Bassett or weir

[Pinchy]

Yep, agreed. So our "poncey style" is failing miserably? Can't we play it "properly" like them, and begin to compete with the Rotherham's and Carlisles of this world?

We've had 3 pre seasons and over 2 years of trying now. It's a tad convenient to be blaming hoof for our woes.

UTB

I'm merely responding to the topic 'Bassett or Weir'. Your gang started this, not me!

 

[DazBlade88]

Is Weir trying to copy Swansea's style? While we had a right back and a central midfielder out wide on Saturday, Swansea have always had pacey wingers and good forward movement. They also have full backs who can go forward, while we have McMahon and Hill who rarely contribute to our attacking play. Laudrup has apparantly upped their tempo a little.

They've been good at identifying situations when you should bomb forward quickly before the opposition have time to regroup.If you watch Michu's goals last season they don't all come following 20 passes moves. There's lots of good movement, lots of crosses, lots of forward passes, lots of good width. There are more things than rolling the ball across the back four that we can learn from them.

This is the biggest problem we have whilst trying to implement this new system by an absolute mile. Two full backs who can contribute to an attacking phase of play would make such a big difference to this side. Any side who is successful usually has full backs getting forward at every opportunity, no matter what league you're in.

In terms of wingers, I said it on another thread earlier, if we could bring in somebody like Jay Simpson to play on the wing then him and Brandy would be the ideal wing pairing for us.

If we do bring in this type of player in the next few weeks and we're still struggling, then you do have to look at the manager.

 

[alcoblade]

What I don't get is this:

I presume that in Pinchy's world, we played "hoof" under Warnock and Blackwell between 2002 and 2010. In that period we never finished lower than 9th in the second tier (and that lowest position was down to the abject failure of the presumed "non-hoof" under Robson in the early part of 07-08).

Since 2011, with the brief hiatus of Morgan, we have had Wilson and Weir as managers who are - as I understand it - non-hoof managers. Under their tenure we have failed to get out of the 3rd Division and, at the moment show every sign of declining further.

What I am struggling with is how, when "hoof" ruled the roost we were always serious contenders for promotion to the PL, whilst since "hoof" as been banished we have gone from a very good 3rd Division team, to an ok 3rd Division team and now to a crap 3rd division team.

Me and Pinchy are both lawyers. I suggest that on that evidence, one might thing that hoof is better for United than non-hoof. Or it might just be that Pinchy is talking bollocks and football isn't as Manichean as he suggests.

In the digital world of hoof V non hoof, we passed through a logic gate where hoof went from "working" to "not working". That explains why we can't ever be allowed to lift the ball off the floor, why we need a new ethos, and why any attempt to get the ball forward quickly will see an end to Sheffield United as we know it.

Quite why we're getting played off the park by Carlisle when we banished hoof 3 years ago is beyond me.

UTB

 

[Pinchy]

What I don't get is this:

I presume that in Pinchy's world, we played "hoof" under Warnock and Blackwell between 2002 and 2010. In that period we never finished lower than 9th in the second tier (and that lowest position was down to the abject failure of the presumed "non-hoof" under Robson in the early part of 07-08).

Since 2011, with the brief hiatus of Morgan, we have had Wilson and Weir as managers who are - as I understand it - non-hoof managers. Under their tenure we have failed to get out of the 3rd Division and, at the moment show every sign of declining further.

What I am struggling with is how, when "hoof" ruled the roost we were always serious contenders for promotion to the PL, whilst since "hoof" as been banished we have gone from a very good 3rd Division team, to an ok 3rd Division team and now to a crap 3rd division team.

Me and Pinchy are both lawyers. I suggest that on that evidence, one might thing that hoof is better for United than non-hoof. Or it might just be that Pinchy is talking bollocks and football isn't as Manichean as he suggests.

As a lawyer, you really ought to favour art over science. Hoof fails on either analysis, but grotesquely so in the case of the former.

 

[DazBlade88]

Quite why we're getting played off the park by Carlisle when we banished hoof 3 years ago is beyond me.

As shite as we were, we we far from played off the park. It was just two terrible sides.

 

[IOM Blade]

This is the biggest problem we have whilst trying to implement this new system by an absolute mile. Two full backs who can contribute to an attacking phase of play would make such a big difference to this side. Any side who is successful usually has full backs getting forward at every opportunity, no matter what league you're in.

