email from club - NO MORE TICKETS ON SALE IN KOP - standing & wrong seat usage

[Digs blade]

Maybe they were... they definitely haven't contributed for the last 10 years though. You don't seem to see that as a problem.

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One example here. Rangers Union Bears claimed a new section 15 years ago (they had a huge tifo celebrating it last week). Hull constantly change their standing section as the away end moves every few years.

I don't think most clubs officially do anything like I've suggested but what I do know is somehow almost every other club manages to find a huge standing section for their home fans, usually in an area that makes sense. Boro, Derby, Liverpool, Wolves, Cardiff, Hull, Spurs, Norwich, Ipswich, Leeds (both ends), Man United (both ends), Blackpool Some examples that quickly spring to mind. These areas didn't always stand up and I'm sure when that change happened it pissed alot of people off. Improved the atmosphere though.

What I find amazing is some peoples don't seem to see a serious problem that needs addressing with our atmosphere as it is.

Coventry away as well another great example. Right in the corner near to the away support. Probably no more than 500-600 last season but didn’t half make a racket.

To a lesser extent Bolton. Mainly youngish lads and probably no more than 200-300 but generate good noise in what would otherwise be a soulless stadium

 

[FB98]

Coventry away as well another great example. Right in the corner near to the away support. Probably no more than 500-600 last season but didn’t half make a racket.

To a lesser extent Bolton. Mainly youngish lads and probably no more than 200-300 but generate good noise in what would otherwise be a soulless stadium

Yeah.. at Coventry there's enough space for everyone to go where they want though haha. Agree those lads in the corner (I'd probably say more like 2500 this year) make an impressive racket though.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Maybe they were... they definitely haven't contributed for the last 10 years though. You don't seem to see that as a problem.

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One example here. Rangers Union Bears claimed a new section 15 years ago (they had a huge tifo celebrating it last week). Hull constantly change their standing section as the away end moves every few years.

I don't think most clubs officially do anything like I've suggested but what I do know is somehow almost every other club manages to find a huge standing section for their home fans, usually in an area that makes sense. Boro, Derby, Liverpool, Wolves, Cardiff, Hull, Spurs, Norwich, Ipswich, Leeds (both ends), Man United (both ends), Blackpool Some examples that quickly spring to mind. These areas didn't always stand up and I'm sure when that change happened it pissed alot of people off. Improved the atmosphere though.

What I find amazing is some peoples don't seem to see a serious problem that needs addressing with our atmosphere as it is.

'Some fans will be moved from their seats' (Palace).

Imagine it at Lane? They'd be like some just stop oil protestors chaining themselves to the steel frames. "I'VE SAT HERE FOR 25 YEARS YOU SAVAGES!!!"

Nobody says it needs to be overnight. Why not give 2 year notice?

"In 2 years the club will be allocating this many rows and this many seats on this particular stand to create a purpose-made singing section. We understand some fans will be upset but they do not have to move and won't be forced to. Just be aware that the area will be designated as a singing zone or a noise zone (whatever other term someone might want to put in here)."

If someone has been sat in the same spot since the seat was bolted in good for them. Nobody is asking them to shift. I just don't understand why some people are so absolutely against it.

 

[FB98]

'Some fans will be moved from their seats' (Palace).

Imagine it at Lane? They'd be like some just stop oil protestors chaining themselves to the steel frames. "I'VE SAT HERE FOR 25 YEARS YOU SAVAGES!!!"

Nobody says it needs to be overnight. Why not give 2 year notice?

"In 2 years the club will be allocating this many rows and this many seats on this particular stand to create a purpose-made singing section. We understand some fans will be upset but they do not have to move and won't be forced to. Just be aware that the area will be designated as a singing zone or a noise zone (whatever other term someone might want to put in here)."

If someone has been sat in the same spot since the seat was bolted in good for them. Nobody is asking them to shift. I just don't understand why some people are so absolutely against it.

