A few observations from the stats (Tigers):

[Coolblade]

A few observations from the stats:

- first, as I frequently observe, stats by themselves can be very misleading. For example, if our opponents attack down one side as one of our defenders is playing poorly, then that defender is likely to have higher number of tackles, clearances etc, because he's been targeted.

- on the stats, Peck was our best performer, with 4 key passes (next best only had 1), most crosses (11) as well as most tackles (5) and aside from our two centre halves passing it to each other, also had the second highest pass completion rate (but still only 83.8%).

- O'Hare clearly missed Hamer, but he had most shots, second most tackles and most surprisingly second most aerial duels won. Indeed our strategy to play lots of high balls into the box, despite the modest height in the team, was a very odd strategy, with O'Hare - despite being one of the shortest players - winning more aerial duels then all our three front line forwards put together.

- the stats on BBD, Cannon and Brooks are so poor, I will save their disgrace by just moving on. Let's just hope it is a matter of them getting bedded in and match sharp. Brewster's stats are stronger that any of them (even won three aerial duels) - despite only being a sub.

- finally, on a positive, it was great to see Vini back, and again his stats were strong for a sub, with more positive defensive contributions than either of our centre halves. Our performances when he is in the team are so much stronger, I pray he stays fit.

Onward and upward. At least Burnley and Leeds can't both win this weekend......

 

[LondonBlade89]

A few observations from the stats:

- first, as I frequently observe, stats by themselves can be very misleading. For example, if our opponents attack down one side as one of our defenders is playing poorly, then that defender is likely to have higher number of tackles, clearances etc, because he's been targeted.

- on the stats, Peck was our best performer, with 4 key passes (next best only had 1), most crosses (11) as well as most tackles (5) and aside from our two centre halves passing it to each other, also had the second highest pass completion rate (but still only 83.8%).

- O'Hare clearly missed Hamer, but he had most shots, second most tackles and most surprisingly second most aerial duels won. Indeed our strategy to play lots of high balls into the box, despite the modest height in the team, was a very odd strategy, with O'Hare - despite being one of the shortest players - winning more aerial duels then all our three front line forwards put together.

- the stats on BBD, Cannon and Brooks are so poor, I will save their disgrace by just moving on. Let's just hope it is a matter of them getting bedded in and match sharp. Brewster's stats are stronger that any of them (even won three aerial duels) - despite only being a sub.

- finally, on a positive, it was great to see Vini back, and again his stats were strong for a sub, with more positive defensive contributions than either of our centre halves. Our performances when he is in the team are so much stronger, I pray he stays fit.

Onward and upward. At least Burnley and Leeds can't both win this weekend......

BBD looked incredibly rusty - as he did in his cameo midweek - but he’s not played properly in a while and so it may take a bit of time to get up to speed. Cannon you can let off as well. Brooks however I think it may be a while before he sees the starting lineup again.

Wilder got a number of things wrong but chucking Cannon straight in alongside attackers who were either rusty and/or out of form and a midfield containing a left back wasn’t his finest move. We needed some consistency and I’d have gone Brewster and Campbell instead. But never mind, we move on as you say.

 

[LondonBlade89]

BBD looked incredibly rusty - as he did in his cameo midweek - but he’s not played properly in a while and so it may take a bit of time to get up to speed. Cannon you can let off as well. Brooks however I think it may be a while before he sees the starting lineup again.

Wilder got a number of things wrong but chucking Cannon straight in alongside attackers who were either rusty and/or out of form and a midfield containing a left back wasn’t his finest move. We needed some consistency and I’d have gone Brewster and Campbell instead. But never mind, we move on as you say.

A belated edit. It sounds like from Wilder’s post-match comments that Campbell couldn’t play more than 45 minutes and with managing Brewster he couldn’t start either. He did sound truly a bit stuck last night. Ah well, we move on.

 

[Servigliano]

A few observations from the stats:

- first, as I frequently observe, stats by themselves can be very misleading. For example, if our opponents attack down one side as one of our defenders is playing poorly, then that defender is likely to have higher number of tackles, clearances etc, because he's been targeted.

- on the stats, Peck was our best performer, with 4 key passes (next best only had 1), most crosses (11) as well as most tackles (5) and aside from our two centre halves passing it to each other, also had the second highest pass completion rate (but still only 83.8%).

- O'Hare clearly missed Hamer, but he had most shots, second most tackles and most surprisingly second most aerial duels won. Indeed our strategy to play lots of high balls into the box, despite the modest height in the team, was a very odd strategy, with O'Hare - despite being one of the shortest players - winning more aerial duels then all our three front line forwards put together.

