Kop needs urgent redevelopment

[reedy63]

The Prince ought to have a word with the guy from Qatar who is trying to be Man Utd from those very greedy American twats. get him interested in buying The Blades. One billion will do a lot cheaper than trying to get man utd. but then again,m talking pie in the sky. nowt wrong with dreaming there agean they don't come true most of the time.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Are you oblivious to our financial situation last season? You constantly say that you want development without saying where the money is coming from. You claim there’s a separate pot which there isn’t so which budget are you cutting? Transfers, wages, academy, back room or are you borrowing and not paying back?

Separate pot? There isn’t even one to piss in.

 

[blade too long]

people today wont stand on a dung heap to watch a good side , thats why every ground in the prem is such a high standard
you cant compete at the top with drawing in the extra fans and attracting players

fulham spending massively to build a huge new stand half in the Thames is about ambition to grow
we should in this age of premier league attraction easily be getting over 35k heading for 40k
Brighton are the guide , new ground new ambition new future a place in europe

 

[Stanthemanfan]

people today wont stand on a dung heap to watch a good side , thats why every ground in the prem is such a high standard
you cant compete at the top with drawing in the extra fans and attracting players

fulham spending massively to build a huge new stand half in the Thames is about ambition to grow
we should in this age of premier league attraction easily be getting over 35k heading for 40k
Brighton are the guide , new ground new ambition new future a place in europe

We've got a bigger ground than fulham and Brighton
They both have billionaire chairman

 

[jt64]

We've got a bigger ground than fulham and Brighton
They both have billionaire chairman

Ignoring that Brighton's stadium has more seats that can actually see both goals than we do, bigger does not equal better.

 

[blade too long]

We've got a bigger ground than fulham and Brighton
They both have billionaire chairman

Bigger but not newer

We've got a bigger ground than fulham and Brighton
They both have billionaire chairman

But they've gone from 15k gates to nearly 30k and can expand

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

For me it comes down to ambition. If the club wants to grow it needs to do something about the stadium, capacity wise and facilities. Of course we need a team fit to play in it. I always think how much easier it would be to sell the club to a player if he walked in and there was a massive new single tier Kop behind that goal instead of what we have now.

We’ll never be seen as a top club by players with the ground as it is.

 

[Sean Thornton]

For me it comes down to ambition. If the club wants to grow it needs to do something about the stadium, capacity wise and facilities. Of course we need a team fit to play in it. I always think how much easier it would be to sell the club to a player if he walked in and there was a massive new single tier Kop behind that goal instead of what we have now.

We’ll never be seen as a top club by players with the ground as it is.

Spending what little we have now on the Kop and there’d be no “top” players we could afford. The market we’d be shopping in, they’d be impressed that there were no holes in the Shirecliffe roof let alone a shiny new stand.

The genuine billionaires needed to buy the club, spend heavily on the team, build and redevelop the ground and academy simply aren’t looking at us.

 

[jt64]

Spending what little we have now on the Kop and there’d be no “top” players we could afford. The market we’d be shopping in, they’d be impressed that there were no holes in the Shirecliffe roof let alone a shiny new stand.

The genuine billionaires needed to buy the club, spend heavily on the team, build and redevelop the ground and academy simply aren’t looking at us.

I would have thought there would be a fair difference between the payment terms for a player and something like a new stand, and that the latter could be financed over a much longer term than any new signings (even given most transfers these days are via installments, it's hard to think they would ever last for longer than roughly the period of the player's contract), and at least partially offset by the increased commercial revenues a new stand would provide.

 

[noire]

I would have thought there would be a fair difference between the payment terms for a player and something like a new stand, and that the latter could be financed over a much longer term than any new signings (even given most transfers these days are via installments, it's hard to think they would ever last for longer than roughly the period of the player's contract), and at least partially offset by the increased commercial revenues a new stand would provide.

