60 years ago this month...

[Silent Blade]

I still bear the mental scar of the penalty he scored past me…

What year was that?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

What year was that?

Early 70s, in a Cup match. We were losing 4-0, and Fred had been quiet, not advancing much beyond the half-way line. We gave away a penalty with a few minutes to go, and I was absolutely determined to save it - he had, I think, taken a good few penalties for United. I was on my toes and incredibly focused as he WALKED towards the ball, and I heard the ball hit the back of the net before I realised he had kicked it. I understood at that moment how huge the gulf is between professional footballers and the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Early 70s, in a Cup match. We were losing 4-0, and Fred had been quiet, not advancing much beyond the half-way line. We gave away a penalty with a few minutes to go, and I was absolutely determined to save it - he had, I think, taken a good few penalties for United. I was on my toes and incredibly focused as he WALKED towards the ball, and I heard the ball hit the back of the net before I realised he had kicked it. I understood at that moment how huge the gulf is between professional footballers and the rest of us mere mortals.

Yes , I talked to a couple of blokes in the past , one of whom had played against Wednesday’s Jack Witham and the other against Charlie Hartfield when both had retired and were way past their best and overweight .

Both remarked as to how easy they made the game look and how poor they made the much younger and fitter players around them appear to be .

With regard to Charlie , I have a recollection of him being out of favour and me banging on to my mates that we needed him back in the side and that when this happened , we went on a great run which took us well clear of the relegation zone .

I’m thinking it was the year that we looked dead and buried by the end of November but can’t be sure and wonder if you or one of our other fine historians on here can shed more light on this since it’s been gnawing away at me for quite some time .

Either way , I still look on him as one of those players whose contribution to our performances at the time was seriously underrated by many and who was just the type of player our current team would benefit from .

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Yes , I talked to a couple of blokes in the past , one of whom had played against Wednesday’s Jack Witham and the other against Charlie Hartfield when both had retired and were way past their best and overweight .

Both remarked as to how easy they made the game look and how poor they made the much younger and fitter players around them appear to be .

With regard to Charlie , I have a recollection of him being out of favour and me banging on to my mates that we needed him back in the side and that when this happened , we went on a great run which took us well clear of the relegation zone .

I’m thinking it was the year that we looked dead and buried by the end of November but can’t be sure and wonder if you or one of our other fine historians on here can shed more light on this since it’s been gnawing away at me for quite some time .

Either way , I still look on him as one of those players whose contribution to our performances at the time was seriously underrated by many and who was just the type of player our current team would benefit from .

In line with the rules and regulations of this Forum, I am unable to answer your question until 2052. Perhaps Sue Page could conduct an enquiry into the facts for you.
In other words, I don’t know the answer to your question! Far too recent for me to be able to remember.

 

[Tickhill Blade]

Yes , I talked to a couple of blokes in the past , one of whom had played against Wednesday’s Jack Witham and the other against Charlie Hartfield when both had retired and were way past their best and overweight .

Both remarked as to how easy they made the game look and how poor they made the much younger and fitter players around them appear to be .

With regard to Charlie , I have a recollection of him being out of favour and me banging on to my mates that we needed him back in the side and that when this happened , we went on a great run which took us well clear of the relegation zone .

I’m thinking it was the year that we looked dead and buried by the end of November but can’t be sure and wonder if you or one of our other fine historians on here can shed more light on this since it’s been gnawing away at me for quite some time .

Either way , I still look on him as one of those players whose contribution to our performances at the time was seriously underrated by many and who was just the type of player our current team would benefit from .

Hartfield came into the side in the second half of the 1992/93 season around Jan time and our form did pick up somewhat including winning the final 3 games of the season to finish 14th (we were 19th when he came back into the side).

He played in the cup wins over Man Utd and Blackburn, and the 6-0 against Spurs.

 

[Isaw Joeshaw]

Hartfield came into the side in the second half of the 1992/93 season around Jan time and our form did pick up somewhat including winning the final 3 games of the season to finish 14th (we were 19th when he came back into the side).

