Let me spell it out for you Clappers

[Crouchy]

If it was me who had won the £150m lottery this weekend:

1. I'd never have gone public.
2. I'd never in a million years buy Sheffield United FC because (and it's not unique to SUFC) the ownership of a football club is a sure fire way to get dozens of people spitting bile about you no matter what your intentions or loyalties.

McCabe has done a lot for SUFC and has also made some poor decisions. Spare him the vitriol.

In my experience (and disregarding the tax differences between property companies and normal trading companies) there are a couple of obvious reasons why you would move the land assets out of the football company and into company B

1. You wish to sell the football company, or an interest in it, and retain the land assets.
2. You wish to sell company B, or an interest in it, and retain the football company.

I know which one looks more likely to me.

Incidentally, the whole rent thing is a red herring. Under most circumstances the company which owns the assets is under a legal obligation to charge a commercial rent (Google "transfer pricing" if you are really interested). As long as both companies remain part of the same group then the rent constitutes wooden dollars in the group consolidated accounts and there is no advantage or disadvantage in charging rent other than compliance with HMRC rules.

 

[Micalijo]

Or a shareholder might want to actually ask the company what is going on rather than spouting provocative bollocks on a message board...

Your sweet innocence about what response anyone would get is really brightening my day.

 

[beightonblade]

McCabe has done a lot for SUFC .............. we know.....look where it has got us !

'transfer pricing' priceless ! ........ NEVER forget McCabe is no fool when it comes to money/freeholds ......
mind yer he's a reight fooking dunce at running a football club.

 

[Darren]

Your sweet innocence about what response anyone would get is really brightening my day.

Why don't you want to prove people like me comprehensively wrong by sending the letter and posting such a response on here?

 

[Micalijo]

If it was me who had won the £150m lottery this weekend:

1. I'd never have gone public.
2. I'd never in a million years buy Sheffield United FC because (and it's not unique to SUFC) the ownership of a football club is a sure fire way to get dozens of people spitting bile about you no matter what your intentions or loyalties.

McCabe has done a lot for SUFC and has also made some poor decisions. Spare him the vitriol.

In my experience (and disregarding the tax differences between property companies and normal trading companies) there are a couple of obvious reasons why you would move the land assets out of the football company and into company B

1. You wish to sell the football company, or an interest in it, and retain the land assets.
2. You wish to sell company B, or an interest in it, and retain the football company.

I know which one looks more likely to me.

Incidentally, the whole rent thing is a red herring. Under most circumstances the company which owns the assets is under a legal obligation to charge a commercial rent (Google "transfer pricing" if you are really interested). As long as both companies remain part of the same group then the rent constitutes wooden dollars in the group consolidated accounts and there is no advantage or disadvantage in charging rent other than compliance with HMRC rules.

Transfer pricing rules only apply to large groups I believe - Scarborough may fall within the limits, and it would be hard to judge what a commercial rate would be for a football ground wouldn't it? Plenty of scope for a decent charge


fair points though but diagree about the no advan/disadvantage. Cash goes into SUFC Ltd from ticket sales etc, cash goes out for rent, yes that is an expense in one company and profit in the other so no affect on consolidation but the cash is vital to SUFC Ltd and no doubt vital to other property companies - SUFC Ltd 'suffers'.

 

[diplomat]

Not going to happen.................... in a few years I can see most of the car parks being full of high rise apartments, student flats and small retail outlets. We already have a hotel and business centre eating into land that should be there for football club development and now they want to build on the back of the kop/south stand corner, in a few years it will not be worth buying back, not as a football stadium anyway.

I do take issue with the development of the ground that is not for the benefit of the club. The Enterprise Centre, the hotel, any future flats etc. Do we really get absolutely nowt from them? I don't really buy in to the idea that everything we do is loss making either and that moving these assets away from the club is beneficial. A long term view and proper management would result in an income stream.

 

[Ted Danson]

Why don't you want to prove people like me comprehensively wrong by sending the letter and posting such a response on here?

^^^^^This

 

[metalblade]

I do take issue with the development of the ground that is not for the benefit of the club. The Enterprise Centre, the hotel, any future flats etc. Do we really get absolutely nowt from them? I don't really buy in to the idea that everything we do is loss making either and that moving these assets away from the club is beneficial. A long term view and proper management would result in an income stream.

I just like traditional football grounds with a bit of character not these posh new bowls with a wavy roof and curves etc built close to an out of town retail park or older grounds with hotels and enterprise centres shoehorned into corners, football stadiums should be just that............ for football and football fans. When did a fookin hotel or a few shops ever pay for a top striker ?

 

[StarBlade]

I'm not sure that is common knowledge in terms of it being a fact. The word I keep hearing/reading is investment rather than the actual sale of the football club.

