email from club - NO MORE TICKETS ON SALE IN KOP - standing & wrong seat usage

[Sean Thornton]

But even the longer term solutions; ie a new Kop, when suggested, is shot down.

There’s quite evidently a need for change and accepting the status quo, will only see us stagnate and go backwards.

Whilst the larger capital expenditure projects are out of the question for now, there’s still scope to be creative and engage better with fans to manage expectations and the issue better, at very little cost.

“But even the longer term solutions; ie a new Kop, when suggested, is shot down.”

Pointing out that we currently do not have the funds to do it is hardly shooting anything down. Looking at this thread, it’s one of the few actual facts posted.

 

[FB98]

I REALLY don't think this is, or has ever been, about "just" standing. Lots of people seem to be thinking that is the main problem. I think the club mentioned that in the statement because that is the "regulation."

I think it's FAR more about the problem of people moving to stand in seats that aren't theirs, or obstructing the gangways. It's a nightmare to get out at the back of the kop sometimes...people are 4 or 5 deep at the top of the stairs for 90 mins.

For better or worse, we don't have an "official" standing section. Personally I've been stood for the last 10 years or so, purely cos I'm in the middle of the crowd and those in front of me stand. I've got no objection to it at all. What I do object to are those who move from where their actual ticket is, force 10 people into 5 seats, obstruct the gangways, and then launch themselves into the back of you when we score, just because they want a "LIMBS" video for instagram.

Over the 20+ years that I've been up the back of the kop, we have had some ridiculous moments of insane celebration. Remember back to Nuddy bundling home against Leeds in 2002, or Brown's volley against the pigs, or Nade against Arsenal etc etc. For all of those games, people were stood at the back of the kop. It was fine. It was raucous, and at times utterly insane, but it was the norm. Through all of that, we never had anything like what the club said yesterday. And through all of that, it was the same faces around us every week.

Now it seems to be different people cramming themselves into the space each match, and then treating the kop like it's a mosh pit at a Slayer gig every time we score. The crowd has changed, so the way they behave has changed.

I hate the thought of the kop being closed, but if it is, it won't be because people at the back stand up. If it was because of that, it would have happened 20 years ago. It will be because people (and it is, sadly, overwhelmingly a certain demographic) are apparently incapable of sitting (or standing) in the seat on their ticket.

I agree with you but until someone provides these people with enough space to buy their own ticket in a section that stands up the problem will persist. The idea that they will one day just go and sit down at the front is seriously unrealistic

 

[west_yorks_blade]

May have even contributed to it?

For clarity, at that very match I stood with my daughter, back row of the Kop, outside of my designated seats, in a well out.

So I’m not against it. She’s under 5’7 though, so I should’ve made her move

And given those small kidneys a good work out. How loud can she shout?

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Ok - well even if that is the case, you'd think that the wise and safety in all things related to football focussed members of SAG would pop over to the Rust Bucket and confirm what we all know - that those pigs do exactly the fucking same.

You would. And if they don't, it would suggest some sort of bias.

 

[Rodley]

I see. So the Swedish fans standing up didn't require anything of note being made to the club then?

What is the specific issue? Is it standing? Or is standing in the wrong seat?

It’s those philanderers who don the famous crimson et blanc!

 

[noire]

Ok - well even if that is the case, you'd think that the wise and safety in all things related to football focussed members of SAG would pop over to the Rust Bucket and confirm what we all know - that those pigs do exactly the fucking same.

The exits and entrance to their Kop aren’t at the very back of the stand though. (At least not all of them anyway).

In fairness to SCC/SAG/Whomever, they have condemned great swathes of the Rust-Bowl. So while I do believe the powers that be don’t like our club it is disingenuous to suggest The Pigs get away with everything.

While it would seem the club have rolled over straight away, I don’t really think they have much choice. If they want to start a battle with the licensing authorities the sad fact is the Kop is so horrendously outdated that I believe there would be, given enough time and motive, plenty enough faults to have the stand closed in it’s entirety, permanently. An outcome I’m sure the club will do anything to avoid since it contains nearly a third of the entire capacity of the ground.