He played in the cup wins over Man Utd and Blackburn, and the 6-0 against Spurs.

Many thanks for that .

 

[Silent Blade]

Hartfield came into the side in the second half of the 1992/93 season around Jan time and our form did pick up somewhat including winning the final 3 games of the season to finish 14th (we were 19th when he came back into the side).

He played in the cup wins over Man Utd and Blackburn, and the 6-0 against Spurs.

A suspension prevented him from playing in the FA Cup semi final. He was on form at the time

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Monday, January 15, 1962
FA Cup 3rd Round, 2nd replay
At Hillsborough
Utd 2-0 Bury
Attendance: 26941

This was not a classic cup match by any means, but it stood out for 2 reasons:

1. It was strange to go to Hillsborough and watch United as the ‘home’ team. There was a good crowd, mainly Unitedites, with a few from Bury and presumably some Wednesdayites taking the opportunity to enjoy an extra visit to their ground and hope to see United giant-killed.
2. United showed great resilience. This was their 3rd game in 6 days, and just 2 days before they had been given a physical battering at Villa. Some of the wounded were patched up and played, but others were replaced by players who had little first-team experience. It was to the credit of both groups that they performed well enough to see off Bury this time without alarms, and set up a 4th round tie against Peterborough, whose manager was Jimmy Hagen. And there was growing optimism that United’s recent good run of form had every chance of continuing, especially with some of the back-up players fitting in well.
Below, there is a page from the scrapbook, programme, and newspaper report provided by Silent Blade . The annotations in the programme are in my brother’s hand-writing, and I would add the following observations. The size of the attendance, 26, is an underestimate. To fit in United’s changes, he uses first-names and nicknames only, in a somewhat informal way : ‘Rocko’, Joe and Ron are the absent players. However, full marks for the correct use of ‘whom’ in that sentence, which shows that he took something from his grammar school education! And I love the way he used our player ratings to obliterate all details of the Wednesday hierarchy

 

[ancientblade]

remember this game well hodgy my dad and me sat in the north stand first time i had been in there only 8 at the time but can remember united fans on the kop making it a great atmosphere cant believe its 60 years ago

 

[Bell4]

Monday, January 15, 1962
FA Cup 3rd Round, 2nd replay
At Hillsborough
Utd 2-0 Bury
Attendance: 26941

This was not a classic cup match by any means, but it stood out for 2 reasons:

1. It was strange to go to Hillsborough and watch United as the ‘home’ team. There was a good crowd, mainly Unitedites, with a few from Bury and presumably some Wednesdayites taking the opportunity to enjoy an extra visit to their ground and hope to see United giant-killed.
2. United showed great resilience. This was their 3rd game in 6 days, and just 2 days before they had been given a physical battering at Villa. Some of the wounded were patched up and played, but others were replaced by players who had little first-team experience. It was to the credit of both groups that they performed well enough to see off Bury this time without alarms, and set up a 4th round tie against Peterborough, whose manager was Jimmy Hagen. And there was growing optimism that United’s recent good run of form had every chance of continuing, especially with some of the back-up players fitting in well.
Below, there is a page from the scrapbook, programme, and newspaper report provided by Silent Blade . The annotations in the programme are in my brother’s hand-writing, and I would add the following observations. The size of the attendance, 26, is an underestimate. To fit in United’s changes, he uses first-names and nicknames only, in a somewhat informal way : ‘Rocko’, Joe and Ron are the absent players. However, full marks for the correct use of ‘whom’ in that sentence, which shows that he took something from his grammar school education! And I love the way he used our player ratings to obliterate all details of the Wednesday hierarchy
View attachment 128127View attachment 128128View attachment 128129View attachment 128130View attachment 128131View attachment 128132View attachment 128133View attachment 128134

stunning stuff

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

remember this game well hodgy my dad and me sat in the north stand first time i had been in there only 8 at the time but can remember united fans on the kop making it a great atmosphere cant believe its 60 years ago

