Well done lads, Forest x

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I assume are your feelings towards Scargill.
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Regardless of the rights and wrongs (or rights and lefts if you like), I just regard Scargill as a smug, cynical, self-serving bastard who exploited the NUM to promote his own personal agenda much in the way that senior party officials in the Communist party in the USSR always managed to their own "datchas" (sp) in the Crimea.
 
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WalthamstowBlade said:
I remember watching an England team featuring Darius Vassell draw 2-2 with Macedonia. "Not the first time", I observed to the regulars in The Goat, "that Darius has come a cropper at the hands of the Macedonians".

The look on every face said 'What a wanker'.
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Sound like a bunch of Philistine's Walthnstow , Education is wasted on the working class . ;)
 
Darren said:
Even on Scargill's argument the Notts miners were not scabs. He could have legally called a strike two ways: via a national ballot, which he didn't call or via each area calling out is members seperately to create a number of seperate area strikes which the cumulative effect of a national strike.

Scargill went down the latter route. Notts had an area ballot and voted massively against striking. The members who worked thus abided by the democratic decision of their area. If there had been a national ballot with a majority voting for a strike, miners going into work in Notts or anywhere else would then have been scabs. As there was no such ballot, the only scabs were the ones who went to work in areas (like Yorks) that voted to strike.

Scargill wanted to have it both ways. He thought he would lose a national ballot (I think he would have won it), so didn't call one but still wanted those areas who voted againsts striking to come out. He really was hopeless.
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Well that's your legal argument sorted Darren, though there are plenty of counter arguments to that, it was more the moral issue of who was a 'scab' and who wasn't.
A lot of hardliners at the pit where I worked declared anyone who broke the strike by even one day was a scab, very black and white!
There were 75 people at my pit who went back to work before the strike ended. Amongst those guys were some good, solid honourable blokes, but differing circumstances forced them back to work, I for one could not broad brush these people and felt very sorry indeed for some of the individuals and never took part in the sometimes cruel treatment they received after the strike (this resulted in being shunned by the hardliners in some cases).
Before the strike, the pit was a cruel environment with a great atmosphere in which to work, after the strike it was an awful, polluted atmosphere of tension and mistrust.
Despite all that and whether one agreed with ballot or no ballot, I believe we were forced to strike. Both Thatcher and Scargill wanted this face off and whether the miners liked it or not, the fight was always going to happen and the pits were going to close and industry decimated. We had to take it to a fight or lay down and die. We lost, but went down fighting, better than just rolling over in my view. Whether our tactics were right is still open to debate today but when the establishment mobilises every force it has against you, there is only one winner......
 
mattbianco1 said:
I'm not denying it was a difficult time and Ms. Thatcher did her upmost best to royally fuck up the north of England - but to be part of the strike and in support of it, then get labelled a scab and be driven out of your own home because you can no longer afford to live is a tad excessive do you not think? To have to go to school and get beat up everyday because your dad has gone back to work in order to put food on the table and electricity in the house. If you think that behaviour is good then i'm sorry, we have very different views.

And what about the poor taxi driver that had a concrete post planted through his head just because he was picking a non-striking miner up?
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Oh dear Matt.... Did I say that behaviour was 'good' as you so state? I'll not repeat myself so read my reply to Darren to get some sort of answer on that point.
The taxi driver incident was awful, one that still makes me shudder, but so was David Jones and Joe Green's deaths on the other side of the coin.
I think what I was trying to say was that summing up the strike by quoting anecdotal incidents, of which there were thousands on both sides of the argument, doesn't even scratch the surface.
I still believe we were right to try and fight what was inevitably going to happen to the coal industry, but had I known beforehand what that year was going to throw up nationwide.....well, that's another story....
 
BornOnShoreham said:
Regardless of the rights and wrongs (or rights and lefts if you like), I just regard Scargill as a smug, cynical, self-serving bastard who exploited the NUM to promote his own personal agenda much in the way that senior party officials in the Communist party in the USSR always managed to their own "datchas" (sp) in the Crimea.
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Even now, I'm still trying to come to some firm opinion on him. I've read, watched and researched on him over the years but still can't decide.
 
