Shoreham Boys- offensive?

[YES Blade]

Because we all know there are lines we do not cross

So in some cases it’s “just words”, but in other cases it’s no longer “just words”, it’s offensive?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Unlike many I think this is a good thread. It is useful to discuss this kind of issue and get the opinions out there. It is part of a wider cultural conversation but is particularly relevant for us as twenty odd thousand Blades roar the chant together (on a good day ). The world is changing and obviously football changes with it. The Stoke ‘Delilah’ debate appeared on here recently, for example.

For those who say ‘it is just a song’ or a ‘joke’ you are clearly right and I’m sure most do not actively intend offence or see an issue. However, for those who have used this line they would have to logically extend it to defending a racist chant. People used to defend racist chants as ‘just a song’. Perhaps a racist chant meant no real harm, but I imagine very few now would support this. How about a homophobic chant? If someone wants to return and defend the ‘it’s just a song’ or a ‘joke’ position extended to these other issues then fair enough, but, without this, that particular argument does not stand up.

Similarly the discussion is not about singing about ‘beer’ and this is another unconvincing defence. A poll about this would not split the fan base (small sample but the best we have). It could conceivably be a debate about beer in the future (or Woodbines etc.) but we are not there yet and no one to my knowledge has found an issue with it. Anyone commenting on here is clearly aware there is an issue with the last line, whatever your opinion. That is the question here, and deflecting from this by making it about other words in this or other chants is another weak defence. There has been more interesting debate about is the chant ‘sexist or misogynist’ or the use of the possessive pronoun ‘your’, and I can genuinely see the different sides of the argument here. I would personally go with misogyny (unintended, but it usually is), but I understand that is more of an opinion than ‘proven’ by the words themselves.

The majority who don’t like this thread seem less likely to be bothered by the words or perhaps don’t like their behaviour being questioned (but I could be wrong). If you think it is not worth talking about then fair enough, but I’m reading this sort of comment as it is supporting the chant. I get the argument that there are more important issues, but that is true of almost anything we talk about on here.

We are a family of four ST holders including my youngest son and, like most, sing the first bit then not the last line as it is both outdated and inappropriate for children. We used to sing ‘we all like a drink of beer’ loudly instead of the last line to drown it out for the young un, but now just mumble our version as we don’t really hear the ‘shag’ bit around us, even away it is usually mumbled and so reduces the chant. We are not personally ‘triggered’ or ‘offended’ by it, but it is embarrassing. I have three daughters who have seen us play home and away and obviously heard the chant, and it is unpleasant and a barrier. They do not attend regularly. I am not saying it is this specific song that has done this, but it is part of the wider culture. It is no different to some blokes singing those words to your mothers / daughters / whoever in the street, and just being in a footy crowd is not a convincing defence. Of course some girls or women may not have an issue with this, that is their prerogative. I would understand it is likely to be ‘just a song’ or a ‘joke’ but If I was asked if we should tolerate this sort of language in that context I would say no.

No one wants to ‘ban’ the chant, it is simply that the world is changing, the majority of the fans are themselves already changing this chant by not belting out the last bit, and this thread is another bit of the process. I am not expecting everyone to agree or think it is important, but perhaps they can at least see how others might feel.

I’m not a fan of the thread, due to some of the reactions to it.

“For those who say ‘it is just a song’ or a ‘joke’ you are clearly right and I’m sure most do not actively intend offence or see an issue. However, for those who have used this line they would have to logically extend it to defending a racist chant.”

That last line is a nonsense. There’s nothing logical about it. To suggest that anyone, in fact everyone according to you, thinking it’s just a song would automatically have the same view of a racist chant suggests an opinion not based on logic but on personal opinion. Similarly, do the kidney punching jokes mean racist ones would be acceptable to those who post them on here.

Bringing race into it takes it to a new low pushing some theory that racism is somehow condoned by a large tranche of our fan base. Shameful.

 

[Foxy]

End of the day it's words. Just words. Whatever happened to 'sticks and stones may break my bones'?

