New head scout - Jamie Hoyland

[SwissBlade]

Although Allen’s role is ‘Head of Recruitment’ he is frequently (quite condescendingly in my opinion) referred to as ‘the data guy’ by wilder & Bettis, so I’m not sure how much of a say he has in proceedings.

It’s quite clear how our recruitment works and it’s nothing to do with finding the best players at good value, it’s about speaking to agents. I’m not sure you need Hoyland or Allen for that.

Mike Allen replaced Paul Mitchell who was always spoken about by Wilder. Allen is much more data driven first, working with the scouts to then watch the players

I’m not sure from your posts that you’re clear on how our recruitment process works.

Allen and Hoyland are certainly an integral part of the process.

 

[KMC-1889]

Chief scouts don't sign players, and they certainly don't negotiate the fees for those players. Blaming the scout for Everton overpaying for Ben Godfrey (who, before his injuries, was decent and went on to play for England) is silly. It's even sillier to blame him for which youth players get promoted to the first team.

It's also fascinating that a guy who worked in the England set up for years and then spent the best part of a decade at a Premier League club is apparently unqualified to work for Sheffield United.

a significant majority of Everton’s transfers during that period were unmitigated disasters. He might not have been involved in negotiations but it’s his job to provide a scouting report to the board/manager and given a recommendation on whether or not the player should be signed.

What’s become more obvious the more you dig into is that our recruitment process is:

• Wilder needs a player
• Phone Wasserman, CAA & USG
• Get a client list from them of players who fancy a move
• let Hoyland & Allen go through the list and pick some players.

Absolutely shambolic for a club at our supposed level.

 

[Keen Blade]

In terms of recruitment , there's the 3 little Bs at one end of the spectrum (which has helped keep them in the PL) and at the other end , there's us , with a shitshow for recruitment.
But the recruitment is a symptom of a very poor corporate control structure , starting with owners who are distant & ignorant , through Bettis who has no real control over the manager (not even the recruitment of the manager Selles) , and has overseen some of the most financially harmful player fees & wages & loan contracts that have ever happened.
My hope that the new owners would come in and "clean house" was ill-founded.
Any two sensible fans picked at random could have done a better job.
Of the players purchased , which have increased in value ?
We have literally poured £ away in fees ,

The new owners mantra is
"We survive by trading players".
On the evidence so far , they won't be surviving very long.

 

[TJ blade]

He was a senior FA Scout for Roy Hodgson when he was England manager. He was kept on for a spell by Southgate and also worked for the Technical team for the EPL.

What further experience or qualifications should he have for the Chief Scout role that he is missing?

Hes just rubbish at it

 

[Rodley]

Mike Allen replaced Paul Mitchell who was always spoken about by Wilder. Allen is much more data driven first, working with the scouts to then watch the players

I’m not sure from your posts that you’re clear on how our recruitment process works.

Allen and Hoyland are certainly an integral part of the process.

It’s fan fiction, we’re all guilty of filling in the blanks when we just want a moan.

 

[SwissBlade]

It’s fan fiction, we’re all guilty of filling in the blanks when we just want a moan.

There's a minority of fans that do that, bit i don't think we're all guilty of it. There really isn't an excuse for not doing the research and finding out who does what. Its not overly complicated. To put the blame at Hoylands door for all recruitment at united, justifying it with a list of signings that Everton made during his time at Everton as well is mental. The guy is the Chief scout at United and seems that was his role at Everton. Furthermore, Everton look like they had a DoF as well. So his role was even more diluted there.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that this summers recruitment went well and Hoyland will have played a part in that. I can't say with certainty that we had a comittee doing the recruiting, but in Wilders previous reign we had something like a committee and Wilder talks now about contract negotiations being out of his remit, so its a fair guess that the manager / head coach is involved with identifying players he wants and there are a number of people in the process analysing whether they would be worth the risk. I don't doubt that Selles would've had some role as well.

What is clear from the summer is that whoever was involved, the process failed, we relied too heavily on future investments through data and AI, Bord was involved, but he no longer is. Bettis and Wilder have made some comments in recent weeks / months.

We fans can sit here and have a go at anyone we want, but if you're going to call someone out for doing a shit job, at least make sure there is some accuracy in the justification...

 

[Espania blade]

I've posted this before somewhere but a really good listen is Steven Bartlett's (Dragons den) podcast on Utube "the diary of a CEO" where he interviews the ex Data manager of Liverpool FC, it's fascinating what goes into player recruitment not just data but how all different facets come together to recruit the right players - and how sometimes they get it wrong! They use the same process to select a new manager
or "Slott" down to continued playing style of previous manager and temperament etc,
Well worth a listen and you might learn something!

 

[CrookesBlade]

It’s fan fiction, we’re all guilty of filling in the blanks when we just want a moan.

