A defence of the players

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Strange I can have some sympathy with Bergen Blade yet at the same time I have to agree with Deadbat different viewpoints but both good views.
I think the biggest contributor to our fall from grace has been Chris Wilder's stubbornness and his flat refusal to change system. In 2020 you could see some teams were coming to terms with our 3-5-2 and overlapping centre backs, the first lockdown only made things worse when we came back we looked very unfit compared to other teams. A few good results namely Chelsea, Spurs and Wolves masked the fact we were being found out and other managers had worked out how to stop us playing.
This season we again came back looking way off the pace fitness wise and the loss of JOC was huge we had no one at the club who could fill that role, to me Wilder should have changed formation after half a dozen games to a back four rather than try Robinson Bryan Stevens or Ampadu all the swapping and changes did nothing to help the players. Our formation had become 5-3-2 with our wing backs seldom getting forward most noticable on our left where we tried Stevens, Lowe and Osborn with no real success Fleck wasn't ever fully fit and badly out of form too which didn't help yet our only cover was at Forest.
There are certain players at the club who either don't want to be here or their form has nose dived a few of them are certainly not putting the effort in Lundstram and Mousette spring to mind. I can't be too hard on the forwards every game they are isolated and feeding of scraps we moan about missed chances but when you only make one or two each game it is critical. Bamford at Leeds is banging goals in but he is missing loads of chances too but they can afford to miss chances when they make loads every game.
I really hope we keep our good players who are under 25yr old they are our future but we have a lot now getting to the wrong side of 30 some are good enough for another year some need to be shown the door with the players who clearly will not be good enough for a promotion push. I really hope the new manager is ruthless, no room for sentiment or bladey bladeness. Hopefully he will have his own team too another area of the club that needs a full clear out.
 

Hamburg Blade said:
Good post Bergen Blade and some good points, but I think that's possibly over analysing it. My view is just that too many fans can't accept that we don't have a team that is good enough for the PL and that this season is more or less what neutrals expected us to do last season. Last season now looks to have been some kind of miracle working, by manager and players alike, but it's given some fans the idea that it would have been a piece of piss to stay up comfortably this season - with a tweak here, a different player there, a different formation, etc.

My personal opinion is that the inclusion of some of the new signings as first-on-the-teamsheet when they weren't performing, particularly McBurnie, but also Berge last season, has been a major contribution, but there are plenty of other mistakes that can be pointed at - not replacing O'Connell, not reviewing the wage policy, not bringing in players that would enable different formations. Ramsdale replacing Henderson was a factor, but I don't think there was much we could do about that one.

It's all very subjective and too easy for people to assert with 100% certainty now that everything has collapsed what the reasons were, but I don't blame any individual or single event. Injuries have been devastating, no crowds undoubtedly a factor, but overall I think we simply saw the fragility of what gave us our best season in decades and I don't think anyone could have predicted just how fragile it was, even though many accepted we weren't likely to repeat the season's success.

The biggest disappointment for me is not relegation, or even the manner of relegation, it's the way so many have turned on the players and manager, the finger pointing, the blame game, the way the last few seasons are wiped away in anger at the current disaster. Anyone who knows nothing about it coming on to this forum for the first time would think that Wilder was the worst manager we've ever had and most of the players are dross that everyone is embarrassed about and no one wants to see at the club.
When people talk about the fans being the club, for me that doesn't speak well about our club, so yes I'm very willing to cut the players some slack because the big picture tells a different story.
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I think we should have gone for an experienced keeper , Foster with Ramsdale as his number 2 , we should have replaced JOC from the off , I think this was a critical mistake
I also thought we should have got Deeney in as well , a dirty , rough as fuck up top , penalty winner to bring on the Young uns , on a one years contract imagine the experience he could have given to Brewster and McBurnie
I don’t think it would have taken too much money -wages for what we needed
But going all on red and it being black didn’t help
 