- the stats on BBD, Cannon and Brooks are so poor, I will save their disgrace by just moving on. Let's just hope it is a matter of them getting bedded in and match sharp. Brewster's stats are stronger that any of them (even won three aerial duels) - despite only being a sub.

- finally, on a positive, it was great to see Vini back, and again his stats were strong for a sub, with more positive defensive contributions than either of our centre halves. Our performances when he is in the team are so much stronger, I pray he stays fit.

Onward and upward. At least Burnley and Leeds can't both win this weekend......

Good to see those stats (in a way) That said -

What have the following players got in common-
Cooper,
Anel,
O'Hare.

Imho they are the only players who would have been in the starting 11 yesterday (save Burrows, who would have been in his normal position) were it not for injuries and one huge suspension.
The very heartbeat of the team has been ripped out - Arblaster, Souza (not fit to start) Davies and you can add Hamer to that list.
Blame Wilder if you must but what else could he have done bearing in mind injuries/suspension. And never forget he knows the fitness levels of the players far better than us.
Goals change games. They score a worldy due to our mistake, thatsets the tone for the match.
No great surprise we lost yesterday.

Some on here, other threads have been having a pop at Peck. He's only 20, playing in the Championship for the first time due to injuries and has been a more than capable replacement. In the circumstances he's been excellent.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

The one thing that I don’t get with Wilder is his management of certain players. Brooks being one, whenever he has a good game he drops him. (Not excusing his performance yesterday). Another is Brewster, I thought that the reason he took him off on Tuesday was to save him for Friday. He has been having some good games, just scored and was linking up well with O Hare and Hamer. Given that Hamer was missing, O Hare tried to do everything alone, where I felt him and Brewster would have combined well and maybe created something for Cannon

 

[SUFC Guy]

At least Burnley and Leeds can't both win this weekend......

The only saving grace with this game is that there is really no terrible result - we did that to ourselves last night.

Leeds win or they draw then we stay in 2nd.

Burnley win, we are only 1 point behind both Leeds and Burnley.

Sunderland will hammer plymouth today so they will be 1 point behind us.

We are lucky that both Leeds and Burnley cannot pick up 3 points on Monday.

A win against Derby is an absolute must.

UTB

 

[wak1889]

BBD looked incredibly rusty - as he did in his cameo midweek - but he’s not played properly in a while and so it may take a bit of time to get up to speed. Cannon you can let off as well. Brooks however I think it may be a while before he sees the starting lineup again.

Wilder got a number of things wrong but chucking Cannon straight in alongside attackers who were either rusty and/or out of form and a midfield containing a left back wasn’t his finest move. We needed some consistency and I’d have gone Brewster and Campbell instead. But never mind, we move on as you say.

I'm not sure you can let cannons off these days

 

[Barmyblade]

Given we don’t see the players everyday in training and fully understand their fitness level, to an extent it’s hard to judge. But the plan without Hamer yesterday looked bizarre to me (in the first half) and I just saw panic as we threw on players and changed formation in the second.

 

[100% part time blade]

Actually the subs who came on combined excellently for a good goal - that was incorrectly ruled out for offside. If that stands, we probably go on to win the game, and Wilder gets pats on the back for the way he’s managing players that can only do 30-45 minutes at the moment.

 

[bornablade]

The line-up for last night's match against Hull showed a total disrespect for the opposition.

To start with 2 new comers up front who possibly had only just met with Harrison Burrows a left back in midfield showed an arrogant attitude bordering on 'this is only Hull City we'll easily get away with it'.

The arrogance doesn't surprise me.

In addition did we really think that we were holding some type of ace up our sleeve by not revealing wether Cannon would be eligible to play? That really had the Hull City management second guessing on how they were going to line up.

That really worked out well.

 

[Varkanoid]

Sunderland will hammer plymouth today so they will be 1 point behind us.

 

[Wright1889]

Does anyone think we need a right winger? Right now I don’t trust Brooks and JRS as our options.

 

[Carlton Blade]

On FBref, a progressive carry is defined as a carry that moves the ball toward the opponent's goal by at least 5 yards, or any carry into the opponent's penalty area.

I think it's a really important stat. Shows that you have players taking responsibility for progressing the ball and making opposition defenders commit, thus opening spaces.

