Director of Football Coming In?

[KMC-1889]

How do you think that is best solved?

giving the jobs to Bettis & Wilder apparently.

 

[Wards]

I just don’t see where we have the funds and the infrastructure to warrant a DoF

Personally I'd look at it the other way - if it saves us one 'bad' signing a year on the playing side then it pays for itself ten times over.

THat's not me saying it definitely would do that either, but it'd be nice not to fall into the mistake of signing McGuiness, Chong, Matos et al on a whim when we've exhausted all other options.

 

[Carlton Blade]

It shows it’s not a panacea.
The blind acceptance that a DoF is the answer is hilarious

I've never said that. I've explicitly said the opposite. But it gives you a better chance of repeatable success

 

[Carlton Blade]

Don’t see why that would be different with a DoF

That makes no sense. A DoF wouldn't want United to change structure to bring in a DoF + qualified support?

 

[Kenilworth]

It's often written, and largely true that we have owners who have very little football knowledge. So they struggle making top level football based decisions on the future and direction of the club.
How do you think that is best solved?

Are you saying that none of that can happen without a DoF?

Clearly it needs people with knowledge of the game and how to run a top league football club.
We had Derek Dooley for years to give the board a footballing perspective. We don’t have a DD figure, now. But he wasn’t a DoF, just a very well connected and hugely respected football man, steeped in Sheffield football history and a long term United man.

My perspective is that you can have a perfectly viable football club with football experts in a structure that doesn’t necessitate a DoF. My contention is that many people are stating that a DoF is the answer on pure speculation and a desire to “try summat different”
How does it make any change?
It’s one more person, who has authority but without accountability. That’s why you get a coach/ manager merrygoround at clubs who have an apparently untouchable DoF.

What’s the difference between a manager run club where the manager has a team around them to cover the different roles. A structure where the manager is closer to the board and responsible to the board. A DoF is effectively the board’s man in the middle and unless the club is hugely complicated (which ours isn’t compared to those clubs at the apex of the PL) then what purpose does it have?

 

[Kenilworth]

I've never said that. I've explicitly said the opposite. But it gives you a better chance of repeatable success

How so?
Where does it illustrate repeatable success?

 

[Kenilworth]

That makes no sense. A DoF wouldn't want United to change structure to bring in a DoF + qualified support?

Why can’t a manager bring in qualified support?
Do you think Wilder hasn’t got any support?
He has people of a football qualification and people with other skillls. What would a DoF do that makes the difference ?
An extra person with authority but no accountability for the playing side? Where managers and coaches go through a revolving door based on points won or lost?
It’s always a short term measure.
I don’t see it as a long term strategy unless it’s tied to a whole programme of infrastructure changes and a very large investment in that.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Are you saying that none of that can happen without a DoF?

Clearly it needs people with knowledge of the game and how to run a top league football club.
We had Derek Dooley for years to give the board a footballing perspective. We don’t have a DD figure, now. But he wasn’t a DoF, just a very well connected and hugely respected football man, steeped in Sheffield football history and a long term United man.

My perspective is that you can have a perfectly viable football club with football experts in a structure that doesn’t necessitate a DoF. My contention is that many people are stating that a DoF is the answer on pure speculation and a desire to “try summat different”
How does it make any change?
It’s one more person, who has authority but without accountability. That’s why you get a coach/ manager merrygoround at clubs who have an apparently untouchable DoF.

What’s the difference between a manager run club where the manager has a team around them to cover the different roles. A structure where the manager is closer to the board and responsible to the board. A DoF is effectively the board’s man in the middle and unless the club is hugely complicated (which ours isn’t compared to those clubs at the apex of the PL) then what purpose does it have?

In that example. Derek Dooley is exactly what a director football is. It just wasn't called that then.
Who is supposed to do that now?

 

[Carlton Blade]

How so?
Where does it illustrate repeatable success?

Lets leave it. It's the exact same conversation again. You think 1 person i charge of everything, inckuding 1st team results is better ththan a group of qualified and experienced people focused on their areas of expertise being led by someone who's putting a long term plan in place as well as aiding the current person in charge of results. You're view won't change, neither will mine

 

[Carlton Blade]

Why can’t a manager bring in qualified support?
Do you think Wilder hasn’t got any support?
He has people of a football qualification and people with other skillls. What would a DoF do that makes the difference ?
An extra person with authority but no accountability for the playing side? Where managers and coaches go through a revolving door based on points won or lost?
It’s always a short term measure.
I don’t see it as a long term strategy unless it’s tied to a whole programme of infrastructure changes and a very large investment in that.

