Are fans starting to side with the Prince over CW?

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Sean Thornton

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If claiming the upgrade of the training facilities is one of the broken promises you have to be pretty dumb not to understand why that hasn’t happened. COVID, drop in income. It’s hardly as big a stick to beat the Prince with as someone seem to think. I mean, I’m sure some shiny new training facilities would have altered the performances on some of our players on Matchday.

l also read somewhere about the poles still being on the Kop. I believe they were there when Kev arrived the club, and were still there when he left.
 

benn5712

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JTW loans, as long as they were ready and able, would have been the thing to do in my opinion. Still a slim chance then of beating the drop then.
 

SilkyBlade

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If claiming the upgrade of the training facilities is one of the broken promises you have to be pretty dumb not to understand why that hasn’t happened. COVID, drop in income. It’s hardly as big a stick to beat the Prince with as someone seem to think. I mean, I’m sure some shiny new training facilities would have altered the performances on some of our players on Matchday.

l also read somewhere about the poles still being on the Kop. I believe they were there when Kev arrived the club, and were still there when he left.
Sorry ST not sure I agree with that...

PL money £130M last year, £100M this year (Norwich got £96M last season) then drops to c£55M (55%), £45M (45%) and £20M (20%). Add in match day, sponsorship, advertising revenue and EFL broadcasting money looking at c£450M over 5yr period. COVID cost estimated to be c£20M. Ground Infrastructure costs £43.5M. £20M 2019 loss due to bonuses. Paying lowest wages in PL (first team squad c£19M) and net player purchases at c£112M means plenty left to deliver training pitches etc as have facility to draw down future revenue.
 

nopigfansintown

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£10-15m spent on players in the 2-3 seasons before we even got to the Prem.

Compared to about £2-3m spent by McCabe in his last 10-15 years.

Brooks 11.5 million

Calvert Lewin: 2 million

Evans: 1.1 million

Leonard: 1.4 million.

Maguire: 2.5 million

Adams: 2 million

Ramsdale: 1 million.

Kyle Walker sell on clause: 5 million.

FA Cup and League Cup semi Final money.

All bills were shared 50/50 after the Clough seasons and the expiration of the share agreement. Club essentially run on fumes and player sales.


Sizeable investments under Wilder pre Premier League:

Lundstram: 700k

Egan: 3.5 million:

Norwood: 1.2 million.

Evans: 500k

Leonard: 750k.

A number of players for a few hundred grand.


Sizeable investments pre Wilder:

Brayford: 2 million.
 

steve26272

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JTW loans, as long as they were ready and able, would have been the thing to do in my opinion. Still a slim chance then of beating the drop then.
Tricky one this

Had we brought in 3 or 4 top draw players, they may have driven the club with a "European push" form and dragged us out of the mire.
Problem is, who was willing to come in, and what difference would THEY have made

Messi, Ronaldo, Alison and Aguero probably

The lads we would have attracted would have been deemed not good enough at their present club, why would a regular first teamer move from their home, mates and family to join in a 20/80% survival battle

Lingard, Shaquiri, Gilmour - all would have helped, non would have come

If you were the manager of the loaning team, and you were approached by the Blades, would you let any of your lads go, who were any good or you cared about?
 
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SilkyBlade

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Tricky one this

Had we brought in 3 or 4 top draw players, they may have driven the club with a "European push" form and dragged us out of the mire.
Problem is, who was willing to come in, and what difference would THEY have made

Messi, Ronaldo, Alison and Aguero probably

The lads we would have attracted would have been deemed not good enough at their present club, why would a regular first teamer move from their home, mates and family to join in a 20/80% survival battle

Lingard, Shaquiri, Gilmour - all would have helped, non would have come

If you were the manager of the loaning team, and you were approached by the Blades, would you let any of your lads go, who were any good or you cared about?
Agree if you’re trying to save your season in JTW somethings gone wrong in the Summer TW and that is exactly what’s happened
 

nopigfansintown

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If claiming the upgrade of the training facilities is one of the broken promises you have to be pretty dumb not to understand why that hasn’t happened. COVID, drop in income. It’s hardly as big a stick to beat the Prince with as someone seem to think. I mean, I’m sure some shiny new training facilities would have altered the performances on some of our players on Matchday.

l also read somewhere about the poles still being on the Kop. I believe they were there when Kev arrived the club, and were still there when he left.

