Back for SOD after relegation?

[oldblade]

We had two and a half good seasons out of 8 under Warnock and he certainly had more funds than SOD up until this year.
He hardly left a footballing legacy that helped us get straight back up like West Brom or Bolton managed did he.
I can see good football and I know that Donny fans can see what SOD's done there.
But this is also much bigger than SOD or Adams, it's about what we're about as a football club, what we're trying to achieve, how we're trying to achieve it.
The club said one thing at the AGM, then did another.
For me, the one thing that the club has a relative strength in at the moment is the academy. Amazingly, that's down to investment and a clear footballing strategy.
Even more amazingly, this relatively simple concept seems beyond McCabe when it comes to where it really matters.

I think you are seeing what you want to see. You couldn't abide Warnock and you have always been unable to prevent that influencing how you viewed the way the team played under him.

He never had any funds of note to work with until the season the 2005-6 season. However, I wiill grant you that the side he inherited was better than the current one. But, he did provide more magical moments at the Lane than we have seen for the vast majority of the last 35 years.

As for footballing legacy, nothing is certain, but even a pessimist like me believes we stood a pretty good chance of going straight back up if he'd remained as manager.

I'm not saying Sean O'Driscoll would have been a bad manager for us. I genuinely have mixed feelings. But I do think Doncaster's footballing abilities are very much over egged by some of those who want him as our manager. That's nothing to do with envy or failing to see good football. It's an honest view based on what I have seen.

 

[lenners]

My honest view is what I have seen of Doncaster both live and on tv and what I saw of us under Warnock.
When it comes to seeing what you want to see, you are very, very obviously forgeting a great deal of what we witnessed under Warnock.
But this isn't really an argument about Warnock, SOD or Adams, it's about what we're trying to achieve as a football club and how we're trying to achieve it.
For me, the club should practise what it preaches and build from it's one position of relative strength.

 

[Deadbat]

Interesting that we will feel able to sack a manager and thereby have to pay him a settlement fee. And yet we don't feel able to keep Adams but allow him sufficient funds to buy players of any quality.

I am not sure I agree with the point about not allowing him sufficent funds to buy players of any quality. Doyle, Collins, Mattock, Bent, Vokes, Lowry, Riise will all be on very decent-significant wages as they are all plied their trade at Prem/Champ level. Sure we will only be paying percentages for some but he has been allowed to bring in 7 players and not one has really improved the side at all. It would have been nice to allow him funds to buy some permanent quality players but that was never gooing to happen. How many Champ sides sign players for large fees permanently these days? Most are bosmans, loans and players brought for small fees from lowe divisions.

His signings have been really poor. Add up all these wages and signings and he could probably have signed 2 or 3 for the combined amount that offered far more.

I still feel he could have brought some young energetic players from the lower divisions who are hungry and want to improve and move on in the game. Most of the above are on the way down or were playing reserve football. We needed pace, hunger and passion and we have got none of that really in the incming players. The likes of Collins and Doyle are now 2 more added to Simonsen, Quinn, Cresswell et al that are on 2-3 yeat contracts that are only going to get worse and worse. They must be laughing their socks off. Easy money really as noone will take them off us and they know they can pick up decent wages for poor performances. Cresswell especially must think it is Christmas every day. He is clearly a league 2 player now and his legs have completely gone but Birch's decision to hand him a 3 year deal was an absoloute nightmare. Give him a season or even 2 at a push (granted he did well last year) but 3 years!!! Ditto for Quinn.

 

[alcoblade]

More hoofball won't work, the game has moved on.

You can repeat that as often as you like, it still isn't true.

That said, I'd like us to move on. But any style of play would be a step forward right now. We really are a nothing team at the moment.

UTB

 

[metty]

My honest view is what I have seen of Doncaster both live and on tv and what I saw of us under Warnock.
When it comes to seeing what you want to see, you are very, very obviously forgeting a great deal of what we witnessed under Warnock.
But this isn't really an argument about Warnock, SOD or Adams, it's about what we're trying to achieve as a football club and how we're trying to achieve it.
For me, the club should practise what it preaches and build from it's one position of relative strength.

I agree entirely with your views regarding the academy and hopefully Sitwells comments about the plans for the club come to fruition. Only time will tell.

 

[lenners]

You can repeat that as often as you like, it still isn't true.