Aye, laying the blame for Godfrey, Ogbene, Ings, McGuinness etc at Hoyland’s door is a bit rich. How much scouting do the likes of them actually require?

Does Hoyland get the credit for Riedewald Bamford and Tanganga?

It’s fairly obvious what happened in the summer…..mad man tries to do recruitment by AI, that doesn’t work, we panic and lacking a strong voice from the coaching side we just opt for whoever we can get from the usual pool of championship players and free agents.

 

[Rodley]

Maybe a bit broader experience than looking at English youth players?

He was European Senior Scout for a spell at Everton, focusing exclusively on players on the continent.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Anyone else remember Hoyland as a player? I could never work out what he did, apart from pop up out of nowhere every now and then to score a goal.

The Invisible Man.

 

[Sean Thornton]

In terms of recruitment , there's the 3 little Bs at one end of the spectrum (which has helped keep them in the PL) and at the other end , there's us , with a shitshow for recruitment.
But the recruitment is a symptom of a very poor corporate control structure , starting with owners who are distant & ignorant , through Bettis who has no real control over the manager (not even the recruitment of the manager Selles) , and has overseen some of the most financially harmful player fees & wages & loan contracts that have ever happened.
My hope that the new owners would come in and "clean house" was ill-founded.
Any two sensible fans picked at random could have done a better job.
Of the players purchased , which have increased in value ?
We have literally poured £ away in fees ,

The new owners mantra is
"We survive by trading players".
On the evidence so far , they won't be surviving very long.

“Any two sensible fans picked at random could have done a better job”

Always the mantra of the terminally stupid.

 

[Champagneblade]

Anyone else remember Hoyland as a player? I could never work out what he did, apart from pop up out of nowhere every now and then to score a goal.

He did the unseen work, long before Dean Hammond made it fashionable!

 

[Striker]

Strongly disagree with this.

It should be a committee, with the manager defining the attributes he needs for his team and the scouting/data team finding players to meet that profile to submit back to the manager and CEO for approval.

Look at the mess that teams get themselves into recruiting for a manager that isn’t there 18 months later. It needs to be a balanced approach in the best long term interests of club.

Bet you wouldn't disagree if you were the manager and got sacked because somebody had signed you a load of shite.
Look at the mess we got in when our "committee" signed Godfrey, Barrie,Mcguinees, Chong, etc

 

[KMC-1889]

Bet you wouldn't disagree if you were the manager and got sacked because somebody had signed you a load of shite.
Look at the mess we got in when our "committee" signed Godfrey, Barrie,Mcguinees, Chong, etc

How it works at other clubs:

• manager identities gaps in his squad, defines a profile he needs
• scouting/data team find a list of players that fit that profile
• manager reviews and submits to DoF/CEO.
• DoF/CEO do the deal.

How it works at United:

• manager needs a player
• manager/CEO rings agents
• agents send over a list of clients
• Scout/Head of Recruitment pick from the list.
• CEO does a deal

This is a criticism of the club structure, not the manager, who is having to step into the gaps left by the ineptitude of the people around him.

People like to suggest wilder has his grubby mitts all over the process and the hiring and firing of back room staff, which if it’s true he’s just as culpable as the rest, but I’m trying to him the benefit of the doubt.

The manager shouldn’t be lord and master over the club, it leads to chaos and failure. Even Man Utd can’t recover from that kind of setup with all their money and talent.

 

[The Crab]

There's a minority of fans that do that, bit i don't think we're all guilty of it. There really isn't an excuse for not doing the research and finding out who does what. Its not overly complicated. To put the blame at Hoylands door for all recruitment at united, justifying it with a list of signings that Everton made during his time at Everton as well is mental. The guy is the Chief scout at United and seems that was his role at Everton. Furthermore, Everton look like they had a DoF as well. So his role was even more diluted there.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that this summers recruitment went well and Hoyland will have played a part in that. I can't say with certainty that we had a comittee doing the recruiting, but in Wilders previous reign we had something like a committee and Wilder talks now about contract negotiations being out of his remit, so its a fair guess that the manager / head coach is involved with identifying players he wants and there are a number of people in the process analysing whether they would be worth the risk. I don't doubt that Selles would've had some role as well.

What is clear from the summer is that whoever was involved, the process failed, we relied too heavily on future investments through data and AI, Bord was involved, but he no longer is. Bettis and Wilder have made some comments in recent weeks / months.

We fans can sit here and have a go at anyone we want, but if you're going to call someone out for doing a shit job, at least make sure there is some accuracy in the justification...

Our recruitment committee

 

[Carlton Blade]

I think it's fair to say that the AI approach was a poorly conceived disaster and that the stuff that came after it might have been even more costly.