The new building was promised in July (when we were in lockdown, and likely to be for a long time) for a January completion fate. Essentially built off site and dropped into Shirecliffe to avoid contact and disruption. I see no reason that a relatively modest project like that couldn't be completed despite Covid: https://www.sufc.co.uk/news/2020/july/shirecliffe-addition/

I've seen no further reference to this from the club since the original announcement. The Kop Pole removal project was iced due to "logistics problems due to Covid". There has been further reference to this in matchday programmes, suggesting it is a delayed, not abandoned project. We wait with baited breath...
 
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Sean Thornton

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The new building was promised in July (when we were in lockdown, and likely to be for a long time) for a January completion fate. Essentially built off site and dropped into Shirecliffe to avoid contact and disruption. I see no reason that a relatively modest project like that couldn't be completed despite Covid: https://www.sufc.co.uk/news/2020/july/shirecliffe-addition/

I've seen no further reference to this from the club since the original announcement. The Kop Pole removal project was iced due to "logistics problems due to Covid". There has been further reference to this in matchday programmes, suggesting it is a delayed, not abandoned project. We wait with baited breath...

COVID has been ongoing, do you not think that’s been a reason for holding off?

With regard to the poles, l believed you listed what the Prince had failed to achieve ground wise as opposed to what Kevin McCabe had. How many plans were published showing various upgrades etc? I never criticised Kev for putting them on hold because it was never financially viable. The latest sojourn into the PL was affected by COVID, we needed to strengthen the team - something else that clearly hasn’t happened - cover £20m of losses from the previous year and SUFC has bought the ground etc back. Not ideal l know but we knew that the Prince didn’t have Abramovich type funds.

I think you said early March, you wouldn’t yet Judge the Prince. That’s clearly changed.
 

nopigfansintown

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COVID has been ongoing, do you not think that’s been a reason for holding off?

With regard to the poles, l believed you listed what the Prince had failed to achieve ground wise as opposed to what Kevin McCabe had. How many plans were published showing various upgrades etc? I never criticised Kev for putting them on hold because it was never financially viable. The latest sojourn into the PL was affected by COVID, we needed to strengthen the team - something else that clearly hasn’t happened - cover £20m of losses from the previous year and SUFC has bought the ground etc back. Not ideal l know but we knew that the Prince didn’t have Abramovich type funds.

I think you said early March, you wouldn’t yet Judge the Prince. That’s clearly changed.

I think the decision is inextricably linked to league position not Covid. The plans were made to navigate Covid, during Covid times. Judgement is an ongoing process; thus far, not particularly impressed but always prepared to change my opinion. When the facts change...
 

Sean Thornton

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I think the decision is inextricably linked to league position not Covid. The plans were made to navigate Covid, during Covid times. Judgement is an ongoing process; thus far, not particularly impressed but always prepared to change my opinion. When the facts change...

Without knowing how long Covid times would last or the ongoing financial effects? That doesn’t make sense , business wise.

League position. That’s was likely to change a lot of things if you think about it. I still wish CW was still here, but capable of maybe accepting the bigger picture. I am surprised at some of the vitriol towards him though. Anyone thinking 100% blame applies to one side or the other is fooling themselves though.
 

benn5712

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Tricky one this

Had we brought in 3 or 4 top draw players, they may have driven the club with a "European push" form and dragged us out of the mire.
Problem is, who was willing to come in, and what difference would THEY have made

Messi, Ronaldo, Alison and Aguero probably

The lads we would have attracted would have been deemed not good enough at their present club, why would a regular first teamer move from their home, mates and family to join in a 20/80% survival battle

Lingard, Shaquiri, Gilmour - all would have helped, non would have come

If you were the manager of the loaning team, and you were approached by the Blades, would you let any of your lads go, who were any good or you cared about?
None the less, more time to have a reyt go in January. Besic back in, try not to make the card count higher than the body count.
Certainly short term mercenaries, but then that's management and leadership. Survive and the loans have plenty brownie badges.
We're done for now.
 

Sean Thornton

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Sorry ST not sure I agree with that...