That said, I'd like us to move on. But any style of play would be a step forward right now. We really are a nothing team at the moment.

UTB

The teams in the Prem don't play it, bar one, and the teams at the top of our league don't play it.
I watched a bit of Notts County today and thought they'd beat us because they could keep possession and play.
Either way though, if you're teaching your kids to play a certain way and you want those players to come through, it's common sense to stamp that identity on the club.

 

[alcoblade]

The teams in the Prem don't play it, bar one, and the teams at the top of our league don't play it.
I watched a bit of Notts County today and thought they'd beat us because they could keep possession and play.
Either way though, if you're teaching your kids to play a certain way and you want those players to come through, it's common sense to stamp that identity on the club.

When Wimbledon were at it, who else was? Stoke are just the extreme. But they prove it can work.

None the less, we're in agreement that it's not the future for us. But if Henderson was to regain fitness, I'd play Kozluck for the long throw and do nothing else this season.

UTB

 

[lenners]

When Wimbledon were at it, who else was? Stoke are just the extreme. But they prove it can work.

None the less, we're in agreement that it's not the future for us. But if Henderson was to regain fitness, I'd play Kozluck for the long throw and do nothing else this season.

UTB

Henderson's been a massive loss and I expect the Montster will be a massive loss over the coming weeks.
He's seems to have been five or six weeks away for about six months now.

 

[alcoblade]

Henderson's been a massive loss and I expect the Montster will be a massive loss over the coming weeks.
He's seems to have been five or six weeks away for about six months now.

Aye, forget rolling contracts. We're so "unlucky" we get rolling injuries.



UTB

 

[sitwell]

How ironic that Tony Currie ,arguably our best player over the last 50 years was best known for playing long balls ,not tip tapping around midfield.

 

[lenners]

How ironic that Tony Currie ,arguably our best player over the last 50 years was best known for playing long balls ,not tip tapping around midfield.

He tended to play them directly to players in the same colour shirt though, not just in the general hopeful direction.

 

[oldblade]

My honest view is what I have seen of Doncaster both live and on tv and what I saw of us under Warnock.
When it comes to seeing what you want to see, you are very, very obviously forgeting a great deal of what we witnessed under Warnock.
But this isn't really an argument about Warnock, SOD or Adams, it's about what we're trying to achieve as a football club and how we're trying to achieve it.
For me, the club should practise what it preaches and build from it's one position of relative strength.

I don't forget any of what I witnessed under Warnock. There were bad games. As there are bad games no matter which team you watch. But, during that period for most of the time I came away from matches feeling entertained and that I had watched something worth watching. And, although there were higher and lower points along the way, I also felt that the general trend was a team that was improving and a club that was getting stronger.

Last season, my enjoyment factor had fallen to about 1 in 5 games. This season, there is no pleasure at all.

I think a significant number of people failed to appreciate what we had when Warnock was here and saw the down side in everything he did (you being a primary offender in that regard), when in actual fact supporting our club at that time was more pleasurable than it had been for most of the last 35 years.

But I do agree with you about it now not being about Warnock, Adams or O'Driscoll. Unfortunately I cannot see anything positive in what the club is doing. It has been obvious all season that the squad is poor and we were likely to struggle. As the season has progressed things have got worse, not better. There seems to be no plan at all from the top other than to play in division 3 next season.

 

[lenners]

Sorry OldBlade, there was the odd season here and there which were dreadful under Warnock, not the odd game, and we were getting worse until McCabe loosened the purse strings.
And the best United watching of the last 35 years has been under Bassett by a long way which was also the best managerial achievement.
But, as you say, the main issue is direction and lack of it.
It comes from the top and McCabe really should take a long hard look at what he's done since he thought it was an easy decision to sit back and do eff all after getting his Tevez money.
It's ruined the club, quite possibly setting it back a decade.
He's actually managing to do more damage than the assembled bunch of crooks and non-entities we had previously, which is some achievement.

 

[super_pig]

>How ironic that Tony Currie ,arguably our best player over the last 50 years was best known for playing long balls ,not tip tapping around midfield.
noone took much notice about 5 yard passes then.. they were a given.. it is only recently that it has become apparent that some of our players seem to find even this most basic attribute difficult

 

[oldblade]

Sorry OldBlade, there was the odd season here and there which were dreadful under Warnock, not the odd game, and we were getting worse until McCabe loosened the purse strings.
And the best United watching of the last 35 years has been under Bassett by a long way which was also the best managerial achievement.
But, as you say, the main issue is direction and lack of it.
It comes from the top and McCabe really should take a long hard look at what he's done since he thought it was an easy decision to sit back and do eff all after getting his Tevez money.
It's ruined the club, quite possibly setting it back a decade.
He's actually managing to do more damage than the assembled bunch of crooks and non-entities we had previously, which is some achievement.

