Ched ......... is this nearer the truth ?

[JJ Sefton]

...I've been immediately hounded by a pack of righteous liberals...

You get used to it.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I'd like to propose a little thought experiment.

You go for a night out with your mates and get absolutely smashed. You wake up naked in an hotel bedroom with no idea how you got there and no memory of the night. Your anus feels sore and, on examining it, you feel a sticky substance there. You get dressed and speak to the receptionist. He tells you came in a last night with a Mr Johnson and that he departed at 3am.

Would you just shrug it off and go home?

Who has ever said the victim should have just shrugged it off? The answer to your question is no i wouldn't.

 

[Balham]

You get used to it.

Somewhere, there is a tiny violin playing a sad solo just for you

 

[madeinsheffield]

I'd like to propose a little thought experiment.

You go for a night out with your mates and get absolutely smashed. You wake up naked in an hotel bedroom with no idea how you got there and no memory of the night. Your anus feels sore and, on examining it, you feel a sticky substance there. You get dressed and speak to the receptionist. He tells you came in a last night with a Mr Johnson and that he departed at 3am.

Would you just shrug it off and go home?

Or you love it shoved up aforementioned anus and you can't get enough, you have a really enjoyable session, possibly going a little further than you would normally, but hey good fun at the time.

A couple of days later when you realise you shouldn't have done some of things that seemed OK and after chatting to a few mates you decide to alter your thoughts and get on a rollercoaster of a legal system you can't get off, so you take advice and being told to 'forget any memory' is the best option given to you.

 

[Darren]

Who has ever said the victim should have just shrugged it off? The answer to your question is no i wouldn't.

It was more a question for those who sympathised with the thrust of the article that if the alleged rapist says "he/she consented" and the alleged victim can't remember anything then there can't have been a rape. I just wondered if those people would take the same view when the allegation was of one man raping another man.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Thought Experiment N02

You go for a night out with your mates and get absolutely smashed. You wake up naked in an hotel bedroom with no idea how you got there and no memory of the night. Your anus feels sore and, on the side table is a large strap on, and and opened bottle of lube. You get dressed and speak to the receptionist. He tells you came in a last night with a Ms Tasty, the local dominatrix and that she departed at 3am.

What would you do?

(Serious question by the way...)

 

[Darren]

Thought Experiment N02

You go for a night out with your mates and get absolutely smashed. You wake up naked in an hotel bedroom with no idea how you got there and no memory of the night. Your anus feels sore and, on the side table is a large strap on, and and opened bottle of lube. You get dressed and speak to the receptionist. He tells you came in a last night with a Ms Tasty, the local dominatrix and that she departed at 3am.

What would you do?

(Serious question by the way...)

Ask if he has her number

Its an interesting point though and I think the issue is all about power. If a woman feels she may have been sexually "violated" (for want of a better word) by a man or a man feels he has been violated by a man, she/he are likely to feel pretty upset about it. Probably because it brings up a sense of powerlessness. For a man to feel he has been violated by a woman doesn't bring up that same sense of powerlessness.

It's the same when we read about teachers having sex with adolescent pupils. If English Teacher, Mr Liberal, aged 28, has sex with Kylie aged 15, we think "you dirty paedo"; if Art teacher Ms Wet aged 28, has sex with Kyle aged 15, we think "phwooar, get in lad, wish I could have done that when I was 15 etc etc".

 

[JJ Sefton]

Somewhere, there is a tiny violin playing a sad solo just for you

Does it take requests?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Ask if he has her number

Its an interesting point though and I think the issue is all about power. If a woman feels she may have been sexually "violated" (for want of a better word) by a man or a man feels he has been violated by a man, she/he are likely to feel pretty upset about it. Probably because it brings up a sense of powerlessness. For a man to feel he has been violated by a woman doesn't bring up that same sense of powerlessness.

It's the same when we read about teachers having sex with adolescent pupils. If English Teacher, Mr Liberal, aged 28, has sex with Kylie aged 15, we think "you dirty paedo"; if Art teacher Ms Wet aged 28, has sex with Kyle aged 15, we think "phwooar, get in lad, wish I could have done that when I was 15 etc etc".