PL money £130M last year, £100M this year (Norwich got £96M last season) then drops to c£55M (55%), £45M (45%) and £20M (20%). Add in match day, sponsorship, advertising revenue and EFL broadcasting money looking at c£450M over 5yr period. COVID cost estimated to be c£20M. Ground Infrastructure costs £43.5M. £20M 2019 loss due to bonuses. Paying lowest wages in PL (first team squad c£19M) and net player purchases at c£112M means plenty left to deliver training pitches etc as have facility to draw down future revenue.


My post was about the failure to build this season. The five years calcs are nothing to do with that. The Covid effect of £20m may have tipped the scales for now.

Btw, £19m for first team squad PL wages? Is that a genuine figure?

How much annual profit ? How much outward cashflow on transfer fees owing, property loans etc, each year?
 

The Bear

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If claiming the upgrade of the training facilities is one of the broken promises you have to be pretty dumb not to understand why that hasn’t happened. COVID, drop in income. It’s hardly as big a stick to beat the Prince with as someone seem to think. I mean, I’m sure some shiny new training facilities would have altered the performances on some of our players on Matchday.

l also read somewhere about the poles still being on the Kop. I believe they were there when Kev arrived the club, and were still there when he left.
Must be die hard fans from Katowice.
 

Hamburg Blade

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The situation of losing Wilder has actually made me very worried about the owner and the board, whereas I was quite upbeat about the Prince's take-over of the club up till now.
I am very disappointed at Wilder's decision to leave, as I can't see how he needed to take that step, but I accept that I don't know the background to it. I've been in enough jobs myself where I just couldn't bear to be there anymore, even though others may have thought I had a good job and was doing well for myself.

But undoubtedly the board could have kept Wilder had they wanted to. He hasn't resigned because he doesn't think he's good enough or because he doesn't want to manage Sheffield United anymore, I'm pretty sure of that. His decision was linked with problems with the board, otherwise he would have made various statements about an amicable parting.

He also isn't a manager who is frivolous with the club's money, so whatever it is that he wanted, I find it hard to believe he couldn't have been given it.
People seem to see it as Wilder vs the Prince, but I suspect it's Wilder vs the board, our age-old problem. The Prince doesn't seem to be around much, in fact he seems more involved buying clubs around the world and setting up his new sporting empire. Yes he's in charge overall, but the board are the day-to-day contact with Wilder and its make-up doesn't fill me with confidence.

We saw how the Prince and his people could be nasty, ruthless and manipulative during the court case, but we tended not to dwell on it because McCabe and his people were nastier, underhand and incompetent, leaving most of us baffled and shaking our heads. After the Prince won, he made the right noises about Wilder, the ground and the club in general, it reassured me - of course we were all desperate to believe we'd found the owner we'd all been longing for.
However, let's not forget the side we saw during the court case. If Wilder has had to put up with even a fraction of the stuff that had been going on between the Prince's people and McCabe's people, it would have sucked the joy out of the job at a time when there was little joy left.

Yes, I'm a "fan of Sheffield United and not a fan of Chris Wilder", as some people seem to think is some kind of mind-blowing revelation they have to announce, but when I see the manager I think is best for Sheffield United leaving because of problems with the board, I'm inclined to blame the board more than anyone else, because I am certainly not a "fan of the board" or "a fan of the Prince".
 

Niceguyeddie

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No - just look at the Poll!

Poll doesn't mention the Prince
 

blade_ben

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Where is the 10-15m spent before we got in the premier league? We purchased Eagan and Norwood both signed on the back of players sales. McCabe was also part control of the club in the years running up to the premier league.
I’m not saying KMc was god but you do realise we were in league 1 for 6 years don’t you? How could we spend millions while being in that division?
Is it me or are people just rewriting history to try and back up their argument?
Do you seem to forget we signed Brayford for 2 million in league one?
 

Robboblade1889

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Do you seem to forget we signed Brayford for 2 million in league one?
And McCabe was also in part control of the club when we spent that money (which was a huge mistake as it turned out). So I am not sure what your point is.
 

SilkyBlade

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My post was about the failure to build this season. The five years calcs are nothing to do with that. The Covid effect of £20m may have tipped the scales for now.

Btw, £19m for first team squad PL wages? Is that a genuine figure?