Completely correct. I don’t know why we seem to believe we have to pay for everything up front in cash. Or why we seem to believe that revenue generating infrastructure is a financial black hole.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I would have thought there would be a fair difference between the payment terms for a player and something like a new stand, and that the latter could be financed over a much longer term than any new signings (even given most transfers these days are via installments, it's hard to think they would ever last for longer than roughly the period of the player's contract), and at least partially offset by the increased commercial revenues a new stand would provide.

Rather obviously yes. However both still need paying. Which is the rather obvious point. How do we afford both at the same time initially - who will lend 100% of a new stand costs - and what happens if we get relegated and don’t get back up within three seasons?

These are issues owners have to face unlike us on here, where no fiscal responsibility exists.

 

[jt64]

Rather obviously yes. However both still need paying. Which is the rather obvious point. How do we afford both at the same time initially - who will lend 100% of a new stand costs - and what happens if we get relegated and don’t get back up within three seasons?

These are issues owners have to face unlike us on here, where no fiscal responsibility exists.

Well a starting point would be to work out three things:

a) how much a new Kop would cost
b) how much additional money a new Kop would generate compared to the status quo
c) what financing terms are available

a/c, no clue, you could certainly work out some element of b though. You'd need something down, but I'd be perfectly fine with saying "we'll ringfence £20-30 million of the next set of PL TV money we get for a new stand" if we're out of the perceived shit we've inherited, and then loan the rest

 

[metalblade]

Completely correct. I don’t know why we seem to believe we have to pay for everything up front in cash. Or why we seem to believe that revenue generating infrastructure is a financial black hole.

That's the Sheffield village mentality it holds back the city too. Can't spend a penny if ha'penny will do. Don't ever forget we are little old Sheffield United.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Completely correct. I don’t know why we seem to believe we have to pay for everything up front in cash. Or why we seem to believe that revenue generating infrastructure is a financial black hole.

Has anyone said we have to pay for a new stand up front? I doubt it.

We don’t pay for players up front either. You may have noticed last season we couldn’t meet the shopacheck pay later terms.

If you borrow for redevelopment you need additional return over and above your normal income. The position we find ourselves in now, likely a PL yo-yo club provides no income guarantees over the long term. Other than a billionaire owner or long term PL membership it’s a huge risk.

Finally, no one is against the idea. No one, so let’s not pretend otherwise. The sole point is currently we don’t have the funds or funding to pay for it. It really is that simple.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Well a starting point would be to work out three things:

a) how much a new Kop would cost
b) how much additional money a new Kop would generate compared to the status quo
c) what financing terms are available

a/c, no clue, you could certainly work out some element of b though. You'd need something down, but I'd be perfectly fine with saying "we'll ringfence £20-30 million of the next set of PL TV money we get for a new stand" if we're out of the perceived shit we've inherited, and then loan the rest

You can work out how much a new Kop would generate? Season upon season while we have a mortgage? Get Bettis on the phone now!

John Hassall probably thought the same some years ago.

 

[jt64]

You can work out how much a new Kop would generate? Season upon season while we have a mortgage? Get Bettis on the phone now!

Increased capacity multiplied by season ticket cost doesn't sound like the trickiest of calculations as a minimum estimate?

 

[reedy63]

Bramall Lane is more or less a town center location with a good transport link. Building a new stadium anywhere else in Sheffield is completely out of the question. I am sure most Blades fans will agree on that. At this present time, the club can't afford to redevelop Bramall Lane at this time. we must strengthen the team so that we can keep in the Premier League. I am sure most Blades Fans agree with that as well. To speed things up we need a new owner/owners. who can afford to bring in the players we need and pay for the redevelopment of The Lane. You only need to look at Man City they we in the worst state than us look where they are now.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Increased capacity multiplied by season ticket cost doesn't sound like the trickiest of calculations as a minimum estimate?

Let’s see your calculation. Including increased capacity and how you guarantee it all being filled.,Would the Kop still be the cheapest part of the ground ticket wise? There’s more to it than say 5000 extra seats on the Kop and every one is taken.