Me repeating the same argument is pretty pointless now

 

[The Fox]

Can't think why but this sprung to mind .

 

[FriethBlade]

In that example. Derek Dooley is exactly what a director football is. It just wasn't called that then.
Who is supposed to do that now?

Wilder is...and what I dont understand is why he isnt behind the bar on the South Stand pulling pints at half time too.

Anyone who cant see that a long term strategy playing and player wise implemented by someone high up wouldn't be a better solution than flip flopping when we change managers is willfully blind or Wilder or Bettis's best mate. By establishing that structure you improve your chances of long term success and reduce the likelihood of wasting money like we have now Wilder is back and doesn't fancy any of the Selles era signings.

Why exactly does anyone think Brentford and Brighton are punching way above their weight and that it doesn't seem to matter what manager they have? Did Andrews have to gut the Brentford squad when he came in? No...and its because he was brought in to manage to their long term process which is implemented higher up the club. He just has to coach the players that are there.

But dont worry we will be reight so long a Wilder is here til hes 90, in fact maybe the DoF role is one for him.

 

[10p]

A major element of a DOF's job would be to identify who would potentially be the next manager if/when the current one goes either voluntarily or sacked. Wilder can't reasonably be expected to do that.

 

[Kenilworth]

Wilder is...and what I dont understand is why he isnt behind the bar on the South Stand pulling pints at half time too.

Anyone who cant see that a long term strategy playing and player wise implemented by someone high up wouldn't be a better solution than flip flopping when we change managers is willfully blind or Wilder or Bettis's best mate. By establishing that structure you improve your chances of long term success and reduce the likelihood of wasting money like we have now Wilder is back and doesn't fancy any of the Selles era signings.

Why exactly does anyone think Brentford and Brighton are punching way above their weight and that it doesn't seem to matter what manager they have? Did Andrews have to gut the Brentford squad when he came in? No...and its because he was brought in to manage to their long term process which is implemented higher up the club. He just has to coach the players that are there.

But dont worry we will be reight so long a Wilder is here til hes 90, in fact maybe the DoF role is one for him.

Brighton and Brentford are no where near a comparator to us. They invested in a huge infrastructure to get their recruitment model in line with a long term strategy. We are nowhere near that. If we were I’d be more conciliatory to the DoF model. As it is we are based on a manager model and that’s where we are. Changing one man without the rest is pure fantasy.

 

[Kenilworth]

Me repeating the same argument is pretty pointless now

At least we’re consistent

 

[Kenilworth]

In that example. Derek Dooley is exactly what a director football is. It just wasn't called that then.
Who is supposed to do that now?

He wasn’t.
He had no control over recruitment.
He was a voice of reason.
No direct decision making capability but a loud voice of sanity and consistency. He is sorely missed but let’s not kid ourselves he’s what a modern DoF is. He just wasn’t.

 

[Kenilworth]

Personally I'd look at it the other way - if it saves us one 'bad' signing a year on the playing side then it pays for itself ten times over.

THat's not me saying it definitely would do that either, but it'd be nice not to fall into the mistake of signing McGuiness, Chong, Matos et al on a whim when we've exhausted all other options.

Why would it?
Bord didn’t
Why would a DoF be immune to mistakes. If anything it may well be worse. We might just have a collection of players that satisfy a list of criteria but have the bollocks of a veal calf.

This players you mentioned were signed on the similar basis to a DoF.

Wilder didn’t sign any of those. They are all shite.

 

[Kenilworth]

Me repeating the same argument is pretty pointless now

So we have diametrically opposed opinions on this subject. That’s good

 

[Kenilworth]

A major element of a DOF's job would be to identify who would potentially be the next manager if/when the current one goes either voluntarily or sacked. Wilder can't reasonably be expected to do that.

And that results in a merry go round of coaches and managers because the DoF is never at fault, the next coach or manager is. That’s exactly why I keep mentioning Watford but others dismiss that as it doesn’t suit their agenda. However, it is a completely analogous example of what happens to a similar sized club when you rely on a DoF structure but you do it half arsed. Anyone confident COH won’t be half arsed on this one? They thought Selles would be a golden goose FFS.

 

[John Cutsbushes]

A major element of a DOF's job would be to identify who would potentially be the next manager if/when the current one goes either voluntarily or sacked. Wilder can't reasonably be expected to do that.