The stand as it is now would never be able to open as a new build. The club benefits from its licence being grandfathered in. But a 150 year old dirt mound with some seats bolted on is not sufficient in the long term to hold a crowd of 10,000 people within current and future regulations and legislation.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

May have even contributed to it?

For clarity, at that very match I stood with my daughter, back row of the Kop, outside of my designated seats, in a sell out

So I’m not against it. She’s under 5’7 though, so I should’ve made her move

Oh, so it's YOU that has cause this ruckus? Nice one!

 

[S64 Blade]

But when, stripping the grey areas out of it, the issue is essentially that we are being made to crack down on people ignoring ground regulations and conditions of sale

Yes and the reason it’s being ignored because there’s a desire to stand, with no option to do so. The club have so far been unwilling to commit, or communicate anything about safe standing, despite there clearly being a demand for it.

They’ve then communicated nothing about the issue with people standing in the wrong seats and prospect of the Kop match day tickets being halted, should these problems continue.

Explaining and being open in communicating these points with fans would have helped. Instead, it’s been radio silence until it’s too late.

 

[Deadbat]

Again. On what basis are you suggesting nothing has been done? You may be correct of course but it’s the apparent certainty of your claim, alongside the better owner jibe. Without knowing the timeline, particularly if legal action has been undertaken , l can’t see it being as clear cut as you seem to think.

This is an SCC initiative - whatever the real reason - that has been passed on to the fan base with little information as to anything ongoing.

While l do understand the desire for a standing section to increase atmosphere, l find what appears to be a fuck it, l’ll do what l want stance quite disturbing. Any closure will be down to the perpetrators, not the club. As things stand. Can people really want that to happen?

I agree on some of the points regarding fans and seeing many on social media saying exactly what you describe ('f**k it, Ill stand where I want and when I want!').

This is esentially part of, if not the problem. I've stopped going to many away games due to a bigger than small minority behaviour which has been quite frankly embarrassing and is essentially what's happening at the back of the Kop but as you are in a smaller section it's harder to get away from it.

The reality is fans are overcrowding an area and standing at the back. SCC have warned us. Nothing has changed so now they are effectively having to step in.

Going back to my original point over what has been done, the club allude to signage and extra stewarding etc but the reality is whatever they have done appears to be minimal. I have family who sit half way up the Kop to the side and they say other than a few checks there is been no officials from the club up there or any tickets checked during games nor anyone moved from the overcrowed area.

If you have evidence that the club has done more to stop it then what is it? The fact we have no idea lies the problem. The club has not communicated with fans over how serious this is getting and now people can't go on the Kop. It's a big jump from a few stewards checking tickets don't you think? If more has been done then why hasn't they club told us or why don't we know?

Ultimately its the clubs job to manage match day operations. They will have been told about this by SCC several times that it is an issue. Yet they gave failed to address it by whatever measures (again noone knows) they have put in or not put it. I think it's too simplistic to just say as a club 'Well we told you what would happen now we have to shut this section or the whole Kop.'

The club should be actively trying to prevent this issue and there should be officials, stewards and police all over the areas on question. Fans might not like it but the only way it will stop it.

Granted if fans don't do it then it's not an issue but they have and are going to continue as many have said. United need to act. Maybe they have by stopping sales but not sure that will solve anything?

The reality is that safe standing and a new Kop is years away. The only way this problem will be resolved if SCC deem it such us by the club dealing with the fans who are congregating in the wrong area. How they do that is down to them and is the club's job. A pro active business and board I believe would not have let it get to this without doing more. If they have done more then tell us as it does not seem apparent to me?

 

[S64 Blade]

I don't think people are shooting down the idea of a new Kop. I don't know anyone who doesn't want a new Kop. All I see is people being realistic about the chances of that happening.

Same with safe standing. I haven't seen anyone say it's a bad idea but with the caveat that the club has to adhere to the guidelines before this becomes a possibility. You can't just stamp your feet and petulantly demand it in a matter of months.

And as for "allowing" a standing area in the ground as it is - unfortunately, it's against the law. A blind eye has been turned to a point but it's clearly passed that point. If you want to rail against the injustices of that, then get lobbying Government.