 

[s4-blade]

Personally I much prefer a proper football ground to one of these posh nonce arenas that get built these days

 

[PaulHalfway]

I would imagine the kop will only get upgraded when we have new owners, assuming they have the money to invest into the stadium etc

 

[YES Blade]

Bramall Lane is more or less a town center location with a good transport link. Building a new stadium anywhere else in Sheffield is completely out of the question. I am sure most Blades fans will agree on that. At this present time, the club can't afford to redevelop Bramall Lane at this time. we must strengthen the team so that we can keep in the Premier League. I am sure most Blades Fans agree with that as well. To speed things up we need a new owner/owners. who can afford to bring in the players we need and pay for the redevelopment of The Lane. You only need to look at Man City they we in the worst state than us look where they are now.

I reckon it’s going to get to the point in the near future where a new stadium will be suggested by the club.

The development of the Lane over many decades has completely lacked any long term planning. The redevelopment would be far far simpler if previous boards had an eye on the long term rather than the cheap option.

 

[reedy63]

If we can get a billionaire chairman/ Board this will speed things up as I quoted. Leaving Bramall Lane-never in a million years.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I reckon it’s going to get to the point in the near future where a new stadium will be suggested by the club.

The development of the Lane over many decades has completely lacked any long term planning. The redevelopment would be far far simpler if previous boards had an eye on the long term rather than the cheap option.

Agree with what you're saying but unfortunately don't think anyone, especially fans are interested in the long term.
Almost everything in football is based on the short term, the here and now.

For example if we bought loads of young players, who were all talented but incredibly inconsistent resulting in defeats/ relegation.
Then the board would get stick with loads of fans being negative and threatening to stop going, making revenue smaller.

Planning for the future is a big financial risk and doesn't make immediate sense, the club would receive massive criticism planning for the future.
It's a case of taking 2 steps backward in order to take 3 or 4 steps forward. Patience is a rare quality in society these days.

 

[YES Blade]

Agree with what you're saying but unfortunately don't think anyone, especially fans are interested in the long term.
Almost everything in football is based on the short term, the here and now.

For example if we bought loads of young players, who were all talented but incredibly inconsistent resulting in defeats/ relegation.
Then the board would get stick with loads of fans being negative and threatening to stop going, making revenue smaller.

Planning for the future is a big financial risk and doesn't make immediate sense, the club would receive massive criticism planning for the future.
It's a case of taking 2 steps backward in order to take 3 or 4 steps forward. Patience is a rare quality in society these days.

Generally when clubs announce a new stadium or new stands it’s received positively by the fans. A nice 3D design by an architect with a big sell on the positives usually does the trick.

The expectation is that we’ll get the shiny new stadium and also a great team to play in it. I doubt many would question the financial side of things too much and suggest the club don’t build the nice new stadium/stand.

 

[jt64]

Let’s see your calculation. Including increased capacity and how you guarantee it all being filled.,Would the Kop still be the cheapest part of the ground ticket wise? There’s more to it than say 5000 extra seats on the Kop and every one is taken.

Not sure why you're trying to overcomplicate what is an attempt to create a simple ballpark figure, but let's work on the following assumptions:

a) We have 5,000 season ticket holders on the Kop, it may well be more but let's call it that for simplicity
b) To reflect the improvement in facilities from 30 year old shithole to brand new stand, we can justifiably increase Kop pricing up to what it is in the Westfield/BLUT, I don't have exact figures on what a Kop ST is to hand, but calling it an extra £50/year doesn't seem too far off what the difference is
c) Increasing overall ground capacity by, say, 3,000 (as quoted in previous proposed plans, could theoretically be more but let's use that as a number) would allow us to increase the number of season tickets we can sell by the same. I would imagine this would actually be higher, as I would guess we are keeping more than we need to for pay on the gate that we need to (because nobody in their right mind would buy a season ticket in either shithole corner or with a restricted view, problems which would both go away with a new stand), but that's not necessarily important given the below
d) While we are currently selling out season tickets, both in and out of the Premier League, I would expect increased ST capacity to sell out, but I'll play devil's advocate and say we only actually sell an extra 2,000 of the increased capacity
e) Will use £450 as the new Kop season ticket price. I paid slightly cheaper in Westfield (see b), but that was both a renewal and in first wave, at any other time it is more so call it an average figure and/or factor in inflation by the time the thing actually opens

So for existing let's call it 5,000 x £50, for new let's call it 2,000 x £450, that's £1.15 million a season. Will round it down to £1m to account for using adult pricing given not everyone in the Kop is paying full rate (although I think it's probably more in the Kop percentage wise than other stands). This is using conservative figures for what the current count of season ticket holders is, expected future demand, and completely ignoring pay on the gate support and all other ancillary revenue.