How much annual profit ? How much outward cashflow on transfer fees owing, property loans etc, each year?
I was hoping the latest set of accounts would be published (March) for the first PL season hence my very basic analysis but they have changed the reporting period so won’t have a lot of the answers we need until probably November and even then not easy to decipher as I hope actual profits will be reduced through internal mgt charges etc to mitigate against tax liabilities. They can also carry forward the ‘19 £20M loss.

I’ve taken the wages from a number of separate sources which detail length of contracts, wages etc and taken an average as all won’t be correct. Their own sources of info are agents as it’s in their interest to know the marketplace for their own clients when negotiating terms. Certain aspects are validated by McB’s court docs etc. It won’t be miles away.

Macquarie Bank are the go to guys for the PL teams. It’s deemed very low risk lending supported by the fact that despite a huge economic shock the PL juggernaut rolls on. Margins tend to vary between 1.5% and 3% above Base rate. If you drawdown say £75M in summer ‘20 (£43.5M for assets and say1/4 of reported transfer fees with residual amortised over average 4yr contract) and repay in May ‘20 following receipt of PL money annual interest likely to be c£1.7Mpa.

The simple point I was making is that we can’t have it both ways. We can’t argue no money left,
and need to sell if we have taken the riches whilst paying the lowest wages.
 

Sean Thornton

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I was hoping the latest set of accounts would be published (March) for the first PL season hence my very basic analysis but they have changed the reporting period so won’t have a lot of the answers we need until probably November and even then not easy to decipher as I hope actual profits will be reduced through internal mgt charges etc to mitigate against tax liabilities. They can also carry forward the ‘19 £20M loss.

I’ve taken the wages from a number of separate sources which detail length of contracts, wages etc and taken an average as all won’t be correct. Their own sources of info are agents as it’s in their interest to know the marketplace for their own clients when negotiating terms. Certain aspects are validated by McB’s court docs etc. It won’t be miles away.

Macquarie Bank are the go to guys for the PL teams. It’s deemed very low risk lending supported by the fact that despite a huge economic shock the PL juggernaut rolls on. Margins tend to vary between 1.5% and 3% above Base rate. If you drawdown say £75M in summer ‘20 (£43.5M for assets and say1/4 of reported transfer fees with residual amortised over average 4yr contract) and repay in May ‘20 following receipt of PL money annual interest likely to be c£1.7Mpa.

The simple point I was making is that we can’t have it both ways. We can’t argue no money left,
and need to sell if we have taken the riches whilst paying the lowest wages.

The accounts have to be filed at Companies House by 30th June. Due to historical losses it’s highly unlikely there will be any tax to mitigate. Not sure how you think management charges would be necessary or relevant?

What do you think the wages bill will be currently?

There is a charge against the Land etc from an Emirates bank as well.

What does amortisation have to do with paying tranfer fees due? If the agreement is over four equal instalments it’s one quarter of the fee. That’s cashflow, not affecting the P&L.

Set up fees for funding could cost a few quid as well.
 

EddieColquhoun

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Paying lowest wages in PL (first team squad c£19M) and net player purchases at c£112M means plenty left to deliver training pitches etc as have facility to draw down future revenue.
From our accounts, our wages were £19.6 m in 17/18 and £41.2m in 18/19 (both in the Championship).
 

SilkyBlade

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The accounts have to be filed at Companies House by 30th June. Due to historical losses it’s highly unlikely there will be any tax to mitigate. Not sure how you think management charges would be necessary or relevant?

What do you think the wages bill will be currently?

There is a charge against the Land etc from an Emirates bank as well.

What does amortisation have to do with paying tranfer fees due? If the agreement is over four equal instalments it’s one quarter of the fee. That’s cashflow, not affecting the P&L.

Set up fees for funding could cost a few quid as well.
My guess is that current total club wage bill will be around £40M level. It’s interesting to note Norwich wage bill was £88M last season in the PL!

Facility arrangement fees likely to be between 0.5% and 1%.
 

SilkyBlade

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From our accounts, our wages were £19.6 m in 17/18 and £41.2m in 18/19 (both in the Championship).
Yes that’s correct. I was referring to the First Team squad wages only at £19mpa. There are c200 employees at the club. The 18/19 increase is due to large promotion bonuses paid to the players and the loan fees of Madine/Hogan and Dowell.
 

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