You try telling that to my sausage dog who - thanks to a section of fans - now thinks he’s got a reputation for having a small appendage as they only mention the Blades tattoo and not all the others.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

You try telling that to my sausage dog who - thanks to a section of fans - now thinks he’s got a reputation for having a small appendage as they only mention the Blades tattoo and not all the others.

He makes up for it by being supersonic

 

[Bladeloyal]

Any that are racist or homophobic, which are rightly no longer sang by United fans?

Which were those by the way ,I've been going from 1967 and never heard a racist or homophobic song .unless you include Georgie best super star carries a hand bag and wears a bra . But I thought that one was very inclusive for the time

 

[shorehamview]

You try telling that to my sausage dog who - thanks to a section of fans - now thinks he’s got a reputation for having a small appendage as they only mention the Blades tattoo and not all the others.

Does it also think it’s a cat?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Does it also think it’s a cat?

Is it a metaphor?

 

[YES Blade]

Which were those by the way ,I've been going from 1967 and never heard a racist or homophobic song .unless you include Georgie best super star carries a hand bag and wears a bra . But I thought that one was very inclusive for the time

You’ve never seen United play Bradford or Leicester and heard the “you’re just a town full of p***s” song? Or when we’ve played Brighton and heard the “you only sing when you’re bumming” or “does your boyfriend know you’re here” songs?

I’d class that as racist and homophobic.

 

[s20Blade]

Shoreham boys we are in residence
Have intercourse with your females and consume your beverages whoooah-oooooh

 

[Birdwell Blade]

You try telling that to my sausage dog who - thanks to a section of fans - now thinks he’s got a reputation for having a small appendage as they only mention the Blades tattoo and not all the others.

Think the last time I heard that was the semi final vs Hull in the boozer before.

 

[Nickydblade]

I’m not a fan of the thread, due to some of the reactions to it.

“For those who say ‘it is just a song’ or a ‘joke’ you are clearly right and I’m sure most do not actively intend offence or see an issue. However, for those who have used this line they would have to logically extend it to defending a racist chant.”

That last line is a nonsense. There’s nothing logical about it. To suggest that anyone, in fact everyone according to you, thinking it’s just a song would automatically have the same view of a racist chant suggests an opinion not based on logic but on personal opinion. Similarly, do the kidney punching jokes mean racist ones would be acceptable to those who post them on here.

Bringing race into it takes it to a new low pushing some theory that racism is somehow condoned by a large tranche of our fan base. Shameful.

I disagree and think it is a completely logical move. To repeat the (simple) point for clarity; if you defend one use of language because it is ‘just’ a song then it is logical that you can say that about another use of language. If one opinion can be defended as ‘just a song’ then you cannot cherry pick when a different one crosses your own arbitrary line (although some have attempted to do this as they claim there is an ‘obvious’ line to be drawn, but it is more obvious to me it is a constantly shifting and debatable line).

You make a distinction between racism and (alleged) sexism but that is precisely the point. I am treating them, in this logical move, as the same, which is precisely the opposite of what you have interpreted.

You also, probably intentionally, attempt to misinterpret my point by claiming I said that people would ‘automatically have the same view of a racist chant’. I think it is clear that to make my point I was implying more people are now more sensitive and aware about racist chants than sexist ones, so they would react differently. There is a genuine debate to be had about the alleged sexism of the chant without you having to make stuff up to, presumably, justify earlier opinions

I see our ‘kidney punching’ jokes as a completely different thing, as I’m sure you, and I imagine everyone else, does.

As you have commented on my post, can I ask you directly... do you personally sing the ‘shag your women’ line? If no, do you have a reason why? If yes, do you accept the point that some people may find it either offensive or embarrassing?

 

[Sheffsteel]

It's a tricky one.

Banter is all part of football culture, especially when it's comical and witty
but then like in comedy, sometimes it can go over the edge or be in bad taste.

Think it's important to say that those signing these songs aren't gong to start action like vikings, raping and pillaging the locals.

 

[100% part time blade]

Would replacing ‘your’ with ‘more’ lead to more people joining in with the last line?

 

[Jimmy23]

Which were those by the way ,I've been going from 1967 and never heard a racist or homophobic song .unless you include Georgie best super star carries a hand bag and wears a bra . But I thought that one was very inclusive for the time

I thought it was Cantona

 

[Bladesman]

Would replacing ‘your’ with ‘more’ lead to more people joining in with the last line?