Last night, we had 7. Joint 2nd lowest of the season (Leeds) and only beaten by Coventry away with 6. Burnley at home, only 8. Wednesday at home, a turgid bore fest, 8.

We also only attempted 8 'take ons', another season low. The lack of confidence, conviction and bravery in possession wasa determining factor. Need Hamer's ability to both do these things and find players 1v1 in space to do it back. But mostly, the players need to be braver in possession

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

A win against Derby is an absolute must.

UTB

A Derby team that cannot stop losing on a 7 game losing run,the last time they won was Boxing Day 2-1 against WBA.

I'm sure we will give them some chances to score,will they take them.

 

[100% part time blade]

The line-up for last night's match against Hull showed a total disrespect for the opposition.

To start with 2 new comers up front who possibly had only just met with Harrison Burrows a left back in midfield showed an arrogant attitude bordering on 'this is only Hull City we'll easily get away with it'.

The arrogance doesn't surprise me.

In addition did we really think that we were holding some type of ace up our sleeve by not revealing wether Cannon would be eligible to play? That really had the Hull City management second guessing on how they were going to line up.

That really worked out well.

I’d agree that Burrows looked like a player playing out of his position last night, but I’m not convinced the line-up was down to arrogance.
Arblaster should play there. He can’t.
Vini should start. But he can only do 30 minutes.
Peck is the backup. He’s already in though.
Davies should come in. He can’t.
Hamer could play there. He couldn’t.
Shackleton could go in there as a last resort. He can’t.

In the front 3, Campbell has been the best striker this season. He should start. But he can only do 45 minutes.
Hamer should start. He can’t.
Moore could start. He can’t.
Rak-Saki could start. But he can only do 30 minutes.
Didn’t Wilder say Brewster wasn’t in a position to play a full 90 either?
Who’s left? one? marsh?

So Wilder has options of Louie Marsh (who’s never started a game for us) and Ryan One (who’s 18), or BBD and Cannon - who haven’t trained much (at all) with us.

And in midfield he could have played erm …

In my view, this isn’t Wilder arrogantly resting all his best players because it’s only Hull; it’s picking what he thought was the strongest side from the bodies available to start. We looked disjointed, and had no fluidity to our player (Wilder’s words), but I’m not sure that’s down to being arrogant about Hull. We weren’t saving our best players for a big game coming up - it looked to me like the management team selected the best starting line up they thought they could to try and win that game.

 

[Barmyblade]

Whilst I appreciate the lack of options, the experiment of playing Burrows in central midfield had been shown to be a failure in both the Cardiff and Swansea games, both because he isn’t a great centre midfielder and because his ability to cross successfully is the best in the squad (according to the stats by a massive margin). So at at a time when we lost our most reliable creative spark (in Hamer) we also chose to rid ourselves of our second most effective attacking threat.

Whether playing O’Hare in a deeper role, Brooks in a more central role, Gilchrist in a more forward role, Biacker after his promising performance in the cup, there were options (albeit risky ones) which hadn’t already been shown to be proven failures like playing Burrows there.

Indeed the two first half performances against Swansea and Hull were probably our worst of the season- and Burrows was moved from the central position swiftly. Does Wilder deserve credit for making the change each time at halftime , or criticism for sticking with a plan which had failed every time before?

 

[100% part time blade]

Whilst I appreciate the lack of options, the experiment of playing Burrows in central midfield had been shown to be a failure in both the Cardiff and Swansea games, both because he isn’t a great centre midfielder and because his ability to cross successfully is the best in the squad (according to the stats by a massive margin). So at at a time when we lost our most reliable creative spark (in Hamer) we also chose to rid ourselves of our second most effective attacking threat.

Whether playing O’Hare in a deeper role, Brooks in a more central role, Gilchrist in a more forward role, Biacker after his promising performance in the cup, there were options (albeit risky ones) which hadn’t already been shown to be proven failures like playing Burrows there.

Indeed the two first half performances against Swansea and Hull were probably our worst of the season- and Burrows was moved from the central position swiftly. Does Wilder deserve credit for making the change each time at halftime , or criticism for sticking with a plan which had failed every time before?

I agree, playing Burrows there didn’t work - I was saying more that I didn’t think the lineup was linked to being arrogant. None of the options look great: moving Ohare means we need someone else in the front three - One? Marsh? Or Mcallum? Or Burrows??; moving Gilchrist (who some say hasn’t really got the passing and ball control ability for a right-back, let alone a midfielder) means we have to replace him there (Seriki and Shackleton are injured): McCallum? Baptiste? Norrington-Davies?; Blacker in midfield is a possibility, but playing an 18 year old with no league starts (who I thought was more of an attacking midfielder) in that central role doesn’t look obviously better than Burrows there.