I didn't say Warnock provided the only pleasure on offer over the last 35 years, I said he made watching United more pleasurable than for most of the last 35 years.

I agree that Bassett provided some great moments as well, but it has to be said that (as with most other managers and clubs) there were also some pretty poor periods under him as well. One being the 1993-4 season when we failed to score 16 times, won only 8 matches and botteld the last game of the season (as we did against Wigan under Warnock, Walsall under Peters and Chelsea under Harris). There were also other less than enjoyable moments.

The only Warnock serason that I remember being pretty poor from start to finish was 2001-2, when we bumped along in lower midtable for most of the season just steering clear of the relegation dogfight. Buit even that season did have some highlights, for example the emergence of Tonge and Jagielka, who towards the end of that season bossed and out footballed a Burnely midfield that included Paul Gascoigne.

Warnock is often castigated for his allegedly negative away tactics. Well, in the 5 seasons from 2001-2 until 2005-6 we won 46 away league games, an average of just over 9 per season. And we accumulated 167 away points, at an average of just over 33 per season. I may be wrong, but I can't think of any other post war manager who has achieved that level of away success over that length of time.

But I guess we'll never agree on the merits or otherwise of Neil warnock. And, even though we still argue about it, it is all history now, and the current problem is the lack of any kind of apparent leadership of the club.

Maybe things are going on that we don't know about and I'll have to eat humble pie. I sincerely hope so. But from where I'm standing the only plan seems to have been to sell off all our best players and hope that it all comes right in the end. The quality of replacements has been getting poorer and poorer, and (to paraphrase someone - Alan Ball?) if you sign 3rd division players, that's where you end up. And that is where we will be playing next season.

However, I am already worried about next season. This squad will not hold it's own in division 3, and I think it might even struggle in division 4.

 

[lenners]

Afraid I agree with you oldblade.
Seen some impressive stuff from the likes of Notts County and Orient who aren't even in the top six and both look capable of beating us comfortably like Hartlepool did earlier this season.
With Wednesday likely to be sorted out - and I still think they've an outside chance of making it this season - it could be the mother of all embarrassing seasons.

 

[Ollessendro]

I think that this thread was probably the usual mixture of a clever, half tongue in cheek, find a niche, wind up Lenners post. However I think it deserves bringing back to the top. Perhaps the debate has been had, but now is surely the time that we will be looking for a new manager (from May at least) and hence why not learn from our mistakes.

In another thread sothall asked, who should be next. Many are saying Pembo (and I would not be averse to that) but I think it should be SOD. Adams is surely not the man to take us forward and build a squad in League One. Let us give it to somone who knowzs what he is doing. He has built a squad on next to nowt with Donny. We knew he was interested. Birch/McCabe, ad,it you got it wrong, and go in for SOD.

 

[lenners]

Problem is McCabe can't admit he's been wrong.
He ran away when the going got tough having secured the Tevez money. He's sadly let everyone down including himself but I doubt he'll see it or care.
We desperately need someone at the club to show that the hierarchy actually cares.

 

[Micalijo]

Seen as it is back on top, I'll gently remind you all that SOD wanted to come, Birchy wanted him and McCabe said no.

 

[lenners]

And let's face it, the blank sheet of paper for a manager like SOD to start working from has just got a hell of a lot blanker.

 

[Foxy]

Worth doing on form alone, I mean look at their records since we appointed:

Micky's played 19, won 2, drawn 4 and lost 13
SOD has played 21, won 2, drawn 6 and lost 13

Clear gulf in class

 

[yorkshirecoast]

Adams is clearly not up to it but SOD is certainly not the answer either.

And to be honest, as long as we have McCabe at the club it doesn't really matter who the manager is.

 

[DronnieBlade]

A major overall is required.

Our external perception as a club is woeful.

Our internal culture is neanderthal.

SOD could well be the man and we can then take the honorary title of the Arsenal of division 3 !

