Ched refused right to appeal :(

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The fact is that 12 Joe or Joan public's sat in a courtroom and heard the evidence in great deal and decided evans is guilty. Also the law is clear if a is so drunk that she barely walk she is not able to consent. It may not be a rape that most people imagine such as a woman been dragged into the bushes by a total stranger. I personally think it was rape. Ive not seen the case in great detail but when Evans went into that hotel room he must of know that woman was in no fit state to consent. And finally why did Evans leave via the fire exit? If id just bedded a good looking girl id walk through reception like a peacock in the mating season.
 



I really do not want to comment about our Ched here. But, having sat as a jury member in several both civil & criminal cases here (welcome to America) I could not believe how some of the majority jury members decided a case - as my decision was total opposite to theirs. Again no reflection on Ched, but really people can walk free on murder convictions over here and alot of it is technicallities in submitting evidence which Lawyers have the knowledge/experience.
 
The fact is that 12 Joe or Joan public's sat in a courtroom and heard the evidence in great deal and decided evans is guilty.

And on very similar evidence, decided that McDonald was Not Guilty.

Thats the square that people can`t circle...
 
... the biggest joke of a conviction ever witnessed.

An infinite number of monkeys sat at an infinite number of keyboards for an infinite time could never write anything so fuckwitted as this.
 
And finally why did Evans leave via the fire exit? If id just bedded a good looking girl id walk through reception like a peacock in the mating season.

He's kind of a big deal in Rhyl, people know him, and probably know he's got a well to do, gorgeous girlfriend (the fuckwit). Maybe he just didn't want to be seen leaving the hotel after cheating on her?
 
He's kind of a big deal in Rhyl, people know him, and probably know he's got a well to do, gorgeous girlfriend (the fuckwit). Maybe he just didn't want to be seen leaving the hotel after cheating on her?
Poor lass she probably snogged him when he got home, bad enough for him to eat lettuce with salad cream worse still when it's a mates salad cream.................... :eek: barf barf
 
Gentlemen (and ladies)

I am aware that that are a number of different opinions on this very emotive topic, but please be aware that the forum rules do still apply with regards to debating civilly and refraining from personal abuse. I have issued a number of warnings this morning from a backlog of reported items and some people are really pushing their luck with regards to remaining on this forum.

Many thanks.
 
Gentlemen (and ladies)

I am aware that that are a number of different opinions on this very emotive topic, but please be aware that the forum rules do still apply with regards to debating civilly and refraining from personal abuse. I have issued a number of warnings this morning from a backlog of reported items and some people are really pushing their luck with regards to remaining on this forum.

Many thanks.
It was metalblade's salad cream that was the final straw, wasn't it?
 
Gentlemen (and ladies)

I am aware that that are a number of different opinions on this very emotive topic, but please be aware that the forum rules do still apply with regards to debating civilly and refraining from personal abuse. I have issued a number of warnings this morning from a backlog of reported items and some people are really pushing their luck with regards to remaining on this forum.

Many thanks.

Clearly feeling a bit mellow this morning Linz, no bold text? :)
 
And on very similar evidence, decided that McDonald was Not Guilty.

Thats the square that people can`t circle...

The evidence was not similar that lady met McDonald before hand and decided to go back to his hotel. However ched went to the hotel on his own after a text from a McDonald. That girl had no idea who ched was and what had happend to her till the morning. Why are people so keen to defend a convicted rapist
 
The evidence was not similar that lady met McDonald before hand and decided to go back to his hotel. However ched went to the hotel on his own after a text from a McDonald. That girl had no idea who ched was and what had happend to her till the morning. Why are people so keen to defend a convicted rapist

And thus McDonald had much more time to ascertain if she was in a fit state to consent.

And I'm not defending him, he was a f**king idiot. I am interested in how our justice system works though...
 



She probably was in a fit state to consent when McDonald picked her up
 
Not quite so. As the legal chaps have posted before, if the accused had reasonable belief that consent was given then that's a valid defence.