We may differ on what we perceive the current and potential size of our fanbase to be, but I don't think anything I'm saying there is either unreasonable or overly optimistic (if anything, I'd say I'm being excessively cautious)?

 

[MobileBlade]

Not sure why you're trying to overcomplicate what is an attempt to create a simple ballpark figure, but let's work on the following assumptions:

a) We have 5,000 season ticket holders on the Kop, it may well be more but let's call it that for simplicity
b) To reflect the improvement in facilities from 30 year old shithole to brand new stand, we can justifiably increase Kop pricing up to what it is in the Westfield/BLUT, I don't have exact figures on what a Kop ST is to hand, but calling it an extra £50/year doesn't seem too far off what the difference is
c) Increasing overall ground capacity by, say, 3,000 (as quoted in previous proposed plans, could theoretically be more but let's use that as a number) would allow us to increase the number of season tickets we can sell by the same. I would imagine this would actually be higher, as I would guess we are keeping more than we need to for pay on the gate that we need to (because nobody in their right mind would buy a season ticket in either shithole corner or with a restricted view, problems which would both go away with a new stand), but that's not necessarily important given the below
d) While we are currently selling out season tickets, both in and out of the Premier League, I would expect increased ST capacity to sell out, but I'll play devil's advocate and say we only actually sell an extra 2,000 of the increased capacity
e) Will use £450 as the new Kop season ticket price. I paid slightly cheaper in Westfield (see b), but that was both a renewal and in first wave, at any other time it is more so call it an average figure and/or factor in inflation by the time the thing actually opens

So for existing let's call it 5,000 x £50, for new let's call it 2,000 x £450, that's £1.15 million a season. Will round it down to £1m to account for using adult pricing given not everyone in the Kop is paying full rate (although I think it's probably more in the Kop percentage wise than other stands). This is using conservative figures for what the current count of season ticket holders is, expected future demand, and completely ignoring pay on the gate support and all other ancillary revenue.

We may differ on what we perceive the current and potential size of our fanbase to be, but I don't think anything I'm saying there is either unreasonable or overly optimistic (if anything, I'd say I'm being excessively cautious)?

So that's the gross revenue. What's the build cost? And how much of that extra is net after other costs (eg extra stewarding, increased business rates etc)?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Generally when clubs announce a new stadium or new stands it’s received positively by the fans. A nice 3D design by an architect with a big sell on the positives usually does the trick.

The expectation is that we’ll get the shiny new stadium and also a great team to play in it. I doubt many would question the financial side of things too much and suggest the club don’t build the nice new stadium/stand.

But you just know that a lot of our fans would find loads of things in the new ground to whine about once it was built.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Not sure why you're trying to overcomplicate what is an attempt to create a simple ballpark figure, but let's work on the following assumptions:

a) We have 5,000 season ticket holders on the Kop, it may well be more but let's call it that for simplicity
b) To reflect the improvement in facilities from 30 year old shithole to brand new stand, we can justifiably increase Kop pricing up to what it is in the Westfield/BLUT, I don't have exact figures on what a Kop ST is to hand, but calling it an extra £50/year doesn't seem too far off what the difference is
c) Increasing overall ground capacity by, say, 3,000 (as quoted in previous proposed plans, could theoretically be more but let's use that as a number) would allow us to increase the number of season tickets we can sell by the same. I would imagine this would actually be higher, as I would guess we are keeping more than we need to for pay on the gate that we need to (because nobody in their right mind would buy a season ticket in either shithole corner or with a restricted view, problems which would both go away with a new stand), but that's not necessarily important given the below
d) While we are currently selling out season tickets, both in and out of the Premier League, I would expect increased ST capacity to sell out, but I'll play devil's advocate and say we only actually sell an extra 2,000 of the increased capacity
e) Will use £450 as the new Kop season ticket price. I paid slightly cheaper in Westfield (see b), but that was both a renewal and in first wave, at any other time it is more so call it an average figure and/or factor in inflation by the time the thing actually opens