Shag more women?

 

[robbiez666]

Think it's important to say that those signing these songs aren't gong to start action like vikings, raping and pillaging the locals.

Thing is, there are young men. Many young men. who do harass, abuse, assault and rape women. To say not football fans drunkenly singing a song about shagging women is possibly a little naive but it's more about perception? It's also an extension of the laddish culture which has led to rape culture. Not exactly a pleasant environment for girls and women, most of whom will be the victim of some sort of sexual abuse or harassment at some stage in their lives, to be in.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I disagree and think it is a completely logical move. To repeat the (simple) point for clarity; if you defend one use of language because it is ‘just’ a song then it is logical that you can say that about another use of language. If one opinion can be defended as ‘just a song’ then you cannot cherry pick when a different one crosses your own arbitrary line (although some have attempted to do this as they claim there is an ‘obvious’ line to be drawn, but it is more obvious to me it is a constantly shifting and debatable line).

You make a distinction between racism and (alleged) sexism but that is precisely the point. I am treating them, in this logical move, as the same, which is precisely the opposite of what you have interpreted.

You also, probably intentionally, attempt to misinterpret my point by claiming I said that people would ‘automatically have the same view of a racist chant’. I think it is clear that to make my point I was implying more people are now more sensitive and aware about racist chants than sexist ones, so they would react differently. There is a genuine debate to be had about the alleged sexism of the chant without you having to make stuff up to, presumably, justify earlier opinions

I see our ‘kidney punching’ jokes as a completely different thing, as I’m sure you, and I imagine everyone else, does.

As you have commented on my post, can I ask you directly... do you personally sing the ‘shag your women’ line? If no, do you have a reason why? If yes, do you accept the point that some people may find it either offensive or embarrassing?

You decided to find racism in a thread where there was none. So you stooped to inventing racists. No end of assuming superior attitudes can hide that fact. As l said, shameful.

I’m surprised you found the thread actually. General Blades Chat isn’t somewhere you frequent although l know the takeover thread gave you a moment of concern over a possible white South African owners “history” and that of the House of Saud - if you want to look for racism amongst some of our fan base, start there - a recurring theme of yours. which l have no issue with.

As for your question, no l don’t sing it. I haven’t sung for well over twenty years (boo, hiss, FOTH etc) but no, l would sing it. However my point was about your claim that anyone accepting it would by necessity accept racist chants. Do you have any actual evidence that anyone saying they do sing it MUST therefore think racist songs are just a song, a bit of fun? Or do you just wallow in your own satisfaction that you “outed” people you don’t know, have never met, know nothing of their views on racism to fit in with your own inbuilt prejudices? A bigot is a bigot, not very nice people in my experience.

 

[Nickydblade]

You decided to find racism in a thread where there was none. So you stooped to inventing racists. No end of assuming superior attitudes can hide that fact. As l said, shameful.

I’m surprised you found the thread actually. General Blades Chat isn’t somewhere you frequent although l know the takeover thread gave you a moment of concern over a possible white South African owners “history” and that of the House of Saud - if you want to look for racism amongst some of our fan base, start there - a recurring theme of yours. which l have no issue with.

As for your question, no l don’t sing it. I haven’t sung for well over twenty years (boo, hiss, FOTH etc) but no, l would sing it. However my point was about your claim that anyone accepting it would by necessity accept racist chants. Do you have any actual evidence that anyone saying they do sing it MUST therefore think racist songs are just a song, a bit of fun? Or do you just wallow in your own satisfaction that you “outed” people you don’t know, have never met, know nothing of their views on racism to fit in with your own inbuilt prejudices? A bigot is a bigot, not very nice people in my experience.

That wasn’t the point as I assume most would understand. I think your take on this is a strange one, even more so your development of the issue linked to potential owners, but if that is what’s you genuinely think so be it, I will leave it there.

Thank you for your reply to my direct question, it is appreciated.

 

[Nade]

That wasn’t the point as I assume most would understand. I think your take on this is a strange one, even more so your development of the issue linked to potential owners, but if that is what’s you genuinely think so be it, I will leave it there.