LSF said:
Oh dear Matt.... Did I say that behaviour was 'good' as you so state? I'll not repeat myself so read my reply to Darren to get some sort of answer on that point.
The taxi driver incident was awful, one that still makes me shudder, but so was David Jones and Joe Green's deaths on the other side of the coin.
I think what I was trying to say was that summing up the strike by quoting anecdotal incidents, of which there were thousands on both sides of the argument, doesn't even scratch the surface.
I still believe we were right to try and fight what was inevitably going to happen to the coal industry, but had I known beforehand what that year was going to throw up nationwide.....well, that's another story....
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Brilliant post.
 
LSF said:
Well that's your legal argument sorted Darren, though there are plenty of counter arguments to that, it was more the moral issue of who was a 'scab' and who wasn't.
A lot of hardliners at the pit where I worked declared anyone who broke the strike by even one day was a scab, very black and white!
There were 75 people at my pit who went back to work before the strike ended. Amongst those guys were some good, solid honourable blokes, but differing circumstances forced them back to work, I for one could not broad brush these people and felt very sorry indeed for some of the individuals and never took part in the sometimes cruel treatment they received after the strike (this resulted in being shunned by the hardliners in some cases).
Before the strike, the pit was a cruel environment with a great atmosphere in which to work, after the strike it was an awful, polluted atmosphere of tension and mistrust.
Despite all that and whether one agreed with ballot or no ballot, I believe we were forced to strike. Both Thatcher and Scargill wanted this face off and whether the miners liked it or not, the fight was always going to happen and the pits were going to close and industry decimated. We had to take it to a fight or lay down and die. We lost, but went down fighting, better than just rolling over in my view. Whether our tactics were right is still open to debate today but when the establishment mobilises every force it has against you, there is only one winner......
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I agree with you that the miners should have fought. My beef is with the leadership and the tactics. By not having a ballot, Scargill just gave the moral high ground to the miners' opponents. It meant that those who didn't want to strike anyway could say that they were the democrats and the strikers were the anti-democrats. Had there been a national strike ballot which went in favour of a strike (as opinion polls at the time suggested it would), the miners negotiating position would have beem immeasurably strengthed and, in my view, the moral pressure on the Notts miners would have been such that most of them would have come out. The strike would have then probably have been settled on the basis of a slowing down of the pit closure programme and various other goodies for the miners.

Of course, all this pre-supposes a Gormely type leadership which looked to practical and tangible gains, not the leadership of someone who thought it was 1917 St Petersburg. What is interesting is that Scargill was elected president of the NUM in 1981 with 71% of the vote, which does show that the miners as a whole were rather in favour of his sort of leadership. Perhaps people get the leaders they deserve :-(
 
LSF said:
There were 75 people at my pit who went back to work before the strike ended. Amongst those guys were some good, solid honourable blokes, but differing circumstances forced them back to work, I for one could not broad brush these people and felt very sorry indeed for some of the individuals and never took part in the sometimes cruel treatment they received after the strike (this resulted in being shunned by the hardliners in some cases).
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If these people went back to work, whatever their circumstances, then they're "scabs", surely? That's the black and white narrow mindedness of the saying/chant and the whole point to this discussion from the start.

You can't pick and choose the "scabs". If they went back to work they're "scabs" as are all Nottingham Forest fans apparently, regardless of whether they were for or against the strike.

As Darren has stated above, had it gone to a ballot, the voting would've probably been in favour of the strike and so a national strike would've been in place

This table backs up Darrens theory that the majority were for the strike.

strike.png
 
It's simple really.
Scargill was a Marxist who wanted a change of government.
That's not what unions are for.
He was a disaster, he still is, as recent events show.
 
mattbianco1 said:
If these people went back to work, whatever their circumstances, then they're "scabs", surely? That's the black and white narrow mindedness of the saying/chant and the whole point to this discussion from the start.

You can't pick and choose the "scabs". If they went back to work they're "scabs" as are all Nottingham Forest fans apparently, regardless of whether they were for or against the strike.

As Darren has stated above, had it gone to a ballot, the voting would've probably been in favour of the strike and so a national strike would've been in place

This table backs up Darrens theory that the majority were for the strike.

View attachment 7288
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Well you must be a hardliner then if you see it in such black and white terms?
From my viewpoint and in depth experience of what went off in 84/85, for what its worth....

Chanting 'Scab' at Forest or any other Notts related team, is typical of the mob mentality of football crowds. I've never done it and am certain I never will.

I don't regard blokes who went back to work after long periods of being on strike as scabs. If hardliners want to, that's their look out.