True, although whether she was capable of consent when he picked her up, shouldn`t have a bearing on whether she was capable when they started.
 
She probably was in a fit state to consent when McDonald picked her up

Not quite so. As the legal chaps have posted before, if the accused had reasonable belief that consent was given then that's a valid defence.

True, although whether she was capable of consent when he picked her up, shouldn`t have a bearing on whether she was capable when they started.

Is there a danger of you lot running consentric rings around one another?
 
Why cant people look beyond the football fan inside them and see that Evans was convicted by a jury of people just like us for rape. Yes he was a good footballer and Yes him going in the nick cost us promotion due to the effect on the squad. But he raped a woman. end of story
 
One of the most interesting aspects in all of this, beyond the obvious question whether the conviction was sound or not, has been how new media like twitter etc. have totally caught the justice system on the wrong foot. The jury system and its near total lack of transparency have worked for years mainly because no-one outside the court room really knows what goes on. People on juries have always told stories about their unpredictability and how some jurors, being a reflection of society at large, are quite simply plonkers who'd struggle to tell their knee from their elbow. Yet in the past, those were anecdotes, and generally you felt that being judged by 12 people off the street offered a fair chance of justice.

With twitter feeding us snippets on an hourly basis, suddenly we are able (or at least think we are able) to double guess and assess cases by ourselves. To an extent, I feel that the system will have to adapt to that.

Also, Ched's appeal now greatly suffers from this lack of transparency as it is difficult to kind of "open up" that black box which is the jury's decision.

Over the past few months I have discussed the case at length with Freiburg Blade who is a German Blade over to see United between five and fifteen times a season. He has been even more surprised at the English justice system and how it compares to what they would do in Germany. Having talked to him, I think a lot of what they do does make sense.

In essence (I may get the details wrong), in Germany Ched's case would be heard by a professional judge and two laymen. The decision would be made by all three of them, not just the laymen. The key difference is that there would be a detailed written judgment. In it, the judge would sum up all the facts how they saw them and spell out the reasons for the conviction in great detail. In other words, a lot of ambiguity is removed as you got the reasoning and what the court considered to be the proven factual sequence of events in black and white. Also, the appeal, although limited to faults in law, is easier to establish as you got the exact story the court held to be true.

No guessing like in Ched's case whether the jury justified their one-off, one-down decision because (a) the girl was considered incapable of consent throughout but Clayton could believe she wasn't whereas Ched had no grounds for such a view or (b) the girl was still able to consent to Clayton but lost it by the time Ched arrived. The written reasons in Germany would contain exactly which of these versions the court held to be correct. And the judge being part of the three-man panel can direct the two laymen at all stages if they look to make irrational conclusions.

I am not suggesting we abolish juries. But there may come a time where the judge - after the jury said guilty or not - might sit down with them and ask them to give him their reasons for the decision in great detail before putting them down in writing for consideration on appeal.

My personal view? I think both could have gone down. I feel slightly confused that the guy who had ages to ascertain that the girl was well out of it, got off and the guy who had a shorter time sample did not. If the jury conclude incapacity on the basis of shortish cctv footage beyond any doubt, how can they then feel that Clayton who was with her for over an hour could possibly misread a state of near-total drunkenness that they felt was apparent as consent to sex?

One can only assume that the jury felt that the human connection between Clayton and the girl swung it irrespective of being drunk.

With half-information from twitter but no real detailed written judgment as such that spells out the jury's exact reasoning, the whole things feels intransparent and like quicksand. I think that is why it won't ever rest easy.

As well as, of course, the underlying premise that if you truly do not know anything the next day, you still proceed with a case of rape, rather than take responsibility for your actions and saying "damn, I bloody overdid it and drank way too much. All sorts might have happened, but I do not and will never know if I did or did not consent - so really it will forever be dodgy if I push this case."