Sounds a very fair compromise

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Sounds a very fair compromise

Like I say, some are just totally against it and the thing is, those against it aren't bothered anyway. They'll sit on the south or John Street so wouldn't be put out of place. It's just an argument they want to have on someone elses behalf. If I was the only person in a certain section and was told it was to become a singing section crack on for me. 90 minutes listening to some enthusiastic group of Blades fans encouraging an atmosphere, what's not to like about the idea? With social media as popular as it is, and United use it often enough, they could easily gauge reaction to these kind of ideas. If nobody is bothered, then we'd be able to see it ourselves. Twitter poll 'would you support a singing section at Bramall Lane?' 80% no.

Ok. No appetite. Finished.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Maybe they were... they definitely haven't contributed for the last 10 years though. You don't seem to see that as a problem.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

One example here. Rangers Union Bears claimed a new section 15 years ago (they had a huge tifo celebrating it last week). Hull constantly change their standing section as the away end moves every few years.

I don't think most clubs officially do anything like I've suggested but what I do know is somehow almost every other club manages to find a huge standing section for their home fans, usually in an area that makes sense. Boro, Derby, Liverpool, Wolves, Cardiff, Hull, Spurs, Norwich, Ipswich, Leeds (both ends), Man United (both ends), Blackpool Some examples that quickly spring to mind. These areas didn't always stand up and I'm sure when that change happened it pissed alot of people off. Improved the atmosphere though.

What I find amazing is some peoples don't seem to see a serious problem that needs addressing with our atmosphere as it is.

So they are seated areas at those grounds where people are allowed to stand? That’s not the problem at BL is it? It’s standing in gangways and more than one in a seat space. You’re using a different scenario to try to show you’re a better fan. Which no matter how much you puff your chest out and crow, it’s doesn’t mean it’s the case.

Rail seating in a modernised Kop would l suspect need seat changes as you desire. Your idea of just chucking people out of their seat is just self entitled bollocks. What if - because that’s what we are talking about - what ifs, people are moved and their seats aren’t taken up by ttheth Superfans? And before you guarantee that won’t be the case, refresh your memory to the BLUT singing section. There was a clamour for this, Ricky put in a lot of time and effort and was badly let down ( l see history is being rewritten on this thread by suggesting it was the mockery that finished it of rather than people not being bothered even after loudly lauding the idea)

As an aside, where did all those non ST singers go last Saturday? You know, the apparent life blood of the support?

Maybe the current generation just aren’t as good at creating an atmosphere? When there is one is it you etc raising your game or the old farts joining in? G&H blocks don’t do bad with an older age group. Maybe those on the Kop are lacking a bit. Maybe the Charlie around isn’t as good as at away games?

 

[FB98]

So they are seated areas at those grounds where people are allowed to stand? That’s not the problem at BL is it? It’s standing in gangways and more than one in a seat space. You’re using a different scenario to try to show you’re a better fan. Which no matter how much you puff your chest out and crow, it’s doesn’t mean it’s the case.

Rail seating in a modernised Kop would l suspect need seat changes as you desire. Your idea of just chucking people out of their seat is just self entitled bollocks. What if - because that’s what we are talking about - what ifs, people are moved and their seats aren’t taken up by ttheth Superfans? And before you guarantee that won’t be the case, refresh your memory to the BLUT singing section. There was a clamour for this, Ricky put in a lot of time and effort and was badly let down ( l see history is being rewritten on this thread by suggesting it was the mockery that finished it of rather than people not being bothered even after loudly lauding the idea)

As an aside, where did all those non ST singers go last Saturday? You know, the apparent life blood of the support?

Maybe the current generation just aren’t as good at creating an atmosphere? When there is one is it you etc raising your game or the old farts joining in? G&H blocks don’t do bad with an older age group. Maybe those on the Kop are lacking a bit. Maybe the Charlie around isn’t as good as at away games?

They don't need "moving" as such. My suggestion was to allow everyone to buy whatever seats they want with instruction to use common sense, more loud & rowdy you want your surroundings the closer to the back you pick. Then people 20 rows from the back can stand up & tell anyone behind them to F*ck off, should have picked a more suitable spot without having to feel guilty. Which lots currently do.

One thing is for sure if these "G+H blocks" on the South are as good as you say the noise doesn't travel far. I hear them from my seat about once a month

 

[sheepbridge]

'Some fans will be moved from their seats' (Palace).

Imagine it at Lane? They'd be like some just stop oil protestors chaining themselves to the steel frames. "I'VE SAT HERE FOR 25 YEARS YOU SAVAGES!!!"