Suffice to say I am on board with this.

 

[bladesadviser]

Its a young mans job next time, by that I don't mean a no experience man like Speed but someone like de Matteo or even Chris Wilder. Even if its not a young manager O'Driscoll is not the answer, if you are looking for someone who has performed miracles get the bloke in from Accrington. There is a man who does know how to operate on a small budget, well nil actually and as someone mentioned on another thread has improved year on year

 

[sothall blade]

Worth doing on form alone, I mean look at their records since we appointed:

Micky's played 19, won 2, drawn 4 and lost 13
SOD has played 21, won 2, drawn 6 and lost 13

Clear gulf in class

o,driscoll ! no no no no no no :thumbdown:

 

[BrianDeanesSon]

I did want O'Driscoll but since that kicked off around Christmas Donny have been in free-fall

 

[Deadbat]

Adams

Worth doing on form alone, I mean look at their records since we appointed:

Micky's played 19, won 2, drawn 4 and lost 13
SOD has played 21, won 2, drawn 6 and lost 13

Clear gulf in class

Erm, does that mean everything he did before that (earlier in the season) does not matter? Donny still have done well to stay up and whilst they will have been disappointed with the freefall I would compare the two playing budgets/crowds/infrastructure etc/

However, the arguement of SOD v Adams is gone now really as we had a chance to appoint him and blew it. I dont think mamy actually think he would have done any worse than Adams but we have moved on now. Maybe the next appointment we may get it right but on McCabe's track record over the last 4 then the odds say he won't.

Astonishingly many are still backing Adams as the manager for the forseeable future and whilst I am sick of chopping and changing he has shown me prety much nothing in his tenure that suggest he can mould a team from his recruitment, tactics, shape, style, formations etc. We have not scored goals and continued to let them in. I see nothing in what he has done to suggerst he can halt an even bigger slide. Of course the problem is awy beyond Adams and at boardroom level but with no money, crowds dwindling and confidence at an all time low we need a man at gthe helm that can inspire, coach and get the best out of players next season and the manager is going to be all so important.

If we had not had Bassett in charge in the late 80's I fear we would have gone further down the leagues then and it was only his wheeling and dealing (sold Beagrie/Kuhl etc and brought in some cheap gems) and tactics that got us out of the division. Adams has had 1-2 years in the lower leagues but saw noone of note we could sign who added pace/energy? Marcus Bent was the best he could do. I fear what kind of signings he will make if he is around in the summer.

As I said in my report though the general malaise around the club and the fact he will do whatever the board says (another yes man) suggests he will be kept on for the start of the next season. If results continued surely his position by October would be completely untenable. For whats it worth I think it is now but I do agree he is only a tinor part of what is wrong. I think many players (Simonsen, cresswell, Yeates etc) also should be relieve of their duties but often it is much harder to terminate players than managers and the manager has the power to change so much.

 

[Houso]

Time to let the investment that we made 10 years ago take over the ethos of the club. And also to wave good bye to percentage football which got us one year in the top league despite substantial investment.

Plan long term, reap short term if lucky.

 

[Foxy]

Erm, does that mean everything he did before that (earlier in the season) does not matter? Donny still have done well to stay up and whilst they will have been disappointed with the freefall I would compare the two playing budgets/crowds/infrastructure etc/

Not at all

But if we are comparing the two directly, surely we have to go on whatever we can fairly compare?

If we were going on the past, Micky Adams has a few promotions under his hat.

I don't think Micky Adams is a yes man in the slightest, I don't even think he listens to all the advice he asks for

 

[Houso]

Not at all

But if we are comparing the two directly, surely we have to go on whatever we can fairly compare?

If we were going on the past, Micky Adams has a few promotions under his hat.

I don't think Micky Adams is a yes man in the slightest, I don't even think he listens to all the advice he asks for

Surely it's fair to be a little pragmatic about it though Foxy.

Micky has come in, been given some room to improve the squad. Had the traditional period when a manager wins a good number of games. But has won two in total and made us a much worse side. Yes, there have been injuries and some bad luck, but from a position where we'd be confident in staying up, we're all but down with a handful of games to play.

SoD has performed wonders at Donny and has made them a solid Championship side. They've had a drop in form since he was known to be interested in the vacant role that Adams got, but is nevertheless keeping a side with a very low wage bill in this league and playing generally good football in the process.