There's also the STD issue to consider.

The issue for me is sexual preference. If i'd woken up in a hotel room under your scenario then i'd be straight to the police, as there's no way in a million years that i would have sex with another man. In my scenario, then probably not, as it's (Kink alert! ) it's something i've experienced in the past with a partner anyway (The act of pegging, not the act of being raped by pegging..).

 

[Darren]

There's also the STD issue to consider.

The issue for me is sexual preference. If i'd woken up in a hotel room under your scenario then i'd be straight to the police, as there's no way in a million years that i would have sex with another man. In my scenario, then probably not, as it's (Kink alert! ) it's something i've experienced in the past with a partner anyway (The act of pegging, not the act of being raped by pegging..).

You can get an STD from a not very well cleaned strap on....

You sound nearly as kinky as me

 

[mattbianco1]

Except that no-one was out-voted. The verdict was unanimous.

As a fully paid up rightheous liberal and feminist sympathiser, I have to say that the article is hysterical nonsense (on a par with the wilder shores of feminist hysterical nonsense). Leaving aside the actual facts of Evans' case, does anyone really think that men should be freely able to have sex with women too drunk to know what is going on? That's what the article appears to be suggesting.

You seem to have changed your tune.

"This will get thrown out of court" i seem to remember you saying

 

[Darren]

You seem to have changed your tune.

"This will get thrown out of court" i seem to remember you saying

1. I never said that, I said I thought there was a good chance (on the evidnece as I understand it) it would be thrown out at half time.

2. Could you explain how the opinion I posted and which you quoted contradicts my view that, on the facts of the Evans' case, I thought it unlikely he would be found guilty?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

You sound nearly as kinky as me

We both know that's not true

Not something i'd be doing every week, but we both had good fun at the time. I'd have been a bit disturbed is she'd been demanded we do it all the the time anyway....

 

[Selly]

I'd like to propose a little thought experiment.

You go for a night out with your mates and get absolutely smashed. You wake up naked in an hotel bedroom with no idea how you got there and no memory of the night. Your anus feels sore and, on examining it, you feel a sticky substance there. You get dressed and speak to the receptionist. He tells you came in a last night with a Mr Johnson and that he departed at 3am.

Would you just shrug it off and go home?

I need some context before I answer...

• Do I (in this thought experiment) enjoy the company of men in the bedroom?
• Have I done this sort of thing before?

 

[mattbianco1]

Scenario No. 3

You wake up... bla bla bla.

With a horrible naked ugly train wreck of a faced woman next to you that never in a million years would you even talk to her let alone touch her in any kind of way other than a handshake.

Would you say you had been raped?

You were out of it but still able to speak (we've all had nights we can't remember). She was just took back that a bloke had spoken to her never mind shagged her!!

You can't remember it in the slightest. Does that constitute rape?

 

[Darren]

We both know that's not true

Not something i'd be doing every week, but we both had good fun at the time. I'd have been a bit disturbed is she'd been demanded we do it all the the time anyway....

Come on, I think most of the alpha males on here would throw up their hands in horror at the idea of a woman sticking something up their arse.....

 

[Selly]

Scenario No. 3

You wake up... bla bla bla.

With a horrible naked ugly train wreck of a faced woman next to you that never in a million years would you even talk to her let alone touch her in any kind of way other than a handshake.

Would you say you had been raped?

You were out of it but still able to speak (we've all had nights we can't remember). She was just took back that a bloke had spoken to her never mind shagged her!!

You can't remember it in the slightest. Does that constitute rape?

According to the facts of the case it does...

 

[mattbianco1]

According to the facts of the case it does...

But it wouldn't get that far surely. The courts would say that if you are capable of "Standing to attention" then you must've consented. How many times do we get erect in our sleep?

I've been woken up before to our lass playing with it; the dirty fucking rapist !

 

[Darren]

I need some context before I answer...

• Do I (in this thought experiment) enjoy the