So for existing let's call it 5,000 x £50, for new let's call it 2,000 x £450, that's £1.15 million a season. Will round it down to £1m to account for using adult pricing given not everyone in the Kop is paying full rate (although I think it's probably more in the Kop percentage wise than other stands). This is using conservative figures for what the current count of season ticket holders is, expected future demand, and completely ignoring pay on the gate support and all other ancillary revenue.

We may differ on what we perceive the current and potential size of our fanbase to be, but I don't think anything I'm saying there is either unreasonable or overly optimistic (if anything, I'd say I'm being excessively cautious)?

It’s actually not that simple. Firstly you have to take into account

Not sure why you're trying to overcomplicate what is an attempt to create a simple ballpark figure, but let's work on the following assumptions:

a) We have 5,000 season ticket holders on the Kop, it may well be more but let's call it that for simplicity
b) To reflect the improvement in facilities from 30 year old shithole to brand new stand, we can justifiably increase Kop pricing up to what it is in the Westfield/BLUT, I don't have exact figures on what a Kop ST is to hand, but calling it an extra £50/year doesn't seem too far off what the difference is
c) Increasing overall ground capacity by, say, 3,000 (as quoted in previous proposed plans, could theoretically be more but let's use that as a number) would allow us to increase the number of season tickets we can sell by the same. I would imagine this would actually be higher, as I would guess we are keeping more than we need to for pay on the gate that we need to (because nobody in their right mind would buy a season ticket in either shithole corner or with a restricted view, problems which would both go away with a new stand), but that's not necessarily important given the below
d) While we are currently selling out season tickets, both in and out of the Premier League, I would expect increased ST capacity to sell out, but I'll play devil's advocate and say we only actually sell an extra 2,000 of the increased capacity
e) Will use £450 as the new Kop season ticket price. I paid slightly cheaper in Westfield (see b), but that was both a renewal and in first wave, at any other time it is more so call it an average figure and/or factor in inflation by the time the thing actually opens

So for existing let's call it 5,000 x £50, for new let's call it 2,000 x £450, that's £1.15 million a season. Will round it down to £1m to account for using adult pricing given not everyone in the Kop is paying full rate (although I think it's probably more in the Kop percentage wise than other stands). This is using conservative figures for what the current count of season ticket holders is, expected future demand, and completely ignoring pay on the gate support and all other ancillary revenue.

We may differ on what we perceive the current and potential size of our fanbase to be, but I don't think anything I'm saying there is either unreasonable or overly optimistic (if anything, I'd say I'm being excessively cautious)?

There are no variables in there that have to be looked at in real life. Firstly, strip the vat out.

Secondly on a capacity increase of 3000 are you assuming that there’s a 100% take up from new customers? If so, how does a season where the average gate is less?

What happens to your income figures if new customers don’t total 3000 but 3000 existing ST holders move from other parts of the ground where ST prices are higher?

The figure of £450 - l know it’s just an example - is a biggish rise and you’d also expect that prices would rise elsewhere in the ground. How many people is that likely to price out altogether?

That’s without even thinking about attendance drops.

Etc etc etc

There’s a lot more for the powers that be to have to think about other than a x b = whoopee on a fag packet.

 

[Sean Thornton]

But you just know that a lot of our fans would find loads of things in the new ground to whine about once it was built.

“The new robot staff are fucking useless and Hestons snail porridge had sold out before 2.15pm”

 

[reedy63]

Guesswork no one knows how many season tickets The Blaves have sold or what the season ticket capacity is. only certain people working for the Blades know you could be a way off the mark. I keep quoting. nowt will happen with big transfers or ground development. until a mega-rich person/consortium is in place.