If he'd gone to a ballot, the outcome would have been exactly the same and Notts would have found some excuse to return to work asap.

If NACODS had shown some bollocks, then the outcome may well have been totally different.

Thatcher was an out and out twat!
 
Darren said:
I agree with you that the miners should have fought. My beef is with the leadership and the tactics. By not having a ballot, Scargill just gave the moral high ground to the miners' opponents. It meant that those who didn't want to strike anyway could say that they were the democrats and the strikers were the anti-democrats. Had there been a national strike ballot which went in favour of a strike (as opinion polls at the time suggested it would), the miners negotiating position would have beem immeasurably strengthed and, in my view, the moral pressure on the Notts miners would have been such that most of them would have come out. The strike would have then probably have been settled on the basis of a slowing down of the pit closure programme and various other goodies for the miners.

Of course, all this pre-supposes a Gormely type leadership which looked to practical and tangible gains, not the leadership of someone who thought it was 1917 St Petersburg. What is interesting is that Scargill was elected president of the NUM in 1981 with 71% of the vote, which does show that the miners as a whole were rather in favour of his sort of leadership. Perhaps people get the leaders they deserve :-(
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Your first paragraph has some credence to it, but hey, we'll never know will we!

As for your second paragraph, rather harsh on the miners action of voting him in with 71%. Gormley had a history of kowtowing to the NCB management, he had a cosy relationship with them. Scargill was a damn good compensation agent in his early days and his reputation within the NUM was nurtured from that. Couple that with his actions at Saltley, and you could hardly blame the miners for electing this bloke to lead them.
However, what happened subsequently, certainly lead some to believe they'd cast their vote the wrong direction.
 
LSF said:
Your first paragraph has some credence to it, but hey, we'll never know will we!

As for your second paragraph, rather harsh on the miners action of voting him in with 71%. Gormley had a history of kowtowing to the NCB management, he had a cosy relationship with them. Scargill was a damn good compensation agent in his early days and his reputation within the NUM was nurtured from that. Couple that with his actions at Saltley, and you could hardly blame the miners for electing this bloke to lead them.
However, what happened subsequently, certainly lead some to believe they'd cast their vote the wrong direction.
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Well, yes, he must have had something to get that kind of vote.

The problem was that the balance of class forces, as it were, was radically different in 1984 to what it was at the time of Saltley in 1972. After the two bouts of anti-union laws and the Tory landslide in the 83 election, it was clear to even my then 17 year old self that a head on confrontation with the Thatcher government was going to fail. Sometimes a leader had to know when to manoeuuvre and compromise and not always go for the glorious charge.
 

LSF said:
Chanting 'Scab' at Forest or any other Notts related team, is typical of the mob mentality of football crowds. I've never done it and am certain I never will.

I don't regard blokes who went back to work after long periods of being on strike as scabs. If hardliners want to, that's their look out.
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Which is my point overall. I don't chant it and won't chant it. The whole point of my discussion in this thread was to highlight the narrowmindedness of the ones that do chant it and to ask for oppinions into the Sheffield folk that I know who were labelled scabs. I think I have succeeded with some of the responses.

A few years ago there was a guy a few rows in front of me let his ~8 year old kid chant it with anger at the Forest fans before looking at him with an approving smile on his face. I don't agree with that.

Do we chant Nazi to German fans?

Thatcher was a twat. Scargill is a twat. We can agree on that surely?
 
mattbianco1 said:
Which is my point overall. I don't chant it and won't chant it. The whole point of my discussion in this thread was to highlight the narrowmindedness of the ones that do chant it and to ask for oppinions into the Sheffield folk that I know who were labelled scabs. I think I have succeeded with some of the responses.

A few years ago there was a guy a few rows in front of me let his ~8 year old kid chant it with anger at the Forest fans before looking at him with an approving smile on his face.
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FFS its only a bit of a laugh chanting SCAB at the Forest fans do you really think they would feel offended by this after all these years. Some people take things way too seriously
 
Pedro Verde said:
FFS its only a bit of a laugh chanting SCAB at the Forest fans do you really think they would feel offended by this after all these years. Some people take things way too seriously
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It's not though is it.

A quick google will find some interesting insights from a Nottm Forest forum...