Nobody says it needs to be overnight. Why not give 2 year notice?

"In 2 years the club will be allocating this many rows and this many seats on this particular stand to create a purpose-made singing section. We understand some fans will be upset but they do not have to move and won't be forced to. Just be aware that the area will be designated as a singing zone or a noise zone (whatever other term someone might want to put in here)."

If someone has been sat in the same spot since the seat was bolted in good for them. Nobody is asking them to shift. I just don't understand why some people are so absolutely against it.

Except the whole point is someone is asking them to shift, to less desirable areas of the ground because as has been stated they are deemed less worthy than fans who want to create an atmosphere in that location.

What happens if everyone who currently has a seat there decides they don't want to move and are quite happy with a decent view at the back of the Kop slap bang in the centre?

Nobody is against a singing section and it's daft to suggest anyone is, I think the thing that people find a bit galling is the assertion that it has to be in a certain location and everyone not prepared to join in should move.

Plus this doesn't stop the fundamental issue of the over crowding in rows. Presumably these will be mainly sold to season tickets so where do those who buy match day tickets who want to sing with their mates go, to the seat they have purchased or with their mates in the singing section? I think we know the answer.

If rows are left only for match day purchases how do you stop 'non' singers buying them, so causing more arguments as people accuse others of being in the wrong section and they should move to let their mate stand there instead?

If we're serious about a singing section without the issues of over crowding then an area needs to be found that doesn't have many season tickets and can accommodate the required numbers, including those who buy match day tickets but want to be in the singing section so that they can purchase tickets there. Unfortunately such an area might not be in such an ideal location as the back and centre of the Kop, but the location shouldn't matter as long as plenty of noise and atmosphere can be generated by everyone who wants to be there.

 

[Sean Thornton]

They don't need "moving" as such. My suggestion was to allow everyone to buy whatever seats they want with instruction to use common sense, more loud & rowdy you want your surroundings the closer to the back you pick. Then people 20 rows from the back can stand up & tell anyone behind them to F*ck off, should have picked a more suitable spot without having to feel guilty. Which lots currently do.

One thing is for sure if these "G+H blocks" on the South are as good as you say the noise doesn't travel far. I've hear them from my seat about once a month

Not allowing someone to renew the seat they could have had for years is effectively moving them.

Surely you can’t hear them because you’re singing and being loud and rowdy yourself for the entirety of the game?

 

[bartman]

'

Nobody says it needs to be overnight. Why not give 2 year notice?

"In 2 years the club will be allocating this many rows and this many seats on this particular stand to create a purpose-made singing section. We understand some fans will be upset but they do not have to move and won't be forced to. Just be aware that the area will be designated as a singing zone or a noise zone (whatever other term someone might want to put in here)."

This is the compromise for me. We cannot tell fans that there will be permanent standing but we could phrase it in a way that could imply this which your phrase would suggest and advise that they longer period of standing that will be tolerated( provided supporters stay in their allocated area.) You could phrase it say that some supporters may have difficulty seeing that game in the signing section area and fans may be on their feet more often than elsewhere in the ground

You could limit to 500 fans initially and allocate the back middle of the Kop and see how it goes....even trial rail seating in that area.

 

[FB98]

Not allowing someone to renew the seat they could have had for years is effectively moving them.

Surely you can’t hear them because you’re singing and being loud and rowdy yourself for the entirety of the game?

Haha whats the point with you. Nobody including me would automatically get our seats & last sentence isn't worth engaging with

 

[bartman]

Not allowing someone to renew the seat they could have had for years is effectively moving them.

Surely you can’t hear them because you’re singing and being loud and rowdy yourself for the entirety of the game?

The only way this would be resolved is a new Kop stand (with rail seating) and everyone starts afresh and choses new seats( obviously we cannot afford this option)

or we allocate the BLLT for this purpose, reduce the away allocation and place the away fans in the top corner of the BLUT near the old Enterprise Centre

 

[sheepbridge]

You could limit to 500 fans initially and allocate the back middle of the Kop and see how it goes....even trial rail seating in that area.