dublin 10 blade said:
I think we should have gone for an experienced keeper , Foster with Ramsdale as his number 2 , we should have replaced JOC from the off , I think this was a critical mistake
I also thought we should have got Deeney in as well , a dirty , rough as fuck up top , penalty winner to bring on the Young uns , on a one years contract imagine the experience he could have given to Brewster and McBurnie
I don’t think it would have taken too much money -wages for what we needed
But going all on red and it being black didn’t help
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I agree in terms of recruitment - the fees paid for Brewster/Ramsdale should have been diverted towards wages for Prem experience like Deeney/Foster.
I was also pushing for us to take a punt on Ivan Toney and in hindsight I can't see that this would have been any less successful than Burke/Brewster (how could it be!).
Not replacing JOC was a massive mistake if we knew the extent of the injury. At the very least, Ampadu should have been given this role from the start of the season.
Failure to get John Swift over the line was another mistake, and then to not identify any other midfield targets was madness (especially given the Lundstram contract situation)
 
Swannyblade said:
I agree in terms of recruitment - the fees paid for Brewster/Ramsdale should have been diverted towards wages for Prem experience like Deeney/Foster.
I was also pushing for us to take a punt on Ivan Toney and in hindsight I can't see that this would have been any less successful than Burke/Brewster (how could it be!).
Not replacing JOC was a massive mistake if we knew the extent of the injury. At the very least, Ampadu should have been given this role from the start of the season.
Failure to get John Swift over the line was another mistake, and then to not identify any other midfield targets was madness (especially given the Lundstram contract situation)
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100% agree , some very gettable targets were missed ,
about the midfielders we need a bit more speed and aggression , and not to get at least 1 body in was a bad decision , that QPR guy that went to palace , who’s name escapes me I thought we should have spent the money on , Ezzy ?
JOCinjury must have been know early doors , and a failure to bring in a suitable replacement border lined on the negligent ,
Because in all honesty Robinson/KB or Jags aren’t good enough now ( in Jags case ) for a long run in the team against the opponents we would face every week
But only limiting yourself to named targets , let pool and Bournemouth to bump up the prices for the players we needed
It wouldn’t have needed much to do what we needed but we bought for tomorrow without securing our today
 
Sorry guys. I don't get it. Some are saying the formation is not an issue. We scored fuck all goals last season but defended well. This season both ends have been poor. Yes I know that through injuries we are not pushing on and overlapping like we used to. Yes I know some players like Basham are only suited to the system. Yes I know midfield has been wank.

But have a look at what we are doing on the pitch. We go wide with the ball early and stay working down that side until we get a cross in. Of course we are so slow this season all defenders are back in position. Now look at how many times our midfield carries the ball forward and looks to slide a ball through for a forward. It is rare.

On the defensive side. Take a look at how teams are starting us. It's with pace and with some variety. And quite a bit of the time they attack more centrally as in moving to the box with the ball rather than the corner flag.

Now these guys are paid professionals or unprofessionals on one or two cases. They have grown up playing in different formations to the one we habe now. So saying we can't change it due to the players we have is not correct in my view.

Last season we were new and unpredictable for other teams. They have done their home work and we have decided to entrench our selves even more. We need a bit of variety and adaptability in our play. I just wish Heck would be bold and set up differently and have a go at teams.
 
Good, well measured post, Bergen Blade .

The only point I'm not really on board with is the being found out aspect.

Man City have a certain way of playing but if I systematically remove their key players and replace them with players from Birmingham and Fleetwood, you can't tell me that after a few replacements the end result isn't going to be heavily impacted. I think it is far more down to us being unable to play to the same levels with less suitable players.

I'd say this was the issue with us. With a fully fit squad, I think we would have maybe finished 14th. Lockdown should have done us a favour. It was patently obvious after lockdown that there was nobody who could match O'Connell's physical prowess, ball carrying and athleticism. Having already dispatched Duffy, the main means by which we were able to probe through the middle, and largely gotten away with it, we were now also ineffective on one of the flanks too.

We should have simply parked 3-5-2 with a note saying revisit once Jack O'Connell is fit.

Wilder should have then taken a fresh look at what remained and come up with a new Plan A. He didn't. He just kept looking for the next Jack O'Connell, blamed the Board when he couldn't find one and they couldn't sign one.

The recruitment just padded out the squad. For all talk of wages and the like, he could have just added a couple of starters and relegated some mainstays down the pecking order.