Letting the Crown take that case out of my hands, becoming the unknowing object of case to which I cannot add anything from first-hand memory, sorry, but I could not do that. Because if truth be told, even in the victim's mind there should forever remain some reasonable grain of doubt as to whether what happened was indeed rape or drunken sordid sex due to low standards and lowered inhibitions. But maybe people who engage in that level of drinking and partying on a regular basis do not have this level of self-reflection...

To me, this is what sets the case apart and makes me feel sympathy for Ched even though he acted morally reprehensible and maybe even criminal. All three of them were skating on the thinnest of moral ice, and it has an element of randomness which one of the three fell into the freezing waters.

Sorry for the rather aimless long-winded post and apologies to Freiburg if I misrepresented anything we talked about, not being a lawyer myself. But this has been bothering me for a while.
 
this is a long shot but was anyone at the trial id be intrested in what the atmosphere was like in court and if the victim attend the trial.
 
One of the most interesting aspects in all of this, beyond the obvious question whether the conviction was sound or not, has been how new media like twitter etc. have totally caught the justice system on the wrong foot. The jury system and its near total lack of transparency have worked for years mainly because no-one outside the court room really knows what goes on. People on juries have always told stories about their unpredictability and how some jurors, being a reflection of society at large, are quite simply plonkers who'd struggle to tell their knee from their elbow. Yet in the past, those were anecdotes, and generally you felt that being judged by 12 people off the street offered a fair chance of justice.

An excellent appraisal, ChrisBlade. I can comment on juries from first hand experience. In the case I was involved in (as a juror) one juror was genuinely illiterate. He couldn't read the oath and had to be guided. Around half the jurors contributed nothing to the debate. All they did was vote, and generally accepted the majority view. Consequently the verdict was decided by - at most - half a dozen people who were prepared to air their views. In the end, I think we got it right. Our man was convicted, and when they read out his list of previous convictions, he was clearly a wrong 'un. However, in Ched's case, who knows if the jury did him justice?
 
An infinite number of monkeys sat at an infinite number of keyboards for an infinite time could never write anything so fuckwitted as this.

Care to say why or just act like a dickhead?

Also can people who keep saying he was convicted by a jury and is therefore guilty please pull their heads out of their arses. No one except ched Evans knows if he believed himself to be raping a girl or not. The jury's opinion is simply that, an opinion. How many people that are guilty also get found not guilty?

Finally, within one hour, the jury change their minds from not being able to reach a unanimous decision to reaching one.
Did they just want to go home?

Biggest joke of a conviction of alll time.
 
Care to say why or just act like a dickhead?

Also can people who keep saying he was convicted by a jury and is therefore guilty please pull their heads out of their arses. No one except ched Evans knows if he believed himself to be raping a girl or not. The jury's opinion is simply that, an opinion. How many people that are guilty also get found not guilty?

Finally, within one hour, the jury change their minds from not being able to reach a unanimous decision to reaching one.
Did they just want to go home?

Biggest joke of a conviction of alll time.

Thats wrong on so may levels it doesnt matter diddly squat if Evans believed to be raping that girl. The fact is he did and you cant argue that. Otherwise right now he'd be playing for Leicester or someone instead of sitting in the nick.

Also your doing the jury a massive disservice you don't seriously think the jury convicted him because they wanted to go home do you? Why are people on this forum so keen to defend him. Even if he wasnt sent down he would of pissed of by now
 
One of the most interesting aspects in all of this, beyond the obvious question whether the conviction was sound or not, has been how new media like twitter etc. have totally caught the justice system on the wrong foot. The jury system and its near total lack of transparency have worked for years mainly because no-one outside the court room really knows what goes on. People on juries have always told stories about their unpredictability and how some jurors, being a reflection of society at large, are quite simply plonkers who'd struggle to tell their knee from their elbow. Yet in the past, those were anecdotes, and generally you felt that being judged by 12 people off the street offered a fair chance of justice.