Problem is, as we have learnt from this thread, some fans have difficulty counting and reading letters on gangways and don't want to ask for help.
In order to stop the over crowding of rows you'd have to heavily police / steward the area to ensure only people with tickets for that area enter every time, which would go down like a lead balloon. Rail seating is a possible solution but it would have the same fundamental issue of how to ensure there aren't more people in that area than there should be.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

This is the compromise for me. We cannot tell fans that there will be permanent standing but we could phrase it in a way that could imply this which your phrase would suggest and advise that they longer period of standing that will be tolerated( provided supporters stay in their allocated area.) You could phrase it say that some supporters may have difficulty seeing that game in the signing section area and fans may be on their feet more often than elsewhere in the ground

You could limit to 500 fans initially and allocate the back middle of the Kop and see how it goes....even trial rail seating in that area.

Permanent standing isn't the issue the council or safety people have. It's the gangways and people being in seats they shouldn't be in causing a 2-1 ratio (or for the particular people out there who have to be precise 'more than 1 per seat'). The idea of a section of a stand or an area or a block or a number of seats and rows doesn't mean people are put out of place. At all. It just means that around them in the seats that aren't already occupied by season ticket holders would be people that are there because they want to make more of a racket and sing more persistently. How people are against the idea of fans getting together to create an atmosphere before any arguments about kicking people out of their seats (which doesn't have to happen anyway) is a bit odd.

 

[sheepbridge]

The only way this would be resolved is a new Kop stand (with rail seating) and everyone starts afresh and choses new seats( obviously we cannot afford this option)

or we allocate the BLLT for this purpose, reduce the away allocation and place the away fans in the top corner of the BLUT near the old Enterprise Centre

I think until we can redevelop the Kop with rail seating the suggestion of having a dedicated area that can be tightly controlled is the best solution and is a good one. If we could find somewhere that could be cordoned off and maybe have access via specific turnstiles so exact numbers can be counted and only those with the correct tickets are allowed in would work. If you can't buy a ticket for the section because it's sold out, then unlucky but unlike now you can't squeeze in with your mates because you won't have entry. The BLLT might just be an option.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Haha whats the point with you. Nobody including me would automatically get our seats & last sentence isn't worth engaging with

Similar daft logic - but deliberate - to you but without the all encompassing superior “l have the solution” nonsense.

For all your claims, including about other grounds, the only meat on those bones is your opinion. Save for the obvious to everyone that the atmosphere has been poor, that’s remarkably fact free.

BTW

“How do you propose the section expands without moving people sitting down 8 rows from the back then mate?”

 

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

Except the whole point is someone is asking them to shift, to less desirable areas of the ground because as has been stated they are deemed less worthy than fans who want to create an atmosphere in that location.

What happens if everyone who currently has a seat there decides they don't want to move and are quite happy with a decent view at the back of the Kop slap bang in the centre?

Nobody is against a singing section and it's daft to suggest anyone is, I think the thing that people find a bit galling is the assertion that it has to be in a certain location and everyone not prepared to join in should move.

Plus this doesn't stop the fundamental issue of the over crowding in rows. Presumably these will be mainly sold to season tickets so where do those who buy match day tickets who want to sing with their mates go, to the seat they have purchased or with their mates in the singing section? I think we know the answer.

If rows are left only for match day purchases how do you stop 'non' singers buying them, so causing more arguments as people accuse others of being in the wrong section and they should move to let their mate stand there instead?

If we're serious about a singing section without the issues of over crowding then an area needs to be found that doesn't have many season tickets and can accommodate the required numbers, including those who buy match day tickets but want to be in the singing section so that they can purchase tickets there. Unfortunately such an area might not be in such an ideal location as the back and centre of the Kop, but the location shouldn't matter as long as plenty of noise and atmosphere can be generated by everyone who wants to be there.

Aye,
But our singer does want to sit /stand in a shit area even though it’s relatively unpopulated - ie the currently embargoed ‘pay on the day’ areas towards the front adjacent to the South Stand.
(S)He & his / her ilk MUST be accommodated rear / centre otherwise their effectiveness will be fatally impeded (apparently)

All for compromise as long as it’s someone else doing the compromising

 

[Sean Thornton]

The only way this would be resolved is a new Kop stand (with rail seating) and everyone starts afresh and choses new seats( obviously we cannot afford this option)

or we allocate the BLLT for this purpose, reduce the away allocation and place the away fans in the top corner of the BLUT near the old Enterprise Centre

That really is the solution. Moving people because of a major restructure isn’t the same as someone eyeing your seat jealously.