He seemed intent on not upsetting Norwood (or Lundstram) who has got progressively worse whilst failing to acknowledge Berge's best role. But then again, he could have played both together if he'd been open to changing formation and also been flexible enough to allow 2 right footers to play CM or 2 left footers to do the same if needed.

What I find bizarre is he played 4-2-3-1 successfully at Northampton. Without any imagination whatsoever, he could have picked this with players he had already:

Keeper
Baldock Basham Egan Stevens
Norwood Berge
Robinson McGoldrick Fleck
McBurnie

He still would have had Mousset and Sharp to back up the 1 striker role.

He would have had Freeman to support McGoldrick and Fleck, Lundstram and Osborn to support midfield.

I think Bryan is better suited as left back where his crossing is better used and he's less exposed centrally. You have Jags as back up.

He'd have had a need for Bogle to cover full back perhaps but loan keeper aside he could have played that formation. If he was desperate to do the Burke/Robinson deal, that formation suits Burke far better. If he wanted depth Ampadu could have played alongside Egan instead of Basham.

Didn't really need to lavish 24m on Brewster, 3-4m on Lowe and I still argue given covid etc, Ramsdale was a big outlay and a loan would have been more prudent.

Point being, other formations were more than possible and would have suited some players more.
 
Bergen Blade said:
Wilder's team peaked last season. We had confidence and momentum from the promotions, an unusual style that PL teams struggled to deal with, and a team where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. It was a team that had taken a few years to develop, during which time many players had come and gone. The players knew each other and their individual roles so well. We managed to disrupt other teams' rhythm and make the games about what we were good at. It was great fun reading Roy's View From with opposition fans always saying their team had an off day.

But gradually teams started to take us more seriously, and this season we've got to admit that we've been found out. In fact, I think Wilder's spectacular fall from grace was primarily down to not accepting we'd been found out. We just tried to get things going again, hoping that the odd change in team selection would bring back the good times. Failing to see what other teams did to us, how they managed to make the games about what they were good at.

Without momentum and confidence, and better prepared opposition teams, our style became ineffective. The players tried their best in their respective roles, but the moves didn't lead to chances. Defensively our midfield's inability to cover enough space was largely ignored by the management. This has been the biggest problem this season and ruined so much for other aspects of our game. Certain tweaks wasn't enough to address it. A clear change from what had stopped working was required, but the management refused to make a formation change. I think this was unfair on the players, who's been looking worse than they really are.

Individually most of them are Championship standard. But Championship standard players can do well at a higher level, at least for some time. We saw that last season. But often they would have to play the exact right role, being asked to the things they do well, while their weaknesses are being compensated by others or reduced in relevance by certain tactical moves. An example - Jags looking miserable at RCB in a poorly organised defence at home vs Man Utd - and Jags looking excellent at the heart of the defence away vs Man Utd when we got our tactics right.

Following such a nightmare of a season it is understandable that fans lose faith in the players. And while most of these players proved last season that they could do well at PL level, they have proven this season that they can't do well together, given the circumstances mentioned above. As individual players, in other teams, a few may still be considered good enough.

I don't expect big interest from PL clubs this summer. But maybe Egan could do a job in a different formation and different setup at Burnley or Newcastle. Maybe Baldock would cope in Leeds' energetic side, if not necessarily as first choice? Maybe a newly promoted side would feel Fleck could offer some experience? Berge and O'Connell (if proven fitness) are likely to attract interest and there's been rumours about Ramsdale and Bryan. Bogle may also have shown enough to attract bids. Ampadu may also get another PL loan. That is 9 current players and I think a lot of decent Championship clubs would consider a number of the rest if the price was right.


So this has been an awful season and I agree the team has looked embarrassing at times. Threads are popping up with some tough criticism of individuals and match reports are posted with very low ratings, this is to be expected. But while I think a few players should be coming to the end of their spell with us, there is some ability around that are likely to show more when circumstances change. It may be with us, or elsewhere. This season has been a failure to such an extent that evaluating players' individual ability and potential is quite hard. We should probably cut them some slack.
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Excellent post Bergen, and you make some very good points.
I do think however, the players have to share some of the blame for this season's debacle. Many of them (particularly the midfield trio) are way off the standards they set last season. Maybe you can put Fleck's injuries down as a factor, but even so.
When Wilder left, I wonder if Sharp & the other senior players went to the Prince or Heckingbottom and said "this isn't working, we need to try something different"? It seems not, as little has changed under PH. I wonder why? It must be obvious to experienced pros that things aren't right on the pitch.
 