Exactly. When attacking we should look something like this:

-----------------------Porter

Hill----Cuvelier----Baxter----Brandy----McMahon

-----------------Doyle-----Coady

-----------------Collins----Magiure

That's how all the top teams that Weir is trying to emulate play it. But all our full backs don't have the legs or technique to cut it.

 

[Fiery Blade]

The current debate regarding playing 'football' against 'hoofball' holds no water whatsoever
For my money Glyn Hodges, John Gannon, Jocky Bryson et al could all pass a ball far better than any of the current crock of sh!te.
You play to your strengths - at the moment I am at a loss of where our strengths lie
Basset assembled a side that could attack down the flanks at pace, two strikers who could put the ball away either in the air or on the ground, could deliver a precise dead ball from either corner or free kick, had a strong spine of goalkeeper, centre backs and strikers and willing workers in Booker, Rostron, Wood, Ward, Whitehouse etc
That was the crux, Bassett recruited the personnel to play to their strengths whatever the style -= styles come in and out of fashion - winning football matches requires you to score more goals than the opposition whatever way you do it - take a long hard look at the current side - they lack talent, ability, pace, heart, strength,passion and effort - whatever the style they just are not up to the task !

 

[oldblade]

Here's my view and it will never change. The best, most effective and timeless brand of football is pass and move. It's simple, entertaining and has been working for over 100 years. If DW is trying to introduce his own brand of this then he should be given time to do so, as it can and will eventually work.

I'm not against long ball, hoof ball, orbit ball (whatever you want to call it) because I'm a football purist or even because it doesn't seem fashionable. I'm against it because its proven to only take teams so far and will only work for as long as it takes your opposition to learn how to combat what you're doing. Why else would Stoke have abandoned this style? It's limited and one dimensional.

I'm not a fan of this thing called tiki-taka either (for the record). Only works if you have all of the best players in the world. If we're going for pass and move then all DW needs is some decent players. Simples.

If you have players who can pass and move, that's fine. If not, you have to buy another team of players, or play in a different way.

 

[Pinchy]

If you have players who can pass and move, that's fine. If not, you have to buy another team of players, or play in a different way.

If they can't they should not be playing professional football! Get rid of them. It's as simple as that. We are Sheffield United not the Dog and Duck. Have some pride and ambition, for God's sake!

 

[Pinchy]

The current debate regarding playing 'football' against 'hoofball' holds no water whatsoever
For my money Glyn Hodges, John Gannon, Jocky Bryson et al could all pass a ball far better than any of the current crock of sh!te.
You play to your strengths - at the moment I am at a loss of where our strengths lie
Basset assembled a side that could attack down the flanks at pace, two strikers who could put the ball away either in the air or on the ground, could deliver a precise dead ball from either corner or free kick, had a strong spine of goalkeeper, centre backs and strikers and willing workers in Booker, Rostron, Wood, Ward, Whitehouse etc
That was the crux, Bassett recruited the personnel to play to their strengths whatever the style -= styles come in and out of fashion - winning football matches requires you to score more goals than the opposition whatever way you do it - take a long hard look at the current side - they lack talent, ability, pace, heart, strength,passion and effort - whatever the style they just are not up to the task !

You'll have forgotten the semi-final where the Pigs football team never gave Bassett's Heroes a kick? A completely one-sided embarrassment that could easily have ended 10-1. I suggest you stop trying to turn chalk into cheese or base metal to gold. It doesn't work. If you like prehistoric football just say so, it's not a crime, but pretending Bassett was anything but a purveyor of hoof is risible.

 

[Darren]

You'll have forgotten the semi-final where the Pigs football team never gave Bassett's Heroes a kick? A completely one-sided embarrassment that could easily have ended 10-1. I suggest you stop trying to turn chalk into cheese or base metal to gold. It doesn't work. If you like prehistoric football just say so, it's not a crime, but pretending Bassett was anything but a purveyor of hoof is risible.

Yes, I have to say I much prefer being in the bottom 4 in the 3rd Division and being knocked out of the first round of the League Cup by Burton Albion as opposed to getting to FA Cup semi finals and finishing 14th in the Premier League...

 

[Darren]

As a lawyer, you really ought to favour art over science. Hoof fails on either analysis, but grotesquely so in the case of the former.

Well that addressed my points....