With BLUT we’ve already seen a reluctance to relocate.

 

[jim2007]

The only way is for a club official to take note of each seat that is empty. then check the list to see whose,s seat it is. then send them a letter.
Givin a polite reminder of what the consequences are. just a view from another angle.

Genuinely good idea.

The club knows which ticket has passed a turnstile. Note the empty seats. Cross match those to tickets that have passed the turnstile, ergo, you’re not in your allocated seat. Gentle reminder now, threat of escalating sanctions in future.

I hope the club have this in hand. Just the sort of thing to appease SAG and SGSA.

 

[Tom Bott]

i am in the back row and stand on my seat.

You standing at your seat doesn't seem to be the problem.

Standing at your seat is different to standing on your seat.

Ask Health and Safety if standing on a seat (plastic) is deemed without risk, especially at a sporting event with possible wild celebrations going on.

Though not in the second half against Huddersfield.

The atmosphere was poor because of the above, and the freezing temp in my opinion. Sometimes the ref can whip up the atmosphere with contentious decisions but even that didn't happen.

I sit in the middle of the Kop behind the goal, there were a fair few empty seats near us, I assume some had relocated to the BLUT and some were put off with the cold, it will be interesting to see next game.

 

[Tom Bott]

Note the empty seats. Cross match those to tickets that have passed the turnstile, ergo, you’re not in your allocated seat.

Unless the seat holder has gone for a piss/pint/pie/charlie, when the seat allocation check takes place.

Or just uses the above as an escape clause when the club sends a letter.

I think electronic tagging of everyone on the Kop is the only way forward, then the club can produce a heat map for each individual showing whether or not he/she/other has been contravening the rules.

 

[Tom Bott]

We are one of the only big clubs without a big standing atmospheric section.

There were at least five rows standing in the middle of the cop - yet everyone said the atmosphere was flat.

Though not as flat as the second half performance.

 

[Champagneblade]

Why not take the John Street corner stand which adjoins the Kop and John Street and make that rail seating?

It holds just 900 and being enclosed on both sides shouldn't that allow for good acoustics?

Plenty to have as an initial singing section and it isn't insisting on taking the prime view of someone who has been on the Kop for years. It's a relatively new stand so you shouldn't run into people who don't want to move because they've been there years.

You sell to a certain demographic and market it as the singing stand and if any
notes are off key or not hitting the prerequisite volume there'll be a short electric shock administered to the bottom of the seat.

Win win

 

[FB98]

I think a small official "singing section" would end up being cringey & end up having a small impact where as a total reset of the KOP would get the place rocking but no point going over it again.

 

[FB98]

There were at least five rows standing in the middle of the cop - yet everyone said the atmosphere was flat.

Though not as flat as the second half performance.

Not sure what point you're ment to be making? 5 rows? As usual those at the back were making MORE noise than everyone else. There just isn't enough of us.

 

[Isar]

I thought the standing area at Cardiff away this season is just the thing we need across the whole rear part of the Kop.
Preferably done as part of a full redevelopment of the home end.

 

[raul]

I think a small official "singing section" would end up being cringey & end up having a small impact where as a total reset of the KOP would get the place rocking but no point going over it again.

Did I just dream it or did we have one on the Kop about 10 years ago. Loads of youth were allocated a patch and spent one game doing that song Palace do.

Never seen again.

 

[Moan? Nope-I saw Longhorn]

I think a small official "singing section" would end up being cringey & end up having a small impact where as a total reset of the KOP would get the place rocking but no point going over it again.

Not sure what point you're ment to be making? 5 rows? As usual those at the back were making MORE noise than everyone else. There just isn't enough of us.

Spot the contradiction ?

 

[FB98]

Spot the contradiction ?

I don't see one

 

[Isar]

Did I just dream it or did we have one on the Kop about 10 years ago. Loads of youth were allocated a patch and spent one game doing that song Palace do.

Never seen again.

Rear of block A and B for a while.