I've also seen a lot of conjecture taken as fact about who complained (local councillors, MPs, sitting down fans etc). It might just as well be a comment from the Police or Paramedics on scene who have raised issues about access? The bodies that sit on the Safety Advisory Group attend every game. Yes, they are watching us. Because they are always watching us.

There was a guy on here a few weeks ago saying that people were being “self entitled” by wanting better toilet facilities, so I’m not sure he was onboard with a new Kop.

 

[Torrix1889]

Sheffield Council wouldn't persecute the pigs in this way ...... always been a biased set of communist scumbags
UTB & FTP

Looking at their crowd v Bristol Rovers last night i think the council have already shut half their ground.

 

[S64 Blade]

“But even the longer term solutions; ie a new Kop, when suggested, is shot down.”

Pointing out that we currently do not have the funds to do it is hardly shooting anything down. Looking at this thread, it’s one of the few actual facts posted.

Longer term, Sean.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I agree on some of the points regarding fans and seeing many on social media saying exactly what you describe ('f**k it, Ill stand where I want and when I want!').

This is esentially part of, if not the problem. I've stopped going to many away games due to a bigger than small minority behaviour which has been quite frankly embarrassing and is essentially what's happening at the back of the Kop but as you are in a smaller section it's harder to get away from it.

The reality is fans are overcrowding an area and standing at the back. SCC have warned us. Nothing has changed so now they are effectively having to step in.

Going back to my original point over what has been done, the club allude to signage and extra stewarding etc but the reality is whatever they have done appears to be minimal. I have family who sit half way up the Kop to the side and they say other than a few checks there is been no officials from the club up there or any tickets checked during games nor anyone moved from the overcrowed area.

If you have evidence that the club has done more to stop it then what is it? The fact we have no idea lies the problem. The club has not communicated with fans over how serious this is getting and now people can't go on the Kop. It's a big jump from a few stewards checking tickets don't you think? If more has been done then why hasn't they club told us or why don't we know?

Ultimately its the clubs job to manage match day operations. They will have been told about this by SCC several times that it is an issue. Yet they gave failed to address it by whatever measures (again noone knows) they have put in or not put it. I think it's too simplistic to just say as a club 'Well we told you what would happen now we have to shut this section or the whole Kop.'

The club should be actively trying to prevent this issue and there should be officials, stewards and police all over the areas on question. Fans might not like it but the only way it will stop it.

Granted if fans don't do it then it's not an issue but they have and are going to continue as many have said. United need to act. Maybe they have by stopping sales but not sure that will solve anything?

The reality is that safe standing and a new Kop is years away. The only way this problem will be resolved if SCC deem it such us by the club dealing with the fans who are congregating in the wrong area. How they do that is down to them and is the club's job. A pro active business and board I believe would not have let it get to this without doing more. If they have done more then tell us as it does not seem apparent to me?

I thought you were referring to a lack of legal action. Can’t disagree with any of the above.

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

If "persistent standing" is an issue, this should be country wide. Anfield is my favourite example of it. Margaret Aspinall, as much as I admire her intentions, was totally against safe standing coming in and I can kind of see her point. But there was a photo of her stood on the kop. She's a hypocrite. Why isn't Anfield faced with these similar threats? Elland Road? All away fans? The back rows of the kop? Come off it. SAG ought to take themselves on a nationwide tour and shake themselves.

Seems like an easy target as as a kop, we're quite well behaved in a sitting down perspective. Especially compared to many other clubs.

 

[Champagneblade]

There isn't enough space for people who want to stand
There are more than enough empty seats for people who want to sit down.
(Ment to quote metalblade )

Why is it relevant that you want to stand?

It’s an all-seater stadium. You are not supposed to stand.

Why should the club risk losing sizeable revenue because they’ve been told that you can’t continue infringing the regulations?

I have zero sympathy with a 5"7 women who chose the back or the KOP not being able to see? Isn't it blindingly obvious the back of the KOP isn't an area for a partially disabled women with 10 & 12 year old kids?
Where as it IS the blindingly obvious area for young lads wanting to stand and make an atmosphere.
You want to sit down pick one of the other 33000 seats in the ground. Really simple stuff.

Re-read what you are typing and look at it from the Club’s point of view going forward.

