email from club - NO MORE TICKETS ON SALE IN KOP - standing & wrong seat usage

[noire]

The reason this is an issue at Bramall Lane and not all the other grounds mentioned is very simple. The entry and exit to the seating areas of the stand is at the very back it. Unlike any other stand in the ground which have vomitories (that is the correct word I’m sure) in the middle of the seating area that give access to the concourse.

If people stand with their mates and spill over and block the gangway at the back of the South Stand, just to use it as an example, they aren’t restricting access to an emergency exit. On the Kop they are. It isn’t really a sitting/standing issue.

Until the Kop is flattened and rebuilt (and there isn’t any reasonable argument against this really, it’s a temporary solution to the Taylor Report we have now lived with for 30 years) this will continue to be an issue.

We can blame SCC all we want, we can blame people who congregate at the back of the stand too. Neither are blameless. But neither are the club who continue to sell tickets in a stand that is clearly not fit for purpose. And have no intention of ever sorting it out.

 

[Dkc]

It's really simple, stick to your spot that your seat is allocated too, and this problem goes away.

There have been quite a few posts stating this. But in the real world it's not that simple at all.

In an ideal world fans will stick to their numbered seats. But realistically they won't, they will want to stand with their mates in the unofficial standing section, which isn't large enough to give a full seat to all those who wish to stand.

We can say 'it's simple - people should follow the rules' all day long' but it doesn't get us closer to solving the problem. It's like saying that the problem of teenagers speeding in their first car is easy to solve - they should 'just obey the speed limit'. Means nothing.

Our starting point should be the fact that there isn't a major problem. People have been standing at the top of the seated kop for 30-odd years and there hasn't been a single serious injury. Technically it breaches the rules, but so does smoking on the outdoor concourses or using bad language. It's not a big problem.

 

[Rodley]

There's more reading about the licencing for rail seating here: https://sgsa.org.uk/licensedstanding/

One of the requirements is

Management must demonstrate compliance with the SGSA’s Persistent Standing Enforcement Approach in the ground’s conventional seated areas.



But the discretion was the licencing authority's, not the clubs. They have now decided the matter has escalated to the extent that discretion has expired and action needs to be taken.

Then the club should have managed the “escalation” more adequately.

Pressure needs to be put on the Council if we’re genuinely being threatened with closure. Hillsborough has three areas where presumably the persistent standing approach is broken every week. Local Councillors ought to be getting some grief on this from our punters.

 

[bartman]

The reason this is an issue at Bramall Lane and not all the other grounds mentioned is very simple. The entry and exit to the seating areas of the stand is at the very back it. Unlike any other stand in the ground which have vomitories (that is the correct word I’m sure) in the middle of the seating area that give access to the concourse.

If people stand with their mates and spill over and block the gangway at the back of the South Stand, just to use it as an example, they aren’t restricting access to an emergency exit. On the Kop they are. It isn’t really a sitting/standing issue.

Until the Kop is flattened and rebuilt (and there isn’t any reasonable argument against this really, it’s a temporary solution to the Taylor Report we have now lived with for 30 years) this will continue to be an issue.

We can blame SCC all we want, we can blame people who congregate at the back of the stand too. Neither are blameless. But neither are the club who continue to sell tickets in a stand that is clearly not fit for purpose. And have no intention of ever sorting it out.

We have never had the funds to rebuild the KOP.

As you say, it will need to be flattened totally and rebuilt. To avoid a 10k reduction in capacity we will either need a 2nd tier on the South Stand with Exec boxes to generate income or we start building an upper tier behind the Kop ( plenty of land behind to do this) then knock the 'old' Kop down when finished to build the lower tier.

Cost ? I am not an expert but surely at least £50 mill

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

We found out who's the snake yet? McCabe, Bettis or Wilder?

 

[Rodley]

We have never had the funds to rebuild the KOP.

As you say, it will need to be flattened totally and rebuilt. To avoid a 10k reduction in capacity we will either need a 2nd tier on the South Stand with Exec boxes to generate income or we start building an upper tier behind the Kop ( plenty of land behind to do this) then knock the 'old' Kop down when finished to build the lower tier.

Cost ? I am not an expert but surely at least £50 mill

No point putting executive boxes on the Kop as you’d need to build all the facilities to serve them.

The expansion would be rail seating to the Kop and an extra tier on the South Stand with executive facilities there.

 

[S64 Blade]

We have never had the funds to rebuild the KOP.