Nobody played well in the first 45 at Swansea.
Burrows should have the attributes to be better in midfield than he was at Swansea: his control, passing, energy, attacking, tackling should mean he could do the job there. The management team clearly thought trying him there again was a better option than the others from the unfortunate cards they had been dealt. The two performances suggest he’s struggling to play that role right now, but he could develop the ability to deputise there in the future. Hopefully we won’t be in a situation where he has to again this season.

 

[Nagima]

Stats are a useful aid if you understand what you are seeing from video analysis and from your own eyes. It only takes one action to have a major bearing on the game.

Goal 1. Peck while stretching to get his head to the ball ended up heading the ball to where he thought Brooks was. But for some reason Brooks was running towards Peck to challenge for the same dropping ball. Brooks then misses his tackle on the Hull player who now is on the break. Gilchrist in trying to cut out the pass just lays it right in front of Crooks who curls it home. Gilchrist couldn't do much more. But the Peck Brooks issue and Brooks subsequent rushed challenge meant that there was no one to collect the ball or challenge Crooks.

Goal 2. The ball is crossed but headed onwards by Robinson at a stretch. Hull player collects the ball but none of the 3 players nearby make an attempt to press quickly. Ball is passed without pressure and cross ensues with no pressure. Gilchrist isn't able to block the touch by Hull player who scores. Not being able to block was mainly due to getting impeded by Anel who just prior to the ball arriving had been jostling for position and ended up falling backwards.

Goal 3.
Vini was more interested in leaning into the forward on the dropping ball. He should have been climbing to head the ball. The ball bounces. Anel gets there ahead of Robinson and just knocks the ball into the path of Jao Pedro. Robinson and Anel are in a panic and Anel then gets his feet all wrong and misses his attempted tackle.

Overall.
Brooks is not easy to play with as you don't know what he is going to do half if the time. He put in a few good tackles but then does not demand the ball or run to open up space.
Anel isn't the organiser that Souttar was and has a tendency to panic under pressure. Vini will get back up to speed hopefully. After the introduction of Brewster Campbell and Vini we were more direct and energised. But as the half played on we lost total organisation and Hull took over running right at us with pace.

Hulls press was way more energetic than ours and we lacked a bit of cutting edge.
Possession %, pass completion %, shots taken are meaningless. Shots on Target and the scoreline are the relevant bits. The key to match analysis is not picking out the final mistake but it's more about finding the root cause that leads to the event.

 

[Foody]

Whilst I appreciate the lack of options, the experiment of playing Burrows in central midfield had been shown to be a failure in both the Cardiff and Swansea games, both because he isn’t a great centre midfielder and because his ability to cross successfully is the best in the squad (according to the stats by a massive margin). So at at a time when we lost our most reliable creative spark (in Hamer) we also chose to rid ourselves of our second most effective attacking threat.

Whether playing O’Hare in a deeper role, Brooks in a more central role, Gilchrist in a more forward role, Biacker after his promising performance in the cup, there were options (albeit risky ones) which hadn’t already been shown to be proven failures like playing Burrows there.

Indeed the two first half performances against Swansea and Hull were probably our worst of the season- and Burrows was moved from the central position swiftly. Does Wilder deserve credit for making the change each time at halftime , or criticism for sticking with a plan which had failed every time before?

So the solution to not being 'arrogant' by playing a player out of position in centre mid is to play a different player out of position in centre midfield?

As a one of game I can put the Hull result down to a bit of bad luck and a bit of an off night. That performance is far from a one off though, it's just the first time our opponents have taken the chances and punished us .

 

[Nagima]

So the solution to not being 'arrogant' by playing a player out of position in centre mid is to play a different player out of position in centre midfield?

As a one of game I can put the Hull result down to a bit of bad luck and a bit of an off night. That performance is far from a one off though, it's just the first time our opponents have taken the chances and punished us .

For me the bigger issue isn't a player playing out of position but more of the reorganisation that takes place when making substitutions. We end up moving 4 or 5 players around ending up with a bit of a tangle going forward and defending leading to passes not given or spaces being left for the opposition to run into.

That's where the loss of Souttar is having an impact as well as Vini. We need leaders who can see and subtlety adjust in the game by giving a bit of direction to those around them.