There are several different possiblities here and everyone can only make assumptions. My guess is that the McCabes want to keep their hand in the club but attract investment into the playing side only. Effectively keeping all of the assets within the SUFC group so that any potential investors can stake their claim for assets on the pitch only. In short it would appear to me that they are desperate for someone else to fund the football side of things without putting the tangible assets of the club at risk.

By doing this it perceivably protects both the club and KM's previous investment as no matter what, his company will continue to own the most valuable asset the club has.....its land and the stadium. Seems fair enough to me but then again I can only speculate like your good self.

That's how I see it too, but I don't see it making sense in my speculative mind.

The FC side makes huge losses and without assets I can't see how it's viable. We were losing £10M+ per annum in the Championship. We lost approx £12M last season according to KM, and despite the cost cutting, I'm sure we're making substantial losses this season.

I also can't imagine someone wanting to invest in the playing side only while someone else holds the only tangible assets. The only way for someone to get a financial return in the playing side would probably be to sell players, or to get United to the Premier League. It would take a substantial investment just to get close to somewhere near the Premier League.

 

[Wapping Blade]

That's how I see it too, but I don't see it making sense in my speculative mind.

The FC side makes huge losses and without assets I can't see how it's viable. We were losing £10M+ per annum in the Championship. We lost approx £12M last season according to KM, and despite the cost cutting, I'm sure we're making substantial losses this season.

I also can't imagine someone wanting to invest in the playing side only while someone else holds the only tangible assets. The only way for someone to get a financial return in the playing side would probably be to sell players, or to get United to the Premier League. It would take a substantial investment just to get close to somewhere near the Premier League.

Yes, it doesn't make sense but lots of people are buying into clubs as they think they can take them to the promised land, ego over logic perhaps?

 

[UnitedBlade]

OK, I'll have a go.

Firstly, if United move from BTDBL, that's me done. I just can't visualise watching them anywhere else.

Obviously McCabe has taken huge hits on his core business from property revaluations. I don't know enough about whether he is properly geared to become a big winner once the global recession turns. But with what he's shovelled into SUFC so far I don't think he'll be putting these sums in again whether he becomes super rich or destitute.

We won't know his full intentions on SUFC unless he is completely overt about his intentions and we all know he can be slippery. The only evidence we have from the letters is saying that it is a (final ?) attempt to attract an investor. I think he's trying to put the assets out of their reach but hoping to get sufficient cash for the club to have a go.

So what's in it for these investors ? Like all the other mugs with more money than sense, it's the hope of getting to the Premier League. You get there once and you have a full season's revenue plus a guaranteed £48M parachute payment even if you get relegated first season [typically United's luck that this increased the year after we went down].

That's the only carrot and maybe there's someone out there with this new arrangement who would be willing to have a go. If not we plod along as we are and hope the Academy blesses us with improved players.

UTB

 

[TarquinDelouche]

Good letter but no need for it to be sent - I have told you what is happening!

It's true. He did tell us all what is happening. However, he also told us this:

Of course I do not know the facts...

 

[Darren]

It's true. He did tell us all what is happening. However, he also told us this:

But there's no point sending the letter as his clairvoyance tells us what response he will get even before the letter i sent.

 

[shorehamview]

Do you froth at the mouth with excitement every time I post?

No. I usually have to throw a bucket of cold water over my Shitometer, as your posts tend to cause it to overheat somewhat.

 

[Micalijo]

It's true. He did tell us all what is happening. However, he also told us this:

As McCabe knows from his reports in the accounts, the use of an exclamation mark is meant to donate a joke or a light hearted comment.

I think McCabe is going to charge rent as a means of getting some of his wedge back. This weaken the football club. Very simple statement, very simple opinion. What do you think again?

 

[TarquinDelouche]

What do you think again?

I think I could probably speculate five different scenarios. Wouldn't make any of them true if I posted them and stated them as true though would it?

 

[mekkyblade]

Will someone just send the feckin letter. Mic won't because he prefers to believe his own arguements and has no desire wotsoever to either substantiate or disprove them. I would be very interested to hear what the reply is

 

[mekkyblade]

^^^^^This

^^^^^ this too

 

[Micalijo]

But there's no point sending the letter as his clairvoyance tells us what response he will get even before the letter i sent.

Seriously Darren, forget about what I have said before - do you really, genuinely think that McCabe or a cronie would write back and say 'yes sir, plc is charging £x per annum and any new owner of Ltd could in theory dcline to pay the rent and move SUFC to DVS for example?

 

[Micalijo]

Will someone just send the feckin letter. Mic won't because he prefers to believe his own arguements and has no desire wotsoever to either substantiate or disprove them. I would be very interested to hear what the reply is

Of course I believe my own points - I think McCabe is charging rent to get some wedge back. Is that really an outlandish statement?