As you say, it will need to be flattened totally and rebuilt. To avoid a 10k reduction in capacity we will either need a 2nd tier on the South Stand with Exec boxes to generate income or we start building an upper tier behind the Kop ( plenty of land behind to do this) then knock the 'old' Kop down when finished to build the lower tier.

Cost ? I am not an expert but surely at least £50 mill

Ironically this would now be the perfect time to do it, if we had the money.

I agree that flattening it is the best option. Anything else will just be outdated quickly. We’ll still have access issues, as until the mound is removed/dug into, we can have access lower down the stand (like they do on the Kop at Anfield, for example). So it’ll continue to be problematic if we just plonk some extra seats at the top, like those plans from 10 years, or so, ago.

 

[S64 Blade]

No point putting executive boxes on the Kop as you’d need to build all the facilities to serve them.

The expansion would be rail seating to the Kop and an extra tier on the South Stand with executive facilities there.

I think he means Exec on south.

 

[Foxy]

Then the club should have managed the “escalation” more adequately.

Regardless of it’s implementation, did we think signage, stewarding or ticket checks were just because they were bored and fancied dicking about?

Aren’t they now doing something before more serious sanctions are applied?

Not saying they’ve dealt with it the best they could have, but they are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Linz]

Pressure needs to be put on the Council if we’re genuinely being threatened with closure. Hillsborough has three areas where presumably the persistent standing approach is broken every week. Local Councillors ought to be getting some grief on this from our punters.

But is there overcrowding in these areas?

(Jokes about their three million fans aside.)

 

[Foxy]

Ironically this would now be the perfect time to do it, if we had the money.

I agree that flattening it is the best option. Anything else will just be outdated quickly. We’ll still have access issues, as until the mound is removed/dug into, we can have access lower down the stand (like they do on the Kop at Anfield, for example). So it’ll continue to be problematic if we just plonk some extra seats at the top, like those plans from 10 years, or so, ago.

Say we actually had the money, where does everyone that’d need to temporarily move go while they did it?

Ideal would have been during lower attendances/lockdown.

 

[Blades Glory Owls Down]

I'm sorry to say that this has been a long time coming.
Prior to me moving to Australia, I had a season ticket in the middle of the Kop and held the same seat since seating was introduced.
I would sit with my dad.
My Mum would sit at the back of the Kop in the aisle seat to allow her to get in and out easier (Mobility issues). Initially she sat with my younger sister and then more recently my 2 children (currently aged 10/12 so the eldest would have been about 5 when first attending) shared a season ticket and sat with her.
Most of the time there wasn't much of an issue with a handful of blokes/younger blokes standing in the gangway/aisle (not anywhere near their allocated seats). However, as time went on or there was a big game with a higher attendance, the group at the back got bigger and bigger. This led to neither my Mum nor my kids being able to see any of the game, even when my kids stood on their seat to try and see.
When I asked the group to move/have consideration for others I was told "Fuck Off!" or "try and make me move you cunt!"
The stewards at the time were asked to do something about it but I was told "can't do anything mate"
The one time that I did something about it, by standing in front of the group with my kid in my arms so that he could see and, in the process, blocking the view of some of the blokes that were stood in the gangway, causing them to get aggressive/threatening towards me, I was threatened with being ejected from the ground for causing a disturbance by the same stewards that "can't do anything about it mate".
As a result, my boys ended up sitting with me in the middle of the Kop and I was able to pick them up to see the action as others around were standing. My 6'3 Dad moved to the back and struggled to see over the crowd. My 5'7 mum still had no chance.
A lot of people have missed the point of the message sent out by the club. The issue isn't standing up, as we all do it with each attack, bad challenge, exciting bit of action. This is fine if you are in your allocated seat.
The issue is the ever-increasing numbers of blokes/young blokes who think that the back of the Kop is their own personal terrace with no regards for anyone inconvenienced by them. The corrupt SCC and the safety advisory group arent the problem. The "supporters" causing the issue in the first place are!

 

[Rodley]

Regardless of it’s implementation, did we think signage, stewarding or ticket checks were just because they were bored and fancied dicking about?

Aren’t they now doing something before more serious sanctions are applied?

Not saying they’ve dealt with it the best they could have, but they are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I think if we’ve managed to get ourselves in a situation where we’re losing thousands of pounds and at risk of losing millions of pounds of revenue, whatever measures we implemented were clearly inadequate to deal with what ostensibly seems to be a small, manageable issue.

 

[Carlton Blade]

The reason this is an issue at Bramall Lane and not all the other grounds mentioned is very simple. The entry and exit to the seating areas of the stand is at the very back it. Unlike any other stand in the ground which have vomitories (that is the correct word I’m sure) in the middle of the seating area that give access to the concourse.