I agree entirely with the basic premise of the OP and have been arguing for over two years that the 3-5-2 system was not sustainable in the long run due to fact that it requires almost superhuman efforts from players in key positions , notably the wingbacks and overlapping / underlapping centre backs .

My greatest wish for next season is that the starting point of our system will be a back four , and if it consists of Baldock - Basham - Egan - O’Connell will be by some distance the best back four in the Championship and better than quite a few of those in the Premier League.

From that strong base and with a good holding midfielder , it’s fairly easy even from our existing squad to pick a side which should have more than enough for most of the others in the division . Mine would be :-

Ramsdale
Baldock. Basham . Egan. O’Connell
Fleck
Bogle McGoldrick. Osborn
Sharp. Brewster

Contrary to the opinions of some on here , I firmly believe that every one of those players would be far more comfortable in such a formation and would produce much better performances than has been the case for the last 18 months .
 
Good stuff as always Bergen Blade. I've thought in similar ways myself. I'd take it a bit further and say that the team had a definite shelf life. Almost all from 1st division through to PL, it didn't take great insight to see that the PL would be a step too far for most at some point. Victims of their own success, in that any attempt at replacing and beginning to dismantle would have been met with rage, more so given the over-achieving last season. Managers are there to make tough decisions and unpopular ones and even decisions that seem ludicrous at the time but are long-term thinking. We all scoffed at Brighton and Fulham regarding Norwood, now it seems like good long-term thinking.
Evolve or face revolution and rebuild is what I'm saying. No room for sentiment did someone once say?
 
BerksBlade said:
When Wilder left, I wonder if Sharp & the other senior players went to the Prince or Heckingbottom and said "this isn't working, we need to try something different"? It seems not, as little has changed under PH. I wonder why? It must be obvious to experienced pros that things aren't right on the pitch.
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This is a great point, its not like we've got a team of kids who haven't played together or overcome adversity before. The majority of our team are experienced pros with plenty of games under their belt but have just sleepwalked off a cliff and have allowed it to happen.
I don't know what Wilder was like behind closed doors but from media releases and his ultimate demise, it seems like it was "my way or the highway", dining out on previous success that worked until this season but as times and situations change, you have to change too. If your boss pisses you off, there are two ways to go, either to prove them wrong or put two fingers up and rightly or wrongly, our players did the latter, pretty much ever since the Leicester post match debacle and the downing of tools at Southampton which just carried on into this season.

No coincidence that Tony Pulis is out of a job and Wilder too who seemed to just bury his head in the sand rather than try and change the situation positively. He used to go on about lack of sentiment, yet we kept on seeing the same faces every week in the same formation in the hope rather than expectation that something would change.
 
Biggest disappointment for me this season is Wilder leaving the club. He's had four successful seasons and one truly horrendous which has drastically reduced his kudos and credibility, but in my opinion he would have served us well in future.

To be honest I'm not sure why or under what circumstances he left ? Could someone give me the lowdown on the reasons he did so ? Or point me to a link ?
Cheers
 
SouthEssexBlade said:
Good stuff as always Bergen Blade. I've thought in similar ways myself. I'd take it a bit further and say that the team had a definite shelf life. Almost all from 1st division through to PL, it didn't take great insight to see that the PL would be a step too far for most at some point. Victims of their own success, in that any attempt at replacing and beginning to dismantle would have been met with rage, more so given the over-achieving last season. Managers are there to make tough decisions and unpopular ones and even decisions that seem ludicrous at the time but are long-term thinking. We all scoffed at Brighton and Fulham regarding Norwood, now it seems like good long-term thinking.
Evolve or face revolution and rebuild is what I'm saying. No room for sentiment did someone once say?
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I was asked in the pub last night where I thought it had all gone wrong for us. My considered response was that last season we had almost every player at the peak (or arguably past the peak) of their abilities and a team so honed that it was far more than the sum of its parts. The unravelling has happened far quicker than anyone expected but the reasons - to me - are fairly simple: we couldn't expect the team to outperform for ever, we had absolutely no response to the tactical tweaks made by the opposition which nullified our attacking threat while highlighting our defensive issues and we suffered with injuries this season which we didn't last. To be honest, the players have looked mentally shot since that Everton game at home last season and the belief has been draining out of them ever since.