 

[oldblade]

If they can't they should not be playing professional football! Get rid of them. It's as simple as that. We are Sheffield United not the Dog and Duck. Have some pride and ambition, for God's sake!

The dog and Duck probably have no contracted players, so you can get rid of them at will. Unfortunately Sheffield United is a professional football club (hard to believe at times, I know!) and all our players are contracted to us. Didn't think that would need pointing out to you of all people.

The merits or otherwise of most of our players has been discussed at length in many threads on this forum and everyone has their own thoughts on their abilities. But, no matter how good or bad they are, they are our players unless someone else takes them off our hands, and I do not see a queue of clubs forming to do that.

Perhaps it is you who needs some pride and ambition. I see no pride or ambition in persevering with an allegedly better way of playing football when it gives you one win in at total of 9 games (7 league plus 2 cup), 6 defeats, 6 goals for, no clean sheets at all in the league and just one against fourth division opposition in the JPT (where we still failed to score). And to top it all we are now occupying one of the relegation positions to league 4 - something we have only done once before in our history for a total of about 5 minutes.

There is no pride or ambition in playing football in a way that our players cannot cope with. That is the way to certain disaster.

 

[oldblade]

You'll have forgotten the semi-final where the Pigs football team never gave Bassett's Heroes a kick? A completely one-sided embarrassment that could easily have ended 10-1. I suggest you stop trying to turn chalk into cheese or base metal to gold. It doesn't work. If you like prehistoric football just say so, it's not a crime, but pretending Bassett was anything but a purveyor of hoof is risible.

Unwittingly you have just destroyed your own argument.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Do you really not understand the difference between a 60 yard pass to the feet of a team-mate [or played into his path without breaking stride] and an aimless, brainless punt somewhere in the direction of the opposition goal?

Bassett's 'style' (anything but stylish) was based on surrendering possession. Functional, perhaps, if you have a Deane; Fashanu; Blissett or Agana but futile when you haven't.

We all hear managers and players. everyday, speak of playing the game the 'right way'. What do they mean? Propel the ball in the general direction of the other goal and all chase after it like a pack of schoolboy Montgomerys in a playground? Kick it Long; Kick it Hard; Kick it High? No. They speak, of course, of 'pass and move' - the attractive, effective way to play the game. The way the best teams play. The way that wins matches and trophies. Are all these professionals wrong? Is everyone out of step but good old parochial, prehistoric downtown Jurassic Lane?

Of course there are variants of pass and move. Intelligent systems can accommodate variation but none of them involve deliberately giving the ball away or 'helping it on' or endangering low-flying aircraft. Brazil were different to Holland who, in turn, were different to France. But all passed the ball and moved intelligently into space to receive it again, it to create room for a team-mate to work in. Look at club football. Man Utd are different to Arsenal who, in turn, are different to Chelsea but again, the common factor is they don't readily give the ball away. The passing may vary in nature and extent, but passing and moving it is, not aimless punting. One obvious factor is that not one of these teams would give a moments thought to employing the likes of Dinosaur Dave (not even when he was a young dinosaur); at least not without falling down in a convulsive fit of laughter.

Hoof has no variants. There is no finesse in whacking a ball as far as you possibly can to nowhere in particular. Any reasonably fit, strong person can do it. If you have big, strong, quick athletes to chase it for you it might even work up to a point, at a certain level, but, of course, it gets found out against opposition who counter with ability and intelligence. Then it's no contest. Real Madrid, Barcelona and all the top teams could, should they so wish, assemble the fittest, biggest, strongest, most athletic bunch of 'direct' footballers the world had ever seen. They don't. Why not? Because against proper intelligent 'pass and move' players they wouldn't get a kick. They would valiantly chase shadows until, ultimately, left begging for mercy and respite, they would walk off 6-0 down.

This spurious debate has, in the rest of the civilised world, been settled decades ago. For those who did not get the Green 'Un in those days, Hoof lost. Only in the roughly hewn caves and uncharted wastelands of S2 does it live on. It seems everyone is out of step but us Blades.