Well the first time he left he recommended Swanseas Steve Cooper so he's not a bad judge

 

[FriethBlade]

Brighton and Brentford are no where near a comparator to us. They invested in a huge infrastructure to get their recruitment model in line with a long term strategy. We are nowhere near that. If we were I’d be more conciliatory to the DoF model. As it is we are based on a manager model and that’s where we are. Changing one man without the rest is pure fantasy.

Brentford invested fuck all in infrastructure before building their new stadium which has nothing to do with recriitment. They closed their academy down which was basically a park with a shed and took players released from cat one academies in London.

We seem to have no long term strategy, we have a talent factory of an academy but because it's not cat one we lose the best up and coming talent to larger academies. At the same time we seem reluctant to invest in the academy (Dore on hold indefinitely) yet are perfectly happy to spunk millions on dross like Cannon, Matos, McGuiness et al.

Its this muddled thinking that needs sorting out and Wilder cant do it all

 

[Kenilworth]

Brentford invested fuck all in infrastructure before building their new stadium which has nothing to do with recriitment. They closed their academy down which was basically a park with a shed and took players released from cat one academies in London.

We seem to have no long term strategy, we have a talent factory of an academy but because it's not cat one we lose the best up and coming talent to larger academies. At the same time we seem reluctant to invest in the academy (Dore on hold indefinitely) yet are perfectly happy to spunk millions on dross like Cannon, Matos, McGuiness et al.

Its this muddled thinking that needs sorting out and Wilder cant do it all

So Brentford never had a huge model for recruitment, then?
Wow!
There’s a reason they scraped their academy.

The story behind Brentford’s meteoric rise to the Premier League - The Tufts Daily

Six seasons ago, Brentford F.C. found itself in the third tier of English football. Today, after a 74-year absence from the top flight, the small club from West London is mid-table in the Premier League.

www.tuftsdaily.com

 

[FriethBlade]

So Brentford never had a huge model for recruitment, then?
Wow!

Of course they do....they have a strategy...unlike us who rely on the likes of Hoyland to set our recruitment strategy as there is nobody higher up doing it.
Anyway as others have said it time to stop debating with someone who is clearly happy with how we go about recruiting. I'll leave it there.

 

[Kenilworth]

Of course they do....they have a strategy...unlike us who rely on the likes of Hoyland to set our recruitment strategy as there is nobody higher up doing it.
Anyway as others have said it time to stop debating with someone who is clearly happy with how we go about recruiting. I'll leave it there.

Plenty of room for improvement I just don’t believe a DOF is the answer.
Don’t conflate issues to make a non existent whole.
We have a superb academy for a Cat 2 but it needs a lot of work and money to get it to Cat 1. A DoF does not enhance that, unless there is a long term plan of investment to go with it. It’s not hard to understand.

 

[KMC-1889]

Why can’t a manager bring in qualified support?
Do you think Wilder hasn’t got any support?
He has people of a football qualification and people with other skillls. What would a DoF do that makes the difference ?

This is the problem. Almost all of the structure at the club has been put in place by Wilder, or owes their career to Wilder. In any elite level organisation you need people around the table who are willing to challenge each other and question established ways of working, especially when those ways aren’t working any more.

We’ve seen how chippy Wilder gets the second he comes in for any criticism, even if the criticism is justified and constructive. He’s sniped at ‘punters’, pundits, other managers, players, journos, the lot. Do you imagine he’s any more reserved behind closed doors?

So now you’ve got a team of people that are unlikely to gain employment at a similar level should they leave United. Their careers depend on wilder being in the building. This is why a lot of us are frustrated and believe the existing structure needs to be modernised otherwise we’ll get left behind.

There is so much to do at a modern football club that it cannot be the responsibility of one person, which is why CEOs separate themselves from the football side by employing a technical board. I work for one of the countries largest food production companies, our CEO wouldn’t know which end of the oven the bread goes in, but he doesn’t need too because he’s employed an army of people that understand the equipment, the product and the customer better than he ever could. We have a huge, varied range of experience in our management structure of people that have worked in different environments and bring best practices to the group and challenge established ways of working.

Our squad is an absolute mess, with the third ‘rebuild’ needed in as many years. This is where a technical board can deliver its best work. As much as I wanted Selles to succeed he was doomed to fail. What someone should have done is identified what worked well in wilder’s first stint and identified a manager with similar characteristics, someone like Neil, Eustace (Heckingbottom!), or be developing someone through the youth ranks that can take over (Hecky previously, or Ekhart at Saints).

Wilder will only care about the season in front of him, because his job depends on it, and if doesn’t then we’re really in trouble because that way lays complacency and managed decline. He doesn’t give a shit about United in 5 years, 10 years or 15 years. Thats proven by his behaviour every time he’s been sacked previously.