Thank you for your reply to my direct question, it is appreciated.

99% will understand the point, and will understand it being (potentially deliberately) twisted and misunderstood

 

[Sean Thornton]

99% will understand the point, and will understand it being (potentially deliberately) twisted and misunderstood

Yawn.

 

[Nade]

Yawn.

Just yawn mate, don't need to write it down

 

[Jonny2sheds]

Just heard “I shot the Sheriff” on Radio 2 - a fairly controversial title in this sensitive day and age. I’m amazed the BBC haven’t banned it yet! Trying to think of others. There must be loads. Your reaction all depends on whether you want to be offended or not.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

Unoriginal, offensive and embarrassing.

Imagine standing next to your young daughter singing that shite.

In the bin.

 

[GrunkyPeep]

Nothings offensive. It's the person listening who interprets it as. Take cancer jokes. I'm not offended. That's despite having cancer. Ergo, offended equals weak.

After watching my mum slowly wither away, losing her health, her mind, and everything else in the process due to cancer. Ger fucked with this kind of shit.

I have memories of my mum's deterioration and final hours that I will never forget, and will haunt me for the rest of my life.

Each time someone makes a joke about cancer, I'm transported back to that room trying to comfort someone going through the worst kind of hell. I can and will laugh and makes jokes about almost every topic without any issues, but that one topic is off-limit due to what I went through.

Yes, I'm offended, and I have every right to be.

Fuck this offended equals weak bullshit. People have go so up their own arse about the stupid culture wars that they are starting to lose compassion and actually thinking about the experience of other people.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

After watching my mum slowly wither away, losing her health, her mind, and everything else in the process due to cancer. Ger fucked with this kind of shit.

I have memories of my mum's deterioration and final hours that I will never forget, and will haunt me for the rest of my life.

Each time someone makes a joke about cancer, I'm transported back to that room trying to comfort someone going through the worst kind of hell. I can and will laugh and makes jokes about almost every topic without any issues, but that one topic is off-limit due to what I went through.

Yes, I'm offended, and I have every right to be.

Fuck this offended equals weak bullshit. People have go so up their own arse about the stupid culture wars that they are starting to lose compassion and actually thinking about the experience of other people.

Im battling cancer myself. I'm not offended by jokes about cancer. This battle, if I survive it, will haunt me forever, too. I've never experienced such a swing of pain and emotion that comes and goes without warning. I can lay in bed and just start crying for nowt. So despite it being your mum going through it which must have been difficult, at least it wasn't you. Like it is me. Tell me to get fucked all day if you want but you've actually picked the wrong person to preach to this time.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Time for this thread to get pulled .

 

[Nade]

Im battling cancer myself. I'm not offended by jokes about cancer. This battle, if I survive it, will haunt me forever, too. I've never experienced such a swing of pain and emotion that comes and goes without warning. I can lay in bed and just start crying for nowt. So despite it being your mum going through it which must have been difficult, at least it wasn't you. Like it is me. Tell me to get fucked all day if you want but you've actually picked the wrong person to preach to this time.

People are impacted in different ways to things that happen. Your experience doesn't invalidate his, and his doesn't invalidate yours.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

People are impacted in different ways to things that happen. Your experience doesn't invalidate his, and his doesn't invalidate yours.

So telling me to get fucked is a bit much then?

 

[Katzenjammer]

Crikey, are they still nagging about that song?

Probably the time of the month.

 

[brownblade]

Too many people "triggered" and not actually listening to each others points. There are plenty of reasonable explanations of why people want to change the lyrics.

Look, 28% of voters think it's misogynistic. 29% said it's embarrassing. That dwarves the 37% that have no problem with it.

I personally rarely sing the last line. In my opinion it's just NOT "inclusive" of any female fans in attendance, also a bad example to set for young boys and men.

The song is edgy banter for men of a certain age. Single men presumably (lucky bastards).

For everyone else it's embarrassing/offensive/inappropriate/regrettable. There's no point being annoyed if you're in the 37% that voted yes - and nobody is going to actually stop you singing it - but it's a debate on the topic for consideration.