 

[Foody]

For me the bigger issue isn't a player playing out of position but more of the reorganisation that takes place when making substitutions. We end up moving 4 or 5 players around ending up with a bit of a tangle going forward and defending leading to passes not given or spaces being left for the opposition to run into.

That's where the loss of Souttar is having an impact as well as Vini. We need leaders who can see and subtlety adjust in the game by giving a bit of direction to those around them.

Agreed, Friday night highlights that more than anything. We started the second half really brightly, had Hull pinned back and even scored a goal that was wrongly disallowed. When we then conceded, completely against the run of play, we decided to change shape, it just didn't suit us, at all.

 

[Barmyblade]

So the solution to not being 'arrogant' by playing a player out of position in centre mid is to play a different player out of position in centre midfield?

I think you may be confusing posters, as I never suggested Wilder was arrogant, merely that he should learn from his mistakes, and that Burrows ability as our best crosser was a further reason to play him in his normal position. If we only have one fit centre mid then obviously a tough decision had to be made as to who should play alongside him.

Personally if Vini was fit enough for 45 mins or so, it may have been better for us to start with our strongest side, then sub him for Blacker, who at least would have run his cobblers off, and would be playing in his preferred position And at a time when hopefully we would have been ahead with Hull’s fragile confidence broken.

Being 18 years old is not a bar to playing at the top of the championship. Rigg (17) Watson (18) and Bellingham (19) in Sunderland’s midfield all look fantastic. And Blacker was singled out for praise by Wilder after the Cardiff game, whilst our fans enjoy supporting our juniors as they step up,

 

[Coolblade]

To be fair to Blacker, against Cardiff he didn’t just run about, he had very strong offensive stats too. Most impressively he had most key passes of anyone in either side, as well as three shots, a successful dribble etc. which in a team with most first choice players absent was a great start. So it was understandable why Wilder name checked him afterwards.

 

[wadblade]

CWAK Can i suggest
1/dont play Burows in midfield
2/ that if we play against another team sittling deep we move either McCallum or Ahame into their penality area as it would give us another aerial option
UTB

 

[100% part time blade]

I think you may be confusing posters, as I never suggested Wilder was arrogant, merely that he should learn from his mistakes, and that Burrows ability as our best crosser was a further reason to play him in his normal position. If we only have one fit centre mid then obviously a tough decision had to be made as to who should play alongside him.

Personally if Vini was fit enough for 45 mins or so, it may have been better for us to start with our strongest side, then sub him for Blacker, who at least would have run his cobblers off, and would be playing in his preferred position And at a time when hopefully we would have been ahead with Hull’s fragile confidence broken.

Being 18 years old is not a bar to playing at the top of the championship. Rigg (17) Watson (18) and Bellingham (19) in Sunderland’s midfield all look fantastic. And Blacker was singled out for praise by Wilder after the Cardiff game, whilst our fans enjoy supporting our juniors as they step up,

Good points - Blacker was an option and I’m sure it crossed their minds. Our fans do enjoy supporting our juniors - unless they make a dreadful mistake, or really struggle throughout the game, in which case something sightly different seems to happen with the fans (often on this forum) and I wonder what impact that may have on an inexperienced young player’s development…

 

[Foody]

I think you may be confusing posters, as I never suggested Wilder was arrogant, merely that he should learn from his mistakes, and that Burrows ability as our best crosser was a further reason to play him in his normal position. If we only have one fit centre mid then obviously a tough decision had to be made as to who should play alongside him.

Personally if Vini was fit enough for 45 mins or so, it may have been better for us to start with our strongest side, then sub him for Blacker, who at least would have run his cobblers off, and would be playing in his preferred position And at a time when hopefully we would have been ahead with Hull’s fragile confidence broken.

Being 18 years old is not a bar to playing at the top of the championship. Rigg (17) Watson (18) and Bellingham (19) in Sunderland’s midfield all look fantastic. And Blacker was singled out for praise by Wilder after the Cardiff game, whilst our fans enjoy supporting our juniors as they step up,

Apologies, you're absolutely right. It was the poster above you who'd brought up the arrogance point.

The Burrow's point I do get, but in fairness to Wilder Burrow's has played in that position before, so probably the least square of the square pegs for a round hole. Centre midfield is just a massive headache with injuries and suspension.

I get Blacker would bring legs, but to my eyes it wasn't legs we were missing. It was positional awareness and a player who can recycle the ball well. I'd guess Wilder felt Blacker and Peck together just lacks experience.