As a United fan on the Kop that night, I will take that as a compliment. I hope our old rattle didn’t frighten you. And anyway, shouldn’t you have been in bed by then?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

January 20, 1962
United 3-1 Chelsea
Attendance: 19626

At the time, this was generally regarded as a routine win by a United team on the up against lowly Chelsea (what a pleasure it is to write that phrase - and they did end up getting relegated!) But it is also a match which stands out for me for very specific reasons.
The first is that I was standing in the front half of the Kop, to the left of the goal, perhaps as wide as the edge of the penalty area. The score had been 1-1 at half-time, and as the game was drawing to a close, it appeared that United’s superiority was not going to be rewarded, and that we would have to settle for a draw. Just over 5 minutes remaining, Utd won a free-kick out towards the dark expanses of the cricket pitch, which Joe Shaw prepared to take. When the ball was delivered, Pace rose and headed it, and as soon as it left his head, it was clear that the leaping Bonetti (‘The Cat’) was not going to be able to reach it, and that the ball was heading just inside the post. There is a special thrill in knowing that your team are about to score a goal, and you are one of the privileged few in the ground to know it - we had the perfect view to see that the ball was heading into the goal. It so happened that the photographers lined up behind that side of the goal (a very familiar sight then) had the same angle as us, so the press photographs froze that moment in time for us:

And one of the pleasures of preparing these posts is to make comparisons with the present day. By coincidence, pictures have been posted from this week’s game at Preston, where 7 Utd players in the penalty area failed to prevent a lone Preston player scoring; in the picture above it shows Pace benefiting from just such a situation - but I am sure at the time we were only thinking about the accuracy of the free-kick and Pace’s ability to find space. 6 defenders and a goalkeeper, one attacker, a goal to celebrate. The Chelsea fans forums, however, would have been n meltdown Particularly as Russell scored with a powerful shot just 1 minute later.
And so it was onwards and upwards for Utd, with a Cup-tie against Jimmy Hagan to look forward to the following Saturday. But for me, it was the end of an era (not that I remember it feeling like that at the time); the Chelsea game completed Volume 5 of our scrapbook, and for some reason, we never moved on to Volume 6. Looking back, I have no idea why Volume 6 was never started. Approaching the age of 15, perhaps a scrapbook seemed rather childish; about the same time, I stopped autograph-hunting, aware that the others waiting around the players’ entrance now seemed younger than me. Perhaps we were so poor that we couldn’t afford a new book Perhaps I wanted to devote my spare time to studying for O-levels Perhaps I was just realising that girls were rather more interesting than I used to think (no laughing emoji for that one). Who knows? But I am afraid the page below is the last ever page of our scrapbooks…

In the following post, I add details from the programme, player ratings, and match report, courtesy of Silent Blade

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

 

[ancientblade]

As a United fan on the Kop that night, I will take that as a compliment. I hope our old rattle didn’t frighten you. And anyway, shouldn’t you have been in bed by then?

cheeky devil hodgy i was 10 at the time was a very happy young blade walking back up herries road that night

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Whilst looking for something else among my chaotic programme collection, I came across the programmes for 2 ‘recent’ matches, which I assumed had been lost for ever. First, the initial match in the Cup at Bury:


A couple of facts surprised me:
1. In all 5 Cup Finals from 1899-1903, either Bury or United were one of the finalists. Wow, just wow…
2. I knew that Bob Stokoe was manager of Bury, but I had forgotten that he played over 80 games for them, as he was player-manager. He did not play in this Cup-tie for some reason.

The other programme is another 0-0 draw, at Villa:

Both these programmes are for 0-0 draws; and perhaps not surprisingly, in both matches our player ratings had Joe Shaw as man of the match. No surprise there.