I hear IdLiketoRogerMoore 's point about the conditioning but is that not a factor of us having a very small squad (if you exclude the 5 goalkeepers and 6 strikers...) and a style which requires the players to spend two-thirds of the game without the ball? The players are mentally fatigued so they're making poor decisions and then they're investing what energy they have in chasing lost causes.

We definitely need a clearout in the summer as it's gone stale. We'll probably lose 3-5 first teamers (Lundstram, Berge, Baldock maybe, Egan maybe, McBurnie maybe) and the majority of the support players (Bryan, Moore, Jagielka, Robinson, Mousset) but we'll still have a decent core to rebuild around.
 
bypassblade said:
We play 38 games this season and so far we're on 25 defeats meaning in terms of games lost to games played ratio it has to be our worst ever season I can remember. I watched 1st 35 minutes Sunday and we were bright and then Didzy should have scored, then Arsenal did and you knew what was coming heads dropped balls went astray badly.

I am lost to understand what has gone so dramatically wrong but yes CW through his obstinacy has to take much of the blame, we stuck to a system that was "sussed" ages ago but he was too stubborn to accept it.

I have never minded us losing in all my time as a Blade as long as we go down battling sadly, that has been very lacking this season and at times we have been an embarrassment to watch. Let the season end, go down regroup with a new manager??? and have a damn good clear-out last season the football had fans purring this season cringing.
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Good post bypass, very disappointing this season. Hope things are ok ?
 
Balham Blade said:
I was asked in the pub last night where I thought it had all gone wrong for us. My considered response was that last season we had almost every player at the peak (or arguably past the peak) of their abilities and a team so honed that it was far more than the sum of its parts. The unravelling has happened far quicker than anyone expected but the reasons - to me - are fairly simple: we couldn't expect the team to outperform for ever, we had absolutely no response to the tactical tweaks made by the opposition which nullified our attacking threat while highlighting our defensive issues and we suffered with injuries this season which we didn't last. To be honest, the players have looked mentally shot since that Everton game at home last season and the belief has been draining out of them ever since.

I hear IdLiketoRogerMoore 's point about the conditioning but is that not a factor of us having a very small squad (if you exclude the 5 goalkeepers and 6 strikers...) and a style which requires the players to spend two-thirds of the game without the ball? The players are mentally fatigued so they're making poor decisions and then they're investing what energy they have in chasing lost causes.

We definitely need a clearout in the summer as it's gone stale. We'll probably lose 3-5 first teamers (Lundstram, Berge, Baldock maybe, Egan maybe, McBurnie maybe) and the majority of the support players (Bryan, Moore, Jagielka, Robinson, Mousset) but we'll still have a decent core to rebuild around.
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I'd forgotten Robinson even existed.
 

Simply put, the players aren't individually good enough for the top flight. Berge might be. JoC possibly. Other than that, not really. They've played in the same system, which they know off by heart, for 4 seasons. It has worked because, in the same way as Moneyball works, we basically had a team much better than the sum of the individual players. We had virtually no injuries over that period and every player was playing at over 100% consistently every game. That has a shelf life. Every time you replace someone the replacement isn't going to be as good for a period of time. so the whole weakens. It's an unsustainable system. This season was going to happen sooner rather than later.

Every player was giving over 100% effort every game against teams with better athletes and much better technical footballers. You can only maintain momentum, peak intensity and form for so long. Eventually cracks start to appear. Losing one key player is like losing twice as much in effectiveness. Players only have so much in their legs and some of our seem spent. Whether a long off-season will help, who knows, but more than one (Stevens, McGoldrick, Fleck) look spent.
 
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There is no doubt that the mess we find ourselves in has various causes - Covid, injuries, transfer policies, other teams being richer and smarter, tactics and selection policies all play a part.

But at the end of the day, the root of the problem is player performance. tactics will only get you so far.

We sold no one. We lost a great keeper, and our best defender is out for the season. But that does not excuse a decline from the top half of the PL to a contender for the worst team ever seen at this level.