From that I can only conclude that you never saw Bassett's best teams play or you weren't really paying attention.
The style of football was certainly direct but not aimless and brainless as you describe it.
The skilfully chosen players followed a carefully orchestrated strategy designed to get the ball in the opposition's danger area as quickly and as often as possible.
The tactics we employed to do this were clearly detailed, worked on endlessly on the training ground and well executed by the players more often than not.
It producd attacking, exciting, entertaining and ultimately successful football for the vast majority of Bassett's reign.
If we'd simply "whacked it aimlessly as far as you can to nowhere in particular" it wouldn't have worked.
I think you must be confusing Bassett with an unsuccessful manager.

 

[Pinchy]

Unwittingly you have just destroyed your own argument.

I well understand why you say that, but your analogy is misplaced. The alchemy of which I speak is the ex-post-facto attempt to transform Bassett's base metal kick and rush into some sort of gold plate. Fool's Gold I'm afraid.

It's a completely different thing to suggest that professional footballers ought to be able, within their limitations, to play the game properly - to pass the ball with reasonable precision to a team-mate and thereafter move into space either to take possession again or to make room for a colleague to do so. As my friend alcoblade says, most Third Division teams can make a decent stab at it.

 

[BladeFisher]

What I'm saying is that style will inevitably work in the long run if time is given to recruit the right blend of players, work with current ones etc etc. I can't guarantee that Weir will be successful and I've never suggested that he definitely will but the man has been given the job and deserves more than 7 games to prove he can take the team forward. In fact I was the one who said after the Notts County game that we shouldn't get too carried away with the performance and that the players and manager would be on a steep learning curve at first. That's why I'm not panicking, I kind of expected this though not quite as bad admittedly.

We've had a bad start yes and we're not playing well currently but sacking him in September would be complete lunacy. The knee jerk reaction on here is completely OTT. We've got 39 games to play ffs!

And er 47 points to get!

So if Mr average manager won a third of his games and drew a third starting with game 8 with 39 to go we might get an additional 52 points thats 13 wins and 13 draws plus the four we have that makes 56 points. The highest amount needed over the last five years excluding teams deducted points for going into admin is 51.

If we wait another 3 games thats 36 to go we might get 44 points plus the four we have got and any in the next three games. Looking a bit squeaky bum time... Leave our current manager another month and you are looking at relegation unless results improve.

 

[Pinchy]

From that I can only conclude that you never saw Bassett's best teams play or you weren't really paying attention.
The style of football was certainly direct but not aimless and brainless as you describe it.
The skilfully chosen players followed a carefully orchestrated strategy designed to get the ball in the opposition's danger area as quickly and as often as possible.
The tactics we employed to do this were clearly detailed, worked on endlessly on the training ground and well executed by the players more often than not.
It producd attacking, exciting, entertaining and ultimately successful football for the vast majority of Bassett's reign.
If we'd simply "whacked it aimlessly as far as you can to nowhere in particular" it wouldn't have worked.
I think you must be confusing Bassett with an unsuccessful manager.

I think I perhaps saw more than you. You clearly stopped watching when Deane and Agana left. Bassett took over a team in the bottom half of Division Two and left much the same. He won precisely nothing. His 'success' was to give us four years of First Division football with players that had no right to be there. It was exciting and I enjoyed it as much as anyone. That's why I travelled all over the country to watch it. However, many (far more than you would like to think) were so alienated by the rudimentary 'style' that they declined to travel even as far as Bramall Lane to watch it. Why do you think Bassett has not been employed as a manager since the tender age of 57? Surely his carefully organised strategies would be in great demand? Or has he been a call centre operator for Quickfix Mickey?

His 'style' was found out and discredited long ago. Everyone but a few parochial, non-footballing, club-wielding cavemen in S2 agrees.

 

[Darren]

I well understand why you say that, but your analogy is misplaced. The alchemy of which I speak is the ex-post-facto attempt to transform Bassett's base metal kick and rush into some sort of gold plate. Fool's Gold I'm afraid.

It's a completely different thing to suggest that professional footballers ought to be able, within their limitations, to play the game properly - to pass the ball with reasonable precision to a team-mate and thereafter move into space either to take possession again or to make room for a colleague to do so. As my friend alcoblade says, most Third Division teams can make a decent stab at it.

Serious question, this tenacious atatchment with an almost religious fervour to the hoof/non-hoof dichtomy is a massive wind up isn't it?

I can't believe for one minute that a man of your intelligence could be serious.