If people stand with their mates and spill over and block the gangway at the back of the South Stand, just to use it as an example, they aren’t restricting access to an emergency exit. On the Kop they are. It isn’t really a sitting/standing issue.

Until the Kop is flattened and rebuilt (and there isn’t any reasonable argument against this really, it’s a temporary solution to the Taylor Report we have now lived with for 30 years) this will continue to be an issue.

We can blame SCC all we want, we can blame people who congregate at the back of the stand too. Neither are blameless. But neither are the club who continue to sell tickets in a stand that is clearly not fit for purpose. And have no intention of ever sorting it out.

Never thought about it like that

 

[Gimli]

This forum is prone to condescension, but this has been a particularly tough read.

We have a problem which isn't a problem in other stadia. It isn't caused by the existence of standing/singing youths. These people exist in other grounds without much issue.

That the solution most people offer is "just sit in your own fucking seat" is pathetic.

That is the solution.

It’s not hard to grasp that you get given an allocated seat for a match.

I’m pretty sure from reading this thread that 99% of people don’t have a problem with standing. In fact, most of the issue cited in the official comms related to overcrowding etc - ie. People standing in the wrong place.

You want safe standing? There’s no way that happens if people continue to stand wherever they want.

 

[Harry's Game]

The reason this is an issue at Bramall Lane and not all the other grounds mentioned is very simple. The entry and exit to the seating areas of the stand is at the very back it. Unlike any other stand in the ground which have vomitories (that is the correct word I’m sure) in the middle of the seating area that give access to the concourse.

If people stand with their mates and spill over and block the gangway at the back of the South Stand, just to use it as an example, they aren’t restricting access to an emergency exit. On the Kop they are. It isn’t really a sitting/standing issue.

Until the Kop is flattened and rebuilt (and there isn’t any reasonable argument against this really, it’s a temporary solution to the Taylor Report we have now lived with for 30 years) this will continue to be an issue.

We can blame SCC all we want, we can blame people who congregate at the back of the stand too. Neither are blameless. But neither are the club who continue to sell tickets in a stand that is clearly not fit for purpose. And have no intention of ever sorting it out.

At last someone gets it. I have been pointing this out for 30 years. The Kop stand was supposed to last 5-7 years at most, Reg Brearly said it himself at the time

 

[noire]

We have never had the funds to rebuild the KOP.

As you say, it will need to be flattened totally and rebuilt. To avoid a 10k reduction in capacity we will either need a 2nd tier on the South Stand with Exec boxes to generate income or we start building an upper tier behind the Kop ( plenty of land behind to do this) then knock the 'old' Kop down when finished to build the lower tier.

Cost ? I am not an expert but surely at least £50 mill

The money aspect is always, and has always been the excuse for everything at the club, forever.

When we want to, we can find money. This would be no different.

A new stand will be an investment and produce a return for 50/100+ years if done right. The current temporary solution has lasted 30 years, and I can’t see it being replaced in the next 20.

It would cut our capacity during building significantly. But we are already having our capacity cut with the existing stand!!

Diverging slightly. All the old great terraces across England have been knocked down and replaced. Anfield, Maine Road, Highbury, Villa Park etc. with the exception of two who have had some seats bolted on and a new tin roof.

Both happen to be in the same city. Which says a lot.

 

[Foxy]

ostensibly seems to be a small, manageable issue

Well so far, we’ve had the ideas of “let us do what we want”, “tell them to fuck off”, “change to safe standing” or kick loads of others out of their seats in other places people aren’t standing to create the problem…

So small and manageable might be pushing it.

The other thing they are trying has caused the outrage.

 

[bartman]

Say we actually had the money, where does everyone that’d need to temporarily move go while they did it?

Ideal would have been during lower attendances/lockdown.

Which is why i think a 2nd tier on the South Stand would have to be first to reduce the effect on match day income and to accommodate ST Holders from the KOP if re-development starts.

If only we had a rich benefactor

 

[S64 Blade]

Say we actually had the money, where does everyone that’d need to temporarily move go while they did it?

Ideal would have been during lower attendances/lockdown.

Well yeah, lockdown would have trumped this, but nobody knew it was going to happen and for how long. Lower attendances would just question the need for it in the first place.

In terms of moving folk, we’d have to allow season ticket holders to move to the BLUT, and relax the rules on JSS. Could potentially look to split BLLT (though a shared away/home end seems a no-go in South Yorks), if we could get some dispensation for a reduced away allocation. It would be incredibly tight if we had the same number of season ticket holders next season and I’m not sure how stringent rules are about having x% available for match day sale.