If we’d had a season like Fulham, or WBA, of like Wycombe in the Championship, fine. But this is far, far worse.

Loughborough in 1899-1900 scored 16 goals in 34 games, won 1 game and played a game in a vicarage garden because they were locked out of their own ground. Doncaster in 1997-8 had an arsonist for a chairman, were training in a public park and played the managers next door neighbour in goal. Derby fluked promotion and won once. We were still in the running for Europe with 3 games left and had our best season in 30 years and yet these are the sort of teams we are now bracketed with.

The players have to bear a lot of responsibility for this.

Six players - Stevens, the midfield 3, McBurnie and Mousset - have completely fallen off the cliff. They are unrecognisable from last season. Is that Wilder’s fault? Is that Matt Prestidge’s fault?

For the rest, Kean Bryan has improved. McGoldrick is about the same with more end product. The rest have declined to one extent or another.

This across the board decline is unprecedented. I have never seen anything like it. Even 2010-11 was nothing like this, as a lot of those players were poor to begin with.

They are not shooting as well, they are not overlapping, they give up too easily, they make many unforced errors, they are very negative, they won’t or can’t tackle....most championship sides would have done better than this.

They are not solely at fault, but they are at fault. And blaming the system only gets you so far. The system doesn’t keep scoring own goals or ball watching at corners. The system doesn’t cause the forwards to be minus 11 goals on xg.

McBurnie of all people got it right when Wilder left. They let him down, and they let us down.

I really worry about next season. This squad is broken.
 
Revolution said:
There is no doubt that the mess we find ourselves in has various causes - Covid, injuries, transfer policies, other teams being richer and smarter, tactics and selection policies all play a part.

But at the end of the day, the root of the problem is player performance. tactics will only get you so far.

We sold no one. We lost a great keeper, and our best defender is out for the season. But that does not excuse a decline from the top half of the PL to a contender for the worst team ever seen at this level.

If we’d had a season like Fulham, or WBA, of like Wycombe in the Championship, fine. But this is far, far worse.

Loughborough in 1899-1900 scored 16 goals in 34 games, won 1 game and played a game in a vicarage garden because they were locked out of their own ground. Doncaster in 1997-8 had an arsonist for a chairman, were training in a public park and played the managers next door neighbour in goal. Derby fluked promotion and won once. We were still in the running for Europe with 3 games left and had our best season in 30 years and yet these are the sort of teams we are now bracketed with.

The players have to bear a lot of responsibility for this.

Six players - Stevens, the midfield 3, McBurnie and Mousset - have completely fallen off the cliff. They are unrecognisable from last season. Is that Wilder’s fault? Is that Matt Prestidge’s fault?

For the rest, Kean Bryan has improved. McGoldrick is about the same with more end product. The rest have declined to one extent or another.

This across the board decline is unprecedented. I have never seen anything like it. Even 2010-11 was nothing like this, as a lot of those players were poor to begin with.

They are not shooting as well, they are not overlapping, they give up too easily, they make many unforced errors, they are very negative, they won’t or can’t tackle....most championship sides would have done better than this.

They are not solely at fault, but they are at fault. And blaming the system only gets you so far. The system doesn’t keep scoring own goals or ball watching at corners. The system doesn’t cause the forwards to be minus 11 goals on xg.

McBurnie of all people got it right when Wilder left. They let him down, and they let us down.

I really worry about next season. This squad is broken.
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Perfectly sums it up.

I think way too much is made of the system and formation. Of course we should have changed it when it was not working. It should have been changed and some players may have done a bit better. Some also may not (Egan/Ampadu/Bash in a 2 for instance and some wing backs who would be even more exposed as full backs...Fleck and Norwood as a 2 would have not changed thing either for me). Still we ought to have made adjustments but....

...regardless of that the players almost to a man have been 2nd best to opponents in tackling, running, pressing, passing, shooting, dribbles. Everything. Every week.

These same players may have reached a peak last year but to go from that to this is more than just tactics or not following a managers instructions. The basics have not been there since day one. I still maintain too that the effort has not really been anywhere near what it should be (outside of Man Utd and Villa). The side have shown no fight, togetherness or as Wilder would say won their 'races, headers and tackles.'