You have no sympathy with a woman, someone’s Mum, Grandmother, who wants to sit in her allocated seat and watch the match from a high vantage point.

Reason is that you think priority should be given to those that want to break the rules of the stadium and stand. Standing as a fixed position isn’t allowed in the stadium. We’re not talking getting up when a goal incident occurs. We’re talking about standing the whole game.

She has the right to sit and watch the game. Those that want to stand don’t have the right to stand. In the wise words of Brian Potter “I wanna moonwalk son, but life’s a shithouse!”

Standing might be their preference. It might be how you’d like it to be. It might be something that has been tolerated. But at no point has it been in the rules, no matter how hard that is to accept. That’s not me being harsh. It’s me stating the rules as they are right now. Key being right now.

Now from the club’s point of view the chickens have come home to roost.

The club have effectively been told that they can’t turn a blind eye anymore. The rules have to be enforced or there will be further repercussions.

So there are two avenues this goes down:

1. Fans amend their behaviour and start to sit down. If they care for the club and show some foresight they will see this is the only way.
2. Restrictions get lifted due to this improvement.
3. Fan groups meanwhile engage the club and a progressive plan is put in place to build a safe standing area, possibly starting from the back of the Kop.

Or:
1. Fans refuse to take the notice seriously and to follow the rules.
2. The restrictions on the Kop will become more strict and will lead to certain areas being netted over.
3. If the problem persists it may lead to some or all closure of the stand.
4. The net result will be financial loss to the club we all love. The club will have less money.
5. With less money, and fans who will not be seen to do their part, the appetite and finance for safe standing will not gain enough collaboration.

To put it very simple - you get more flies with honey than vinegar

 

[ForgeBlade]

I agree with you but until someone provides these people with enough space to buy their own ticket in a section that stands up the problem will persist. The idea that they will one day just go and sit down at the front is seriously unrealistic

Agreed. Sadly that means, that until/if such a section is provided, the club has had to take other measures. I seriously doubt that a lot of the people I mentioned are ST holders, as I said, the faces change every week. It's a shitty situation, but if stopping sales of individual tickets to people who do this (hopefully not for too long) improves the match experience for those of us who have forked out north of £350 for a season ticket, to guarantee our seat every game, then maybe, sadly, that's all they can do

 

[jim2007]

I haven't been on the kop in 30 years, so haven't much to add. However I have worked in risk management extensively.

My interpretation of the club's (terribly written) communication is that they are hoping to get to a position whereby if there are 30 seats on a row, there are 30 people on that row. That's the least worst legally defendable position they could get to and what I infer they hope to get to. They know, we know, SAG knows, SSGA knows, that it is a forlorn hope to get people to sit down. Simply having the right number of people in the right number of places and clear gangways is what they want. I'm sure of it. And to any impartial observer, ie a judge, it should be achievable.

They know they have, based on some of the admissions on here, upwards of 3 people in a space designed, engineered and certificated as holding one. All the responsible authorities club, SCC and SSGA know that if some one gets badly injured in these circumstances the courts will have no patience whatsoever with a 'nothing we could do' defence.

 

[Foxy]

Yes and the reason it’s being ignored because there’s a desire to stand, with no option to do so. The club have so far been unwilling to commit, or communicate anything about safe standing, despite there clearly being a demand for it.

They’ve then communicated nothing about the issue with people standing in the wrong seats and prospect of the Kop match day tickets being halted, should these problems continue.

Explaining and being open in communicating these points with fans would have helped. Instead, it’s been radio silence until it’s too late.

The club have been asked about safe standing every single year for years, it’s not a new thing on the radar, just had more press and focus again due to trials… I doubt they are ever going to make a definitive statement without a firm and proper confirmed plan being in place re: development and we know that’s firmly on the back burner due to our current position.

Them coming out and saying we’d love to but we need more money, somewhere to move people and to meet all the conditions of licence/usage as well as league and cup competition approval isn’t going to fix that people are standing in gangways. Them coming out and saying it’s off the table due to safety advisory etc isn’t going to help the current situation either.

Might make a few more people understand/realise, but I doubt they are the ones currently the “problem”.