 

[Darren]

I think I perhaps saw more than you. You clearly stopped watching when Deane and Agana left. Bassett took over a team in the bottom half of Division Two and left much the same. He won precisely nothing. His 'success' was to give us four years of First Division football with players that had no right to be there. It was exciting and I enjoyed it as much as anyone. That's why I travelled all over the country to watch it. However, many (far more than you would like to think) were so alienated by the rudimentary 'style' that they declined to travel even as far as Bramall Lane to watch it. Why do you think Bassett has not been employed as a manager since the tender age of 57? Surely his carefully organised strategies would be in great demand? Or has he been a call centre operator for Quickfix Mickey?

His 'style' was found out and discredited long ago. Everyone but a few parochial, non-footballing, club-wielding cavemen in S2 agrees.

Agana left in Nov 91 when we were bottom of division 1. At the end of that season we finished 9th in the top division. Our second ever best finish in my lifetime. The following season we finished 14th in the Premier League and reached the FA Cup semi final, along the way beating Man Utd, Liverpool and Spurs (6-0). In that inaugural PL season, we didn;t lose any game by more than 2 goals or concede more than 3 in any game. Can you imagine being able to say that about any SUFC side since then?

As eny fule knows the rot set in when we sold Deane in the summer of 93 and no significant funds were released to strengthen the team as Brealey tried his best to sell the club.

 

[Pinchy]

Serious question, this tenacious atatchment with an almost religious fervour to the hoof/non-hoof dichtomy is a massive wind up isn't it?

I can't believe for one minute that a man of your intelligence could be serious.

That's a rather cunning 'Catch 22' style proposition, isn't it?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet, Darren?

 

[BladeFisher]

It's true that Weir is an unknown quantity. He might not be cut out for management, or he may be the next Brian Clough. Either way, we have to hold our nerve, at least until Christmas. Eight games is too soon to be calling for his head.

In his first managerial job Clough had a win percentage of 41.6%. Ironically his record at Leeds was better (P7 W1 D3 L3) than Weir's - and they sacked him!

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I think I perhaps saw more than you. You clearly stopped watching when Deane and Agana left. Bassett took over a team in the bottom half of Division Two and left much the same. He won precisely nothing. His 'success' was to give us four years of First Division football with players that had no right to be there. It was exciting and I enjoyed it as much as anyone. That's why I travelled all over the country to watch it. However, many (far more than you would like to think) were so alienated by the rudimentary 'style' that they declined to travel even as far as Bramall Lane to watch it. Why do you think Bassett has not been employed as a manager since the tender age of 57? Surely his carefully organised strategies would be in great demand? Or has he been a call centre operator for Quickfix Mickey?

His 'style' was found out and discredited long ago. Everyone but a few parochial, non-footballing, club-wielding cavemen in S2 agrees.

So you travelled all over the country to watch terrible players “hoof the ball aimlessly in the direction of no one in particular” but it was exciting and you enjoyed it?

Now you think those years of success we spent punching above our weight in the top flight are a shameful period in the club’s history that we should all be embarrassed about.

Well I’m not and I never will be. I hope one day we will play exciting, enjoyable, attacking football in the top division again. I won’t be ashamed about that either.

 

[alcoblade]

He won precisely nothing.

That's a silver bullet isn't it? What with the last 90 years of football bringing in so much silverware whenever hoof wasn't employed.

Sigh.

UTB

 

[Darren]

That's a rather cunning 'Catch 22' style proposition, isn't it?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet, Darren?

Not really, you could say "it's not a wind up and I truly believe that asserting what I do is consonant with intelligence".

 

[alcoblade]

you could say "it's not a wind up and I truly believe that asserting what I do is consonant with intelligence"...........

................which could only be a wind up.

UTB

 

[Pinchy]

Not really, you could say "it's not a wind up and I truly believe that asserting what I do is consonant with intelligence".

You could tell us whether or not you've stopped beating her.

 

[Darren]

You could tell us whether or not you've stopped beating her.

or I could say "I don't have a wife, so your premise is invalid. Next question".

 

[BladeFisher]

or I could say "I don't have a wife, so your premise is invalid. Next question".

Pinchy of the Bailey will be right back...after the break!

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

If you have players who can pass and move, that's fine. If not, you have to buy another team of players, or play in a different way.

Sorry but I agree with pinchy. Any decent footballer should be able to pass the ball and move into another position to receive it back. It's very very simple and if they can't grasp it then they should find another profession.