Then on the ball if the players could control it, make passes, take responsibility and try and go forward and not be scared to get on the ball we may have got up the field amd not been under so much pressure. They have shown no bravery on or off the ball All the things they did last year.

The players for me have to take huge responsibility. Regardless of tactics every single player has regressed (maybe not McGoldrick) and have dropped off their levels not a bit but as you say fell completely off a cliff.

Many have a defining summer/start to next season in mentality/physical condition and performances. Some will rightly go before but a fair fews Blades careers will be over if they do not show a lot more than they have for a good 10 months in most cases.
 
Balham Blade said:
I was asked in the pub last night where I thought it had all gone wrong for us. My considered response was that last season we had almost every player at the peak (or arguably past the peak) of their abilities and a team so honed that it was far more than the sum of its parts. The unravelling has happened far quicker than anyone expected but the reasons - to me - are fairly simple: we couldn't expect the team to outperform for ever, we had absolutely no response to the tactical tweaks made by the opposition which nullified our attacking threat while highlighting our defensive issues and we suffered with injuries this season which we didn't last. To be honest, the players have looked mentally shot since that Everton game at home last season and the belief has been draining out of them ever since.

I hear IdLiketoRogerMoore 's point about the conditioning but is that not a factor of us having a very small squad (if you exclude the 5 goalkeepers and 6 strikers...) and a style which requires the players to spend two-thirds of the game without the ball? The players are mentally fatigued so they're making poor decisions and then they're investing what energy they have in chasing lost causes.

We definitely need a clearout in the summer as it's gone stale. We'll probably lose 3-5 first teamers (Lundstram, Berge, Baldock maybe, Egan maybe, McBurnie maybe) and the majority of the support players (Bryan, Moore, Jagielka, Robinson, Mousset) but we'll still have a decent core to rebuild around.
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Great points. I'd also suggest that the peak which you mention the players hitting last season was not just a peak of form/ability but also physically. As you know yourself, sustaining that physical peak is actually harder than the training required to get to it. Once the likes of Fleck, Stevens, Lundstram, Basham started to fade - we've had no where to go...

Fatigue is a massive thing - you're right. Our wafer thin squad has been exposed and our inability to bring in competition/relief for the players struggling physically has been what has really torn the arse out of us.
 
I've supported United for 67 years and last season was THE BEST! For that one season I'm grateful to the players and the management team. The current side is largely (or would have been if not for injuries) made up of the same players. I understand that we are all hurting but before we dive in and criticise please take a step back and remember that season.

The simple fact is this set of players GROSSLY OVER PERFORMED last season. Take a look at what we pay our players - money doesn't lie. One Man City player earns more than our entire first team! What did we really expect this season?

Had we not had the injuries, if crowds had been there, we might, just might, have avoided relegation at best. However, let's face it, the current squad isn't good enough for the Premier League, unless they over perform week after week. We can't reasonably expect that and we certainly shouldn't criticise them for not doing so.

I'm convinced that had we had top quality players in some key positions then together with existing members of the the squad we could have been competitive. We didn't have that quality in key positions because the club couldn't or wasn't prepared to pay the WAGES they demand.

I don't have all the facts so I'm not prepared to blame anyone for the wage structure. However, I do want to see the ownership set out a clear and realistic objective for the club e.g. are we intending to be a Championship club, a Yo-Yo club, a mid-table Premiership Club or a European places Premiership Club. Incidentally, the management speak babble objectives put out by the club recently isn't what I mean. Then, most importantly, I want to see a CREDIBLE plan for reaching the stated objective.

Will we get that - I doubt it. There's only one thing I know. As soon as we're allowed back I'll be doing the 350 mile return trip for every home game - and that's probably the reason we have had such incompetent owners.
 
The ‘more than the sum of their parts’ and momentum things were always a given though; the system worked because the same team played every week and knew their (and each other’s) roles inside out. Even before March last year, we were saying on the podcast that as brilliantly as it was all going, we were surely just a couple of injuries away from the spell being broken. As it turned out, we were wrong and it only took one (plus the rest losing some fitness)

Momentum has always been an issue too. I’ve been moaning for a while that we always come back slowly, even following just a week off for the international breaks.