Whoever was in charge this summer, should no longer be involved

 

[KMC-1889]

I think it's fair to say that the AI approach was a poorly conceived disaster and that the stuff that came after it might have been even more costly.

Whoever was in charge this summer, should no longer be involved

Heaven forbid anyone at the club takes any responsibility and learn from it though. Best to blame Short Circuit and Selles and move on.

Short Circuit is a red herring. We’ve been shit at recruitment for half a decade and have wasted the premier league riches we strived for.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Heaven forbid anyone at the club takes any responsibility and learn from it though. Best to blame Short Circuit and Selles and move on.

Short Circuit is a red herring. We’ve been shit at recruitment for half a decade and have wasted the premier league riches we strived for.

We don't have a plan, a 'type' of player we seem to want. Very difficult to get things right when you don't build up a bank of knowledge by signing players who match certain criteria.

Players at our level are not 'great' independent of circumstances. Those players are in the PL. You should be looking at consistent traits or characteristics, then backing your coaching to develop more.

How the same team can sign Souttar and JRS one summer, but Tanganga and Chong the next baffles me. Again, independent of their overall ability, they just don't do the same things

 

[Tazzy]

Wilder picking players

 

[DifferentClass]

He was a senior FA Scout for Roy Hodgson when he was England manager. He was kept on for a spell by Southgate and also worked for the Technical team for the EPL.

What further experience or qualifications should he have for the Chief Scout role that he is missing?

How did I forget Woy were England manager?

 

[Geordie Blade]

Anyone else remember Hoyland as a player? I could never work out what he did, apart from pop up out of nowhere every now and then to score a goal.

He helped keep United in the top flight for four seasons, despite us being hugely underfunded at the time.

 

[gordoncharles]

It’s fairly obvious what happened in the summer…..mad man tries to do recruitment by AI, that doesn’t work, we panic and lacking a strong voice from the coaching side we just opt for whoever we can get from the usual pool of championship players and free agents.

Not entirely.

That Bindon and Barry came in would have been almost entirely down to Selles.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He helped keep United in the top flight for four seasons, despite us being hugely underfunded at the time.

IIRC he never managed more than 20 league games in a season.

 

[Geordie Blade]

IIRC he never managed more than 20 league games in a season.

Hence why I said "helped". With our budget in those years, everyone had to chip in and put in more effort than the opposition every week. Hoyland did that, although armchair experts (who also criticed John Gannon for the same thing) liked to think that they knew better.

 

[Keen Blade]

“Any two sensible fans picked at random could have done a better job”

Always the mantra of the terminally stupid.

Don't you recognise a bit of humourous hyperbole to make a point ?
Anyway ,
How come we don't hear from you about the football side of things ?
Do you just lurk around ,
Waiting for your chance to pour a bit of acidic scorn ?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Hence why I said "helped". With our budget in those years, everyone had to chip in and put in more effort than the opposition every week. Hoyland did that, although armchair experts (who also criticed John Gannon for the same thing) liked to think that they knew better.

He didn’t hold a place down because he wasn’t very good. His best spell was just before he fell out of favour with Basset. He’d been playing centre back.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Don't you recognise a bit of humourous hyperbole to make a point ?
Anyway ,
How come we don't hear from you about the football side of things ?
Do you just lurk around ,
Waiting for your chance to pour a bit of acidic scorn ?

I can’t help what you post but l can comment on it.

Thought you may get used to having your detailed analyses of, well, anything “Bettis is shit” with lots and lots of other words. Your track record of understanding threads isn’t great let’s be honest.

Football, l do. More often than not though whilst at the game. You should try it.

 

[Geordie Blade]

He didn’t hold a place down because he wasn’t very good. His best spell was just before he fell out of favour with Basset. He’d been playing centre back.

I didn't say he was 'very good'. I said that he helped us to stay in the top flight for four seasons, which he did. Anyone playing in that limited team at the time must have been doing something right to get enough points to stay up three times.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I didn't say he was 'very good'. I said that he helped us to stay in the top flight for four seasons, which he did. Anyone playing in that limited team at the time must have been doing something right to get enough points to stay up three times.

And l never said you did. I said he wasn’t very good. That’s a big difference. Others, far better players managed far more appearances. Anyone with a handful could be said to have helped us. It’s the nature of the job.

 

[Geordie Blade]

And l never said you did. I said he wasn’t very good. That’s a big difference. Others, far better players managed far more appearances. Anyone with a handful could be said to have helped us. It’s the nature of the job.

Every squad needs a mix of star players, solid regulars, squad players and emergency back-ups. Hoyland was a decent squad player, particularly given our budget at the time (see also Paul Rogers, Mike Lake etc.). The original implication from Baltic Blade was that he didn't really do anything (I think you're suggesting the same). I disagree.