Whilst I’ve actively been involved in telling the club how they should/could improve communications over the years (not suggesting they always listened ) and agree it’s far from always the best, I doubt those stood in the gangways are currently shocked that it turns out they shouldn’t have been.

Saw plenty of conjecture about the Sharp flag being gone, did no one notice the sign they put up or the ticket checks/change to stewarding?

Should they have done more? No idea, as I’m not in the effected area to tell what might have worked.

I’ve already seen all over plenty of response along the lines of “fuck them, we’ll do what we want”.

Needs some creative thinking and a compromise for those who want what they can’t have.

 

[west_yorks_blade]

From what I have observed, for many of those standing in the gangways / exits at the back of the Kop, its less about creating a good atmosphere, and more about personal convenience - getting in late, going to the toilet, going for a beer, getting away early - without the hassle of walking all the way down to your own actual seat and shuffling past people each time.

 

[FB98]

Why is it relevant that you want to stand?

It’s an all-seater stadium. You are not supposed to stand.

Why should the club risk losing sizeable revenue because they’ve been told that you can’t continue infringing the regulations?

Re-read what you are typing and look at it from the Club’s point of view going forward.

You have no sympathy with a woman, someone’s Mum, Grandmother, who wants to sit in her allocated seat and watch the match from a high vantage point.

Reason is that you think priority should be given to those that want to break the rules of the stadium and stand. Standing as a fixed position isn’t allowed in the stadium. We’re not talking getting up when a goal incident occurs. We’re talking about standing the whole game.

She has the right to sit and watch the game. Those that want to stand don’t have the right to stand. In the wise words of Brian Potter “I wanna moonwalk son, but life’s a shithouse!”

Standing might be their preference. It might be how you’d like it to be. It might be something that has been tolerated. But at no point has it been in the rules, no matter how hard that is to accept. That’s not me being harsh. It’s me stating the rules as they are right now. Key being right now.

Now from the club’s point of view the chickens have come home to roost.

The club have effectively been told that they can’t turn a blind eye anymore. The rules have to be enforced or there will be further repercussions.

So there are two avenues this goes down:

1. Fans amend their behaviour and start to sit down. If they care for the club and show some foresight they will see this is the only way.
2. Restrictions get lifted due to this improvement.
3. Fan groups meanwhile engage the club and a progressive plan is put in place to build a safe standing area, possibly starting from the back of the Kop.

Or:
1. Fans refuse to take the notice seriously and to follow the rules.
2. The restrictions on the Kop will become more strict and will lead to certain areas being netted over.
3. If the problem persists it may lead to some or all closure of the stand.
4. The net result will be financial loss to the club we all love. The club will have less money.
5. With less money, and fans who will not be seen to do their part, the appetite and finance for safe standing will not gain enough collaboration.

To put it very simple - you get more flies with honey than vinegar

Because standing happens at every single ground in the country. I have never in my life seen a Blades away end sat down.
I don't think anyone cares about people standing up, I think they need to stop overcrowding and the solution to that is a bigger area for the people who do want to stand, currently restricted to a section far too small for their number.
It's relevant that people want to stand because the people that do are almost the only people that generate regular atmosphere in the ground. Heckingbottom has regularly stated he considers this very important to the team, so accommodating these people is important to the football alongside those fans themselves.

 

[alcoblade]

From what I have observed, for many of those standing in the gangways / exits at the back of the Kop, its less about creating a good atmosphere, and more about personal convenience - getting in late, going to the toilet, going for a beer, getting away early - without the hassle of walking all the way down to your own actual seat and shuffling past people each time.

Either way, those things seem to be directly correlated with creating an atmosphere, as that's where what little we have remaining comes from.

 

[Foxy]

Either way, those things seem to be directly correlated with creating an atmosphere, as that's where what little we have remaining comes from.

Perhaps we could petition to have Grant Hanley come and kick someone minutes before kickoff every week? Or one of the multiples we get every week feigning contact/assault?

In fact, what would some refereeing decisions replayed on the big screen cost us?

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Closing the kop for a time is given as one of the punishments. Not only does that affect income, it affects the entire dynamic of the matchday.

