvious position in that system.

Agree that Reed should go out on loan.

 

[JohnDenver]

If we're being ruthless, which Wilder has to be, both Reed and Coutts need to be moved on.

Perhaps with Reed's age you can move him on loan for the year, but as I mentioned in another thread, he needs to decide what sort of midfielder he is going to be:

1. An attacking playmaker. In which case, he needs to start adding goals to his game.
2. A deep lying playmaker. In which case, he needs to strengthen the defensive side to his game.

I'd be looking to send him on loan to a Bury, Oldham etc where he might get a full season under his belt.

For Coutts, he's just technically good but doesn't use this to any real effect. Can he control a high ball with one touch? You bet. But can he then put the ball in the net from distance, get into goalscoring positions and score, lay chance after chance on, tackle and cover his defence? None of the above.

I don't know what position he can occupy which doesn't highlight a deficiency. It seems as a useful tool for us he's finished. Before injuries, perhaps he could have been useful, but clearly Clough brought him in for what he was, not what he is now.

I've seen Coutts deliver a few crosses from wide which were of a quality no-one else in our squad can touch.

The trouble is, the only time he gets the ball in those positions is when a freakish set of circumstances combine to allow him time to get up the pitch.

 

[Rupicola]

Just don't think he has it in him, it's sad really, you kind of want him to be good. Saw him against handsworth parramore, it's like he's accepted he's shit. Such a shame you can't put his head on someone else's body.

 

[Barney]

What a load of utter shit about Coutts on this thread.

There are still some that seem to think they're thinking outside the box by rating him. I prefer to go on the evidence as opposed to the hypothetical claptrap that he's going to suddenly start being good enough.

When he's not injured, he has consistently played poorly for the entirety of his period at the club.

That's what the evidence says. He's not good enough and I sincerely hope he leaves the club one way or another.

 

[alcoblade]

Just don't think he has it in him, it's sad really, you kind of want him to be good. Saw him against handsworth parramore, it's like he's accepted he's shit. Such a shame you can't put his head on someone else's body.

What is it about his head you'd like?

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[Foxy]

There are still some that seem to think they're thinking outside the box by rating him. I prefer to go on the evidence as opposed to the hypothetical claptrap that he's going to suddenly start being good enough.

Well either that, or having watched him since he's been at the club and in pre-season, they might simply have a different opinion to you.

It appears to be an opinion shared by a number of professional footballers and at least a couple of managers.

The odds are against Coutts, so it's very easy to pile criticism and negative predictions on him. If Wilder decides to have him in and around the squad, does that mean he'll be wrong too and that he thinks he's thinking out of the box and partaking in hypothetical claptrap?

 

[Barney]

Well either that, or having watched him since he's been at the club and in pre-season, they might simply have a different opinion to you.

It appears to be an opinion shared by a number of professional footballers and at least a couple of managers.

The odds are against Coutts, so it's very easy to pile criticism and negative predictions on him. If Wilder decides to have him in and around the squad, does that mean he'll be wrong too and that he thinks he's thinking out of the box and partaking in hypothetical claptrap?

Yes it will, because he should go on the evidence available - all of which as I said says that he is not good enough.

This is what he went on when he arrived, when he put him on the transfer list. The same method he used when I and many others rightly praised him for releasing and transfer listing all those players.

As someone said the other day if he's having any doubts about his decision on Coutts, he'll soon realise he was right in the first place.

He's unfortunately got it wrong on Scougall for the same reasons, as he will again realise if he makes the mistake of offering him a first team role.

 

[Revolution]

Well either that, or having watched him since he's been at the club and in pre-season, they might simply have a different opinion to you.

It appears to be an opinion shared by a number of professional footballers and at least a couple of managers.

The odds are against Coutts, so it's very easy to pile criticism and negative predictions on him. If Wilder decides to have him in and around the squad, does that mean he'll be wrong too and that he thinks he's thinking out of the box and partaking in hypothetical claptrap?

Yes it will.

They know more than we do, but managers can still be wrong. If you doubt that, think of Dean Hammond and Martyn Woolford.

50 games is not small sample size.

Plus one of the managers who has a high opinion of Coutts is Nigel Clough, who specialises in collecting no goal no assist no tackle midfielders for reasons that escape me.

 

[sheffielder]

Well either that, or having watched him since he's been at the club and in pre-season, they might simply have a different opinion to you.

It appears to be an opinion shared by a number of professional footballers and at least a couple of managers.

The odds are against Coutts, so it's very easy to pile criticism and negative predictions on him. If Wilder decides to have him in and around the squad, does that mean he'll be wrong too and that he thinks he's thinking out of the box and partaking in hypothetical claptrap?

It's easy to pile criticism because of what has gone before. In an ideal world WIlder will find the player in him that a number of professionals and at least a couple of managers see in him, however it really is up to him now.

At this moment in time, there is nothing for people to defend.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Well either that, or having watched him since he's been at the club and in pre-season, they might simply have a different opinion to you.

It appears to be an opinion shared by a number of professional footballers and at least a couple of managers.

The odds are against Coutts, so it's very easy to pile criticism and negative predictions on him. If Wilder decides to have him in and around the squad, does that mean he'll be wrong too and that he thinks he's thinking out of the box and partaking in hypothetical claptrap?

I think it probably means he’s been unsuccessful in shifting him so thinks he’d better try to make some sort of use of him given we aren’t blessed in the wide midfield areas.


He has some attributes that are of use and they’ve been discussed at length. Unfortunately they seem to fail to adequately compensate for his shortcomings meaning he doesn’t represent value for money and is only borderline good enough to be a squad player. Problem is, by all accounts, when he signed it was on good terms with a vision that he would be a key player in the first team. He just hasn’t lived up to the billing bar the odd game.

 

[sheffielder]

Wilder is so impressed, he has kept him on the transfer list admits nobody wants him.