 

[FriethBlade]

This is the problem. Almost all of the structure at the club has been put in place by Wilder, or owes their career to Wilder. In any elite level organisation you need people around the table who are willing to challenge each other and question established ways of working, especially when those ways aren’t working any more.

We’ve seen how chippy Wilder gets the second he comes in for any criticism, even if the criticism is justified and constructive. He’s sniped at ‘punters’, pundits, other managers, players, journos, the lot. Do you imagine he’s any more reserved behind closed doors?

So now you’ve got a team of people that are unlikely to gain employment at a similar level should they leave United. Their careers depend on wilder being in the building. This is why a lot of us are frustrated and believe the existing structure needs to be modernised otherwise we’ll get left behind.

There is so much to do at a modern football club that it cannot be the responsibility of one person, which is why CEOs separate themselves from the football side by employing a technical board. I work for one of the countries largest food production companies, our CEO wouldn’t know which end of the oven the bread goes in, but he doesn’t need too because he’s employed an army of people that understand the equipment, the product and the customer better than he ever could. We have a huge, varied range of experience in our management structure of people that have worked in different environments and bring best practices to the group and challenge established ways of working.

Our squad is an absolute mess, with the third ‘rebuild’ needed in as many years. This is where a technical board can deliver its best work. As much as I wanted Selles to succeed he was doomed to fail. What someone should have done is identified what worked well in wilder’s first stint and identified a manager with similar characteristics, someone like Neil, Eustace (Heckingbottom!), or be developing someone through the youth ranks that can take over (Hecky previously, or Ekhart at Saints).

Wilder will only care about the season in front of him, because his job depends on it, and if doesn’t then we’re really in trouble because that way lays complacency and managed decline. He doesn’t give a shit about United in 5 years, 10 years or 15 years. Thats proven by his behaviour every time he’s been sacked previously.

Dont try reason mate it's like banging your head against a brick wall with him.

 

[jt64]

Brighton and Brentford are no where near a comparator to us. They invested in a huge infrastructure to get their recruitment model in line with a long term strategy. We are nowhere near that.

We are not anywhere near something that works. So let's not try to move towards something that works and just keep doing the same shit and expecting different results

 

[Danetheblade]

We are not anywhere near something that works. So let's not try to move towards something that works and just keep doing the same shit and expecting different results

Yeah why not? Nothing good can come from trying to modernise the club.

 

[Champagneblade]

Are you saying that none of that can happen without a DoF?

Clearly it needs people with knowledge of the game and how to run a top league football club.
We had Derek Dooley for years to give the board a footballing perspective. We don’t have a DD figure, now. But he wasn’t a DoF, just a very well connected and hugely respected football man, steeped in Sheffield football history and a long term United man.

My perspective is that you can have a perfectly viable football club with football experts in a structure that doesn’t necessitate a DoF. My contention is that many people are stating that a DoF is the answer on pure speculation and a desire to “try summat different”
How does it make any change?
It’s one more person, who has authority but without accountability. That’s why you get a coach/ manager merrygoround at clubs who have an apparently untouchable DoF.

What’s the difference between a manager run club where the manager has a team around them to cover the different roles. A structure where the manager is closer to the board and responsible to the board. A DoF is effectively the board’s man in the middle and unless the club is hugely complicated (which ours isn’t compared to those clubs at the apex of the PL) then what purpose does it have?

Say we have a DoF. Mikey Allen applies and gets it or Jamie Hoyland does.

How does it change us getting Chong and McGuinness?

It doesn’t.

You’ve got to hire good people and hold them accoubtable.

DoF, Head of Recruitment, Captain Shitbag. Call them what you want. Unless they are any good it won’t matter.

DoF isn’t some silver bullet.

Spurs have a DoF. How are they doing? It was a DoF that conpletely wasted the 100m they got for Bale.

 

[Champagneblade]

So Brentford never had a huge model for recruitment, then?
Wow!
There’s a reason they scraped their academy.

The story behind Brentford’s meteoric rise to the Premier League - The Tufts Daily

Six seasons ago, Brentford F.C. found itself in the third tier of English football. Today, after a 74-year absence from the top flight, the small club from West London is mid-table in the Premier League.

www.tuftsdaily.com

Brentford, often sighted, is a pointless conparator.

Their owner owns a huge sports betting firm and the football club piggy backs off that.

To match that you’d have to build a huge sports betting firm as a side business first.

Tony Bloom, incredibly wealthy, mad Brighton fan too. Also not the same.