 

[Bell4]

Whilst looking for something else among my chaotic programme collection, I came across the programmes for 2 ‘recent’ matches, which I assumed had been lost for ever. First, the initial match in the Cup at Bury:
View attachment 128986View attachment 128987View attachment 128988

A couple of facts surprised me:
1. In all 5 Cup Finals from 1899-1903, either Bury or United were one of the finalists. Wow, just wow…
2. I knew that Bob Stokoe was manager of Bury, but I had forgotten that he played over 80 games for them, as he was player-manager. He did not play in this Cup-tie for some reason.

The other programme is another 0-0 draw, at Villa:
View attachment 128989View attachment 128990
Both these programmes are for 0-0 draws; and perhaps not surprisingly, in both matches our player ratings had Joe Shaw as man of the match. No surprise there.

harsh

Richardson was deffo a 14 - you always underscore him

 

[Silent Blade]

harsh

Richardson was deffo a 14 - you always underscore him

Just like pommpey with Norwood!

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Just like pommpey with Norwood!

Come on, 14 out of 20 = 7 out of 10. When did he ever rate Norwood that high?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

harsh

Richardson was deffo a 14 - you always underscore him

My brother was quite a fan of Richardson (mainly for his hairstyle). I presume I marked him low to annoy my brother! We averaged our marks. My brother was a huge fan of Joe Shaw, so was quite happy to vote for him.
I agree with your basic point. Richardson was the original ‘unseen work’, with no irony whatsoever. Extremely reliable.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

27 January, 1962
FA Cup, 4th round
Peterborough 1-3 United
Attendance: 28174

Now here is a coincidence, and for those of a superstitious nature, a good omen. Last Saturday in January, 1962, an away trip to Peterborough, and a very good 3-1 win; 60 years later, the last Saturday in January again sees United travel to Peterborough, and a similar result would be very welcome. Not long to wait to see how that works out…
If there is one thing that has become clear to me in this thread, it is how lucky we were to have grown up enjoying success in the most prestigious competition at the time, the FA Cup. The previous 4 seasons had provided trips to Tottenham, Arsenal, Everton, Newcastle, and we had gone through to the next round in each case. We had visited grounds we never expected to, such as Worcester. And now, we were about to have our first ever game against Peterborough, who were on the crest of a wave. They had finally been allowed into the Football League in 1960, gained promotion from League 4 in 1961, and in January 1961 they were in 3rd position in League 3. Their manager was Jimmy Hagan (no introduction needed), and their centre-forward was Terry Bly, a player who had given us trouble in the Cup previously with Norwich. We were expecting a difficult game in front of a sellout crowd of over 28000, with over 9000 Unitedites heading for a first taste of football against the Posh.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

27 January, 1962
FA Cup, 4th round
Peterborough 1-3 United
Attendance: 28174

Now here is a coincidence, and for those of a superstitious nature, a good omen. Last Saturday in January, 1962, an away trip to Peterborough, and a very good 3-1 win; 60 years later, the last Saturday in January again sees United travel to Peterborough, and a similar result would be very welcome. Not long to wait to see how that works out…
If there is one thing that has become clear to me in this thread, it is how lucky we were to have grown up enjoying success in the most prestigious competition at the time, the FA Cup. The previous 4 seasons had provided trips to Tottenham, Arsenal, Everton, Newcastle, and we had gone through to the next round in each case. We had visited grounds we never expected to, such as Worcester. And now, we were about to have our first ever game against Peterborough, who were on the crest of a wave. They had finally been allowed into the Football League in 1960, gained promotion from League 4 in 1961, and in January 1961 they were in 3rd position in League 3. Their manager was Jimmy Hagan (no introduction needed), and their centre-forward was Terry Bly, a player who had given us trouble in the Cup previously with Norwich. We were expecting a difficult game in front of a sellout crowd of over 28000, with over 9000 Unitedites heading for a first taste of football against the Posh.