So there’s a few mitigations, but I also agree with Deadbat - for all the excuses, the players have been individually poor, and at times pathetic; basically performing with the mentality that has shown why they’ve always been lower league players. I hope they can turn it around, because it would be a shame for them all to shit on their United legacy so completely.

 
It'll be interesting to watch what happens at Leeds next season and how they approach it.

There are potentially a lot of similarities between them and us - can the 'over-achievers' like Cooper, Ayling, Dallas etc do it again, will the high physical effort needed eventually take it's toll, will a tactically inflexible manager get 'found out' etc? Maybe their higher wage bill and spending power will mean they'll be OK but I don't think it'd be an enormous shock if they struggled a bit.
 
The first 4 years of Wilder was a miracle, and the players should get full credit and am sure they have done well financially. Unfortunately it was built on sand. Wilder however thought he was the messiah and believed in his own bullshit so carried on with what worked before.
It was all above him and his scattergun approach to recruitment came home to roost.
Feel very pessimistic about it all which makes the next manager/DOF appointments critical
 
cooperblade said:
It'll be interesting to watch what happens at Leeds next season and how they approach it.

There are potentially a lot of similarities between them and us - can the 'over-achievers' like Cooper, Ayling, Dallas etc do it again, will the high physical effort needed eventually take it's toll, will a tactically inflexible manager get 'found out' etc? Maybe their higher wage bill and spending power will mean they'll be OK but I don't think it'd be an enormous shock if they struggled a bit.
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I think they'll not do quite as well but won't come close to what happened to us. I expect Leeds to stay at this level for a long time.

They'll replace the likes of Cooper, Alioski and Ayling and invest using the continental market.

Dallas is their Basham. He just does a job wherever he plays.
 
The biggest disappointment for me has been that the club have spent way more money over the last few seasons on transfer fees than it ever has before in it's history, and Norwood/Mcgoldrick apart, not one of those signings has made any permanent long term improvement what so ever to the team that got us promoted from the third division,,

No wonder their knacked .........:rolleyes:
, .....
 
BerksBlade said:
Excellent post Bergen, and you make some very good points.
I do think however, the players have to share some of the blame for this season's debacle. Many of them (particularly the midfield trio) are way off the standards they set last season. Maybe you can put Fleck's injuries down as a factor, but even so.
When Wilder left, I wonder if Sharp & the other senior players went to the Prince or Heckingbottom and said "this isn't working, we need to try something different"? It seems not, as little has changed under PH. I wonder why? It must be obvious to experienced pros that things aren't right on the pitch.
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I think Lundstram's success was dependent on superior fitness and motivation, which he acquired in the summer of 2020. There's been a slight decrease in both I reckon. Norwood just looks like he's aged ten years over the summer, struggling to keep up with faster opponents. Fleck - not sure, injuries may have played a part as you say, but he hasn't been able to take enough responsibility when we've lacked rhythm.

There have been others who've been tried in midfield (Berge, Bash, Ampadu, Osborn) and they've found it difficult too. I keep coming back to this, but have a look at how we do the opposite of what inferior teams tend to do, i.e. packing the midfield. We have three players, three miserable sods, being asked to cover a LOT of space, pressing and tracking some very talented opponents. Sure, have a go at each of them, but when nobody seems to thrive, when no combination seems to work, maybe it's time to have a look at the structure.

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Eskimo said:
Ok so most of us agree with Bergen. Now side with me please. Let’s give Bergen the job! Assuming you’re in Bergen Bergen will a work permit be a problem?
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I didn't even know there was an opening as the club's radiographer..

BTW, I think even Solskjær would have been ruled out with the new rules.
 
Deadbat said:
I think they'll not do quite as well but won't come close to what happened to us. I expect Leeds to stay at this level for a long time.

They'll replace the likes of Cooper, Alioski and Ayling and invest using the continental market.

Dallas is their Basham. He just does a job wherever he plays.
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Yeah, you're probably right. They haven't hit our heights in year 1 and won't hit our lows in year 2.
 

So last season barely anyone could figure out the way Wilder set up and now suddenly everyone could?

I don't buy it. It is mostly down to injuries, lack of atmosphere at matches and morale.
 
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