As Barnsley prepare to throw abuse can the term scab be termed as racist? It's intended to be abusive and aimed at our origins so do the police wade in and deal with/arrest chunks of the crowd?
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Who cares?
Certainly not me. I'm 21 years old, scab has connotations of absolutely nothing with me and I really don't care one bit.
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Plenty of Nottinghamshire miners suffered on the pickets during the strikes and the issue is far too complicated to be debated on the terraces. "Scabs scabs scabs" and "Arthur Scargill, what a wanker" just go to show that politics and football shouldn't be mixed.
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i would love not to care, and it doesn't have any connotations here either, but when leeds fans shout "FUCKING SCAB" in your face outside the ground even though you're clearly too young to have any association with it - it is bloody outrageous
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The PC Police decide with their social engineering agenda, what is and what is not acceptable. Notts miners who worked and joined the UDM, are according to the left a despised group who broke ranks with their communist inspired leaders and aims, so are able to be insulted freely and regularly, this behaviour must be encouraged in our march towards the utopia of a totalaterian community, where all thoughts and actions are directed and controlled by the few for the good of the state.

Heaven help us if we allow some forthright wonderful leader such as Mrs Thatcher to rise again, encouraging freedom of thought and actions, put back the cause years she did.
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I am a 20 year old man currently working in a restaurant. Therefore I am fully responsible for Scargill forcing the strike without votes, Nottinghamshire miners refusing to strike and the fact that the Miners were defeated. The Barnsley fans, both middle aged and teenage are correct to call me a scab when I'm walking towards their ground and giving their club a high entrance fee. Good work Tykes!
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My Dad was the Personnel Manager at Bilsthorpe Colliery during the strike, and saw all sorts of things kicking off, and had to deal with miners coming back to work because they'd literally run out of money and had nothing to feed their families with.

It may be an exaggeration to say some of the miners were starved back to work, but many were.

And the bitter bleating from Yorkshire always avoids the simple documented fact that the NUM declared what was, in simple terms, an illegal strike.
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We call Derby fans sheep shaggers in a tongue in cheek banter kind of way. We don't genuinely think that Derby fans have sex with sheep (someone will no doubt say yes they do etc, but I'm being serious for a second).

Sheffield and Barnsley fans have called me a scab in the past with real hatred in their voice, like they really believe I am a scab just because I happen to come from Nottingham.

To answer the original question, it's not racist but it is exactly the same as the narrow minded bigotry on which a lot of racism is based.
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Full thread here: http://www.forestforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31199
 
mattbianco1 said:
It's not though is it.

A quick google will find some interesting insights from a Nottm Forest forum...

















Full thread here: http://www.forestforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31199
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Well it is just a laugh after all these years
Is calling someone a Scab racist FFS get a life I know the Scousers are a little fragile about things sometimes but do you think they get wound up over the sign on chants
I feel for the poor dears they shouldnt take it seriously or personally or do they have some guilt over the whole thing, I dont know and frankly I dont care.
 
Pedro Verde said:
FFS its only a bit of a laugh chanting SCAB at the Forest fans do you really think they would feel offended by this after all these years. Some people take things way too seriously
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Ah yes the final excuses of the last dinosaurs thrashing about in the swamp. They don't mind, its just a bit of fun. As it stands chanting at football is what it is, but this runs deeper because many mean what they are chanting, even though many weren't actually around at the time or have any witness to the effect it had on people.

I suppose its just silly to let ignorance stand in the way of a good old laugh.
 

Bladesway said:
Ah yes the final excuses of the last dinosaurs thrashing about in the swamp. They don't mind, its just a bit of fun. As it stands chanting at football is what it is, but this runs deeper because many mean what they are chanting, even though many weren't actually around at the time or have any witness to the effect it had on people.

I suppose its just silly to let ignorance stand in the way of a good old laugh.
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WTF ignorance
I was around in the 70s and 80s and worked at Orgreave (not the pit) I know all about the miners strike and what Thatchers private army did to the strikers its all coming out that Arthur was right they were going to shut nearly 80 pits not the 20 they said.
I know feelings still run high in some of the mining communities.

But chanting at a football match is what it is just a wind up. How many Blades actually mean what they chant maybe 5% and so what if they do mean it, they have a right to their opinion
It really is a sad state of affairs when the poor dears from Nottingham cant take a chant in their stride and get all precious about it. Some people need to man up they might actually think that when the Shoreham boys turn up all their women will be raped and they wont have any beer left to sup. :cool:
 
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