Depending on how any new stand would be constructed and timescales for this, there may well be an option for some type of temporary structure where the Kop is (think Gillingham )/in the corner by the South Stand.

Failing that, sell season tickets based on loyalty points until whatever capacity is reached.

 

[BushBlade]

But is there overcrowding in these areas?

(Jokes about their three million fans aside.)

I wouldn’t have thought so

If someone was really bored and wanted to stir it up, they could get a ticket and check. If there is overcrowding, they could then complain.

I remember when Charlton were having trouble getting the necessary consents to return to The Valley. The council seemed to be very obstructive. So a bunch of their fans threatened to stand for election as counsellors.

How the battle was won – Charlton Athletic FC, 25 years back at The Valley

Rick Everitt covered Charlton for The Mercury for nine years and was the paper’s sports editor from 1993-98. He is the author of the book Battle for The Valley and continues to edit Voice of The V…

londonnewsonline.co.uk

 

[Harry's Game]

The money aspect is always, and has always been the excuse for everything at the club, forever.

When we want to, we can find money. This would be no different.

A new stand will be an investment and produce a return for 50/100+ years if done right. The current temporary solution has lasted 30 years, and I can’t see it being replaced in the next 20.

It would cut our capacity during building significantly. But we are already having our capacity cut with the existing stand!!

Diverging slightly. All the old great terraces across England have been knocked down and replaced. Anfield, Maine Road, Highbury, Villa Park etc. with the exception of two who have had some seats bolted on and a new tin roof.

Both happen to be in the same city. Which says a lot.

The similarity between the two clubs on this remarkable, two excellent side stands at both grounds and two wretchedly refitted end stand.

 

[AWetFlannel]

That is the solution.

It’s not hard to grasp that you get given an allocated seat for a match.

I’m pretty sure from reading this thread that 99% of people don’t have a problem with standing. In fact, most of the issue cited in the official comms related to overcrowding etc - ie. People standing in the wrong place.

You want safe standing? There’s no way that happens if people continue to stand wherever they want.

So if we all just sit down in our allocated seat, we have a better chance of pressuring the club into introducing safe standing? Not sure how that works.

I'm fine with people saying that now, at this point, people should go to their allocated seat. This doesn't solve all our problems though, it has some negatives that people don't seem to want to accept.

 

[bartman]

The money aspect is always, and has always been the excuse for everything at the club, forever.

Where would the money come from ? The 4 grounds you mention have had benefactors and the benefit of regular Premier League income

You would cut capacity by a third by just knocking down the Kop and starting again. What happens to those ST Holders ? How do we replace match day income ?

Do we want the club to borrow the money ? We did this in the 70s for the South Stand and it crippled the club

Do we sell Bogle,Berge,RND,Egan, Illiman,Osulu,Anel etc so we can pay for the new stand ?

 

[Linz]

So if we all just sit down in our allocated seat, we have a better chance of pressuring the club into introducing safe standing? Not sure how that works.

It's a requirement of gaining a licence to operate safe standing.

 

[FB98]

I would argue that someone who has a season ticket for a seat is more entitled to be sat in that then multiple other fans who think it's in their singing / standing section and it doesn't matter if had for a week or 30 years.

Even if there is a safe standing and singing area, which I would fully support, it would still be limited by numbers. If there were 2000 such seats, 2000 tickets would be sold and only 2000 fans should be in that area. If there were many more fans in that area causing congestion, blocking gangways and exits we'd have exactly the same issue as we have now.

Can someone explain to me how rail seating is the solution to this problem.

You will still get the same dickheads trying to cram into the same areas they don't have tickets for.

The solution to the problem is an area, official rail seating or otherwise, big enough to fit everyone who wants to stand up. This has been said many times but everyone keeps ignoring it

 

[Linz]

The solution to the problem is an area, official rail seating or otherwise, big enough to fit everyone who wants to stand up. This has been said many times but everyone keeps ignoring it

No one is ignoring it, if you care to read the thread.

 

[AWetFlannel]

It's a requirement of gaining a licence to operate safe standing.

That's me told, fair enough

 

[Rodley]

But is there overcrowding in these areas?

(Jokes about their three million fans aside.)

Yes it has been on the North Stand. I recall they took on SAG when they tried to place a prohibition notice on them as they were selling more tickets than seats in the stand and sought to restrict use of an exit.

 

[Linz]

That's me told, fair enough

There's more info here: https://sgsa.org.uk/licensedstanding/

The Licensed standing criteria – October 2022 (PDF) gives you the hoops you have to jump through.