The kop IS the atmosphere and don't anyone kid themselves otherwise. I've sat on John Street and its embarrassing. I was told to sit down by somebody before I'd actually found my seat once. The noise comes from the kop. The encouragement comes from the kop. Close it and see what happens to the team. We saw it during covid.

If the club want fans to follow the rules (someone above says the stadium is all seater so we shouldnt get upset about this, ALL stadia are all seater in the top 2 divisions, so this message should be aimed at every club) then the club need to communicate this better. I'm guessing they've had prior warnings, so tell the fans that. If it's a 3 strikes and you're out kinda thing, why haven't we been told each time?


It's also akin to the wet paint analogy. Tell fans to sit down, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Flippity Gibbert]

my understanding is that safe standing will not be allowed unless the club prove that the ground is safe. So until everyone follows the rules, and stays at their own seats, the ground is not deemed safe and so they will not allow safe standing areas. I suppose it’s a case of be good boys and you get a lollipop, or get to stand up all game.

 

[Flippity Gibbert]

my understanding is that safe standing will not be allowed unless the club prove that the ground is safe. So until everyone follows the rules, and stays at their own seats, the ground is not deemed safe and so they will not allow safe standing areas. I suppose it’s a case of be good boys and you get a lollipop, or get to stand up all game

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

. I suppose it’s a case of be good boys and you get a lollipop, or get to stand up all game

By which point, most will have become accustomed to sitting down anyway leaving safe standing pointless.

 

[DaveBassettsgoneonholiday]

Perhaps we could petition to have Grant Hanley come and kick someone minutes before kickoff every week? Or one of the multiples we get every week feigning contact/assault?

In fact, what would some refereeing decisions replayed on the big screen cost us?

I was actually thinking about this after saturday. What's Megson up to these days. Maybe we can have him strolling up and down in front of the kop before each half, twirling a blue and white scarf round his head. That should do the trick.
It'll also alleviate any congestion/over crowding at the back of the kop as they'll all be down the front trying to brain him.

 

[Gimli]

Because standing happens at every single ground in the country. I have never in my life seen a Blades away end sat down.
I don't think anyone cares about people standing up, I think they need to stop overcrowding and the solution to that is a bigger area for the people who do want to stand, currently restricted to a section far too small for their number.
It's relevant that people want to stand because the people that do are almost the only people that generate regular atmosphere in the ground. Heckingbottom has regularly stated he considers this very important to the team, so accommodating these people is important to the football alongside those fans themselves.

Problem is, there is no section for standing. You’ve mentioned the area for people who want to stand being too restricted - but there is no defined area, as its an all seater stadium.

Until a time when safe standing happens at Bramall Lane, it’s tough titties to those who want to stand but can’t because someone else wants to sit down. As it is, the sitters are in the right.

 

[FB98]

Well it won't be 'tough titties' because i have little doubt the people that usually stand will be standing next week.

 

[S64 Blade]

The club have been asked about safe standing every single year for years, it’s not a new thing on the radar, just had more press and focus again due to trials… I doubt they are ever going to make a definitive statement without a firm and proper confirmed plan being in place re: development and we know that’s firmly on the back burner due to our current position.

Them coming out and saying we’d love to but we need more money, somewhere to move people and to meet all the conditions of licence/usage as well as league and cup competition approval isn’t going to fix that people are standing in gangways. Them coming out and saying it’s off the table due to safety advisory etc isn’t going to help the current situation either.

Might make a few more people understand/realise, but I doubt they are the ones currently the “problem”.

Whilst I’ve actively been involved in telling the club how they should/could improve communications over the years (not suggesting they always listened ) and agree it’s far from always the best, I doubt those stood in the gangways are currently shocked that it turns out they shouldn’t have been.

Saw plenty of conjecture about the Sharp flag being gone, did no one notice the sign they put up or the ticket checks/change to stewarding?

Should they have done more? No idea, as I’m not in the effected area to tell what might have worked.

I’ve already seen all over plenty of response along the lines of “fuck them, we’ll do what we want”.

Needs some creative thinking and a compromise for those who want what they can’t have.

Some fair points here Foxy. There does seem to be a bit of a black hole around fan comms. There’s so many channels of communication available nowadays that there shouldn’t be any excuse really. I hope they take note of your suggestions.