 

[beightonblade]

Well McCabe knows of the unrest between Blades, the lack of info in the letter tells me he is acting like a prat or his intentions are not in the best interest of the Blades.

 

[Pedro Verde]

I havent read the whole thread but a couple of points with regard to the Financial Fair Play rules with which SUFC should be complying with this season

1 - With regard to turnover / wages ratio which company will be assessed by the Football League Sheffield United FC or SUFC PLC (or whoever the company is we are paying rent to)

2 - With regard to attracting new investment, is this really possible / viable at this time due to regulations on turnover, wouldnt the new investment make no difference as this would not increase our turnover and therefore we wouldnt be able to increase our wage bill as we are already struggling to get within the rules on our current turnover

 

[UnitedBlade]

I havent read the whole thread but a couple of points with regard to the Financial Fair Play rules with which SUFC should be complying with this season

1 - With regard to turnover / wages ratio which company will be assessed by the Football League Sheffield United FC or SUFC PLC (or whoever the company is we are paying rent to)

2 - With regard to attracting new investment, is this really possible / viable at this time due to regulations on turnover, wouldnt the new investment make no difference as this would not increase our turnover and therefore we wouldnt be able to increase our wage bill as we are already struggling to get within the rules on our current turnover

The second point is an interesting point but I think you could structure wages with extremely large promotion incentives which an investment partner with deep pockets could pay as and when we go up.

This would help us to attract better players than most in the division.

The key is getting out of this division, the really deeper pockets are needed for the Championship and then of course back to silly wages (but much better revenue) if you get to the PL.

That's my take on things anyway. It's the gamblers who are attracted as investors, let's just hope we don't get the ones that are good at bluffing.

 

[Pinchy]

This freehold caper was a dead cert !
McCabe is a property man....his eyes light up when he see a 'reight' deal on property.....have a look into his history.
Now transfering assets between group companies is nothing new but sometimes it is reight clever ! HMRC don't like it up em.

I would suggest two options

1. McCabe is going to rip us off.
2. McCabe is protecting us.

Do you trust him ?

Yes I do. For such a clever man he is doing an awful job of ripping us off! Isn't it traditional to fatten the beast before the feast?

 

[Bladesway]

Is that a bit like calling someone a smart arse but putting it in quotation marks to show that you aren't "really" saying it?

No it isn't, im just smart enough to choose my words carefully.

 

[beightonblade]

Yes I do. For such a clever man he is doing an awful job of ripping us off! Isn't it traditional to fatten the beast before the feast?

He tried to fatten the beast and failed, he's far from clever at running a football club in my opinion but in property I agree he's amongst the best.

 

[blade too long]

The real spelling out is we are losing money year by year in the current position , we are run by a fan mccabe whos own wealth has took a caning after the bank failings whos openly said he wanted out 4 years ago, but has kept us ticking over , and to be fair 90 points would 98 times out of 100 would have took us up, so disappointing as the outcome was is doing as much as he could, as hes taking a hit too, yes hes much better off than most of us ,but a lot worse off than he used to be.The fact the pigs took our place rubbed salt into an open wound for many, but again thats out of mccabes control

I know that wont curry any sympathy with most , but if you had for arguments sake won 120 million on euro lottery , thought Ill buy United Im a fan and then only had 30m left after a bit of success has waned , you might feel a little bit depressed, not destitute , but less enthusiastic
I have misgivings over some of his decisions, Robson being a doosey , but overall hes still a blade , so I wont want to destroy the bloke

 

[Darren]

Seriously Darren, forget about what I have said before - do you really, genuinely think that McCabe or a cronie would write back and say 'yes sir, plc is charging £x per annum and any new owner of Ltd could in theory dcline to pay the rent and move SUFC to DVS for example?

My personal view is that a man who has put £xmillion into the bottomless pit that is SUFC and who could have shafted the club at any time he chose is hardly going to start doing the latter now.

If you send the letter two things can happen:

1. You get a genuine reply which will put minds at rest; or
2. You will get some corporate bullshit which can be posted on here, disseminated amongst the fans and thus show that you were right all along, and put pressure on McCabe to actually come out with a genuine answer.

Either way you (and the rest of us) are winners. So I repeat, why not send the letter? It couldn't be that you are not actually really interested in finding out what is going on, but are actually far more interested in expressing your ego on here and lording it over us lesser beings who can't see the truth with your penetrating insight?

Could it?

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

Leave it alone Darren.....he doesn't want to meet McCabe, Batho or Winter.....just leave it alone!!!!

 

[TarquinDelouche]

If Mic posts his home address, I'll send him the letter. Then we'll get all the answers we need.