The rest of this post follows tomorrow. I clearly pressed the wrong part of the phone screen, intending to leave it until tomorrow. And yes, I am enjoying a glass of Laphroaig…

 

[ancientblade]

27 January, 1962
FA Cup, 4th round
Peterborough 1-3 United
Attendance: 28174

Now here is a coincidence, and for those of a superstitious nature, a good omen. Last Saturday in January, 1962, an away trip to Peterborough, and a very good 3-1 win; 60 years later, the last Saturday in January again sees United travel to Peterborough, and a similar result would be very welcome. Not long to wait to see how that works out…
If there is one thing that has become clear to me in this thread, it is how lucky we were to have grown up enjoying success in the most prestigious competition at the time, the FA Cup. The previous 4 seasons had provided trips to Tottenham, Arsenal, Everton, Newcastle, and we had gone through to the next round in each case. We had visited grounds we never expected to, such as Worcester. And now, we were about to have our first ever game against Peterborough, who were on the crest of a wave. They had finally been allowed into the Football League in 1960, gained promotion from League 4 in 1961, and in January 1961 they were in 3rd position in League 3. Their manager was Jimmy Hagan (no introduction needed), and their centre-forward was Terry Bly, a player who had given us trouble in the Cup previously with Norwich. We were expecting a difficult game in front of a sellout crowd of over 28000, with over 9000 Unitedites heading for a first taste of football against the Posh.

was this the year burnley knocked us out in the quarter final at the lane hodgy ?

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

was this the year burnley knocked us out in the quarter final at the lane hodgy ?

Indeed it is. I have always felt we were really unlucky that day, but maybe the reports etc. will suggest otherwise. We had 10 men and a limping Summers for almost the whole game, and their goal had a large element of luck. But those Cup runs were great. We always bought rosettes outside the ground for the 3rd round; I don’t know why they had always disappeared by the following January.

 

[ancientblade]

Indeed it is. I have always felt we were really unlucky that day, but maybe the reports etc. will suggest otherwise. We had 10 men and a limping Summers for almost the whole game, and their goal had a large element of luck. But those Cup runs were great. We always bought rosettes outside the ground for the 3rd round; I don’t know why they had always disappeared by the following January.

was it 58k on a very foggy march day hodgy ?

 

[Bell4]

was it 58k on a very foggy march day hodgy ?

Seeing as it was foggy 🌫 it would have been especially difficult to expect total accuracy and for H to count everyone

I’ll accept a margin of error 12%

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

(Peterborough continued)
As I was saying before I touched the wrong bit of the screen and accidentally posted a half-finished account of the FA Cup match, over 9000 Unitedites, many with scarves, rosettes and rattles, set off for our first-ever meeting with Peterborough. The Cup had been good to us in recent years, and with our improving league form, there was confidence that another good Cup run was about to happen. There was always something special about the trainloads of fans heading for a Cup match, as around a third of the total number of tickets had to be made available to the away side, and always seemed to allow access to various parts of the ground. A good performance, and ‘Ilkla Moor’ would ring out from all 4 sides of the ground, as at Everton and Newcastle the previous season. And let’s face it, the 3-sided ground at Bramall Lane was always lacking something for atmosphere.
The walk from the station was noisy, and I think we felt that East Anglia was a backwater in need of a bit of livening up; to my surprise, inside, the ground was packed, and the atmosphere was very loud. We went directly behind one goal, and did our best to compete with the home fans; without a hint of a threat, let it be said. As I remember it, nothing was made of the fact that Jimmy Hagan was their manager; managers then were not very visible, and tended to be in their suits in the directors’ box.
It turned out that we were behind the goal United were defending in the first half, and my one clear memory of a detail of the match is (what else?) a great diving save in the opening minutes by Hodgy. Reassuring that we had him in goal, worrying that the Peterborough player had evaded our defenders rather easily. But it soon became clear that we needn’t worry - at the other end of the pitch, a repeat of the Newcastle game unfolded, and in a little over 20 minutes, thanks to 2 goals from Russell and 1 from Pace, we were 3-0 up. Cue ‘Ilkla Moor’, and relative quiet from the Peterborough crowd. As at Newcastle, we conceded a late goal which mattered not, and a happy train ride home was assured, as well as the prospect of a 5th Round tie yet again. Happy days. One minor blot on the horizon: Wednesday had beaten Forst 2-0 in the Cup, so the prospect of another tie v Wednesday was possible: but there was no time to worry about that, as we were away to Wednesday in one week’s time. We were just 2 points behind them, so a victory would… Did we dare dream?
Pics below, again with thanks to Silent Blade for the newspaper reports, and for the final picture, of Russell’s 2nd goal:

 

[Silent Blade]

My dad took my Uncle Ronnie to the match. My dad had a good chat with Jimmy Hagan outside the players entrance after the game.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

was it 58k on a very foggy march day hodgy ?

57000 is the official attendance. It was certainly very misty, but not like the fog of the Arsenal replay a few years before, which must have been close to being abandoned.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

(Peterborough continued)
As I was saying before I touched the wrong bit of the screen and accidentally posted a half-finished account of the FA Cup match, over 9000 Unitedites, many with scarves, rosettes and rattles, set off for our first-ever meeting with Peterborough. The Cup had been good to us in recent years, and with our improving league form, there was confidence that another good Cup run was about to happen. There was always something special about the trainloads of fans heading for a Cup match, as around a third of the total number of tickets had to be made available to the away side, and always seemed to allow access to various parts of the ground. A good performance, and ‘Ilkla Moor’ would ring out from all 4 sides of the ground, as at Everton and Newcastle the previous season. And let’s face it, the 3-sided ground at Bramall Lane was always lacking something for atmosphere.
The walk from the station was noisy, and I think we felt that East Anglia was a backwater in need of a bit of livening up; to my surprise, inside, the ground was packed, and the atmosphere was very loud. We went directly behind one goal, and did our best to compete with the home fans; without a hint of a threat, let it be said. As I remember it, nothing was made of the fact that Jimmy Hagan was their manager; managers then were not very visible, and tended to be in their suits in the directors’ box.
It turned out that we were behind the goal United were defending in the first half, and my one clear memory of a detail of the match is (what else?) a great diving save in the opening minutes by Hodgy. Reassuring that we had him in goal, worrying that the Peterborough player had evaded our defenders rather easily. But it soon became clear that we needn’t worry - at the other end of the pitch, a repeat of the Newcastle game unfolded, and in a little over 20 minutes, thanks to 2 goals from Russell and 1 from Pace, we were 3-0 up. Cue ‘Ilkla Moor’, and relative quiet from the Peterborough crowd. As at Newcastle, we conceded a late goal which mattered not, and a happy train ride home was assured, as well as the prospect of a 5th Round tie yet again. Happy days. One minor blot on the horizon: Wednesday had beaten Forst 2-0 in the Cup, so the prospect of another tie v Wednesday was possible: but there was no time to worry about that, as we were away to Wednesday in one week’s time. We were just 2 points behind them, so a victory would… Did we dare dream?
Pics below, again with thanks to Silent Blade for the newspaper reports, and for the final picture, of Russell’s 2nd goal:
View attachment 129015View attachment 129016View attachment 129017View attachment 129018View attachment 129019View attachment 129020View attachment 129021View attachment 129022View attachment 129023View attachment 129024View attachment 129025View attachment 129027View attachment 129028

There was a heck of a crush behind the goal at Peterborough where most Blades were. I seem to remember we were allocated 8,000 tickets for that tie, but more managed to gain entry.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

There was a heck of a crush behind the goal at Peterborough where most Blades were. I seem to remember we were allocated 8,000 tickets for that tie, but more managed to gain entry.

Was that the end where Utd scored all 3 goals? We were at the other end, and I remember the ground looking packed, but I don’t remember feeling crushed. I could just have forgotten, as Cup matches were often crushed.