With twitter feeding us snippets on an hourly basis, suddenly we are able (or at least think we are able) to double guess and assess cases by ourselves. To an extent, I feel that the system will have to adapt to that.

Also, Ched's appeal now greatly suffers from this lack of transparency as it is difficult to kind of "open up" that black box which is the jury's decision.

Over the past few months I have discussed the case at length with Freiburg Blade who is a German Blade over to see United between five and fifteen times a season. He has been even more surprised at the English justice system and how it compares to what they would do in Germany. Having talked to him, I think a lot of what they do does make sense.

In essence (I may get the details wrong), in Germany Ched's case would be heard by a professional judge and two laymen. The decision would be made by all three of them, not just the laymen. The key difference is that there would be a detailed written judgment. In it, the judge would sum up all the facts how they saw them and spell out the reasons for the conviction in great detail. In other words, a lot of ambiguity is removed as you got the reasoning and what the court considered to be the proven factual sequence of events in black and white. Also, the appeal, although limited to faults in law, is easier to establish as you got the exact story the court held to be true.

No guessing like in Ched's case whether the jury justified their one-off, one-down decision because (a) the girl was considered incapable of consent throughout but Clayton could believe she wasn't whereas Ched had no grounds for such a view or (b) the girl was still able to consent to Clayton but lost it by the time Ched arrived. The written reasons in Germany would contain exactly which of these versions the court held to be correct. And the judge being part of the three-man panel can direct the two laymen at all stages if they look to make irrational conclusions.

I am not suggesting we abolish juries. But there may come a time where the judge - after the jury said guilty or not - might sit down with them and ask them to give him their reasons for the decision in great detail before putting them down in writing for consideration on appeal.

My personal view? I think both could have gone down. I feel slightly confused that the guy who had ages to ascertain that the girl was well out of it, got off and the guy who had a shorter time sample did not. If the jury conclude incapacity on the basis of shortish cctv footage beyond any doubt, how can they then feel that Clayton who was with her for over an hour could possibly misread a state of near-total drunkenness that they felt was apparent as consent to sex?

One can only assume that the jury felt that the human connection between Clayton and the girl swung it irrespective of being drunk.

With half-information from twitter but no real detailed written judgment as such that spells out the jury's exact reasoning, the whole things feels intransparent and like quicksand. I think that is why it won't ever rest easy.

As well as, of course, the underlying premise that if you truly do not know anything the next day, you still proceed with a case of rape, rather than take responsibility for your actions and saying "damn, I bloody overdid it and drank way too much. All sorts might have happened, but I do not and will never know if I did or did not consent - so really it will forever be dodgy if I push this case."

Letting the Crown take that case out of my hands, becoming the unknowing object of case to which I cannot add anything from first-hand memory, sorry, but I could not do that. Because if truth be told, even in the victim's mind there should forever remain some reasonable grain of doubt as to whether what happened was indeed rape or drunken sordid sex due to low standards and lowered inhibitions. But maybe people who engage in that level of drinking and partying on a regular basis do not have this level of self-reflection...

To me, this is what sets the case apart and makes me feel sympathy for Ched even though he acted morally reprehensible and maybe even criminal. All three of them were skating on the thinnest of moral ice, and it has an element of randomness which one of the three fell into the freezing waters.

Sorry for the rather aimless long-winded post and apologies to Freiburg if I misrepresented anything we talked about, not being a lawyer myself. But this has been bothering me for a while.

Interesting both in content and style. Well written, Chris.
 



Why are people on this forum so keen to defend him. Even if he wasnt sent down he would of pissed of by now

It's irrelevant. Some people are questioning the verdict because they think it's fishy, not because he's an ex-United player. You don't seem to be able to get past that. It is quite possible to accept that he is no longer a United player and in all likelihood would be playing at a different club had he been found innocent, whilst also believing that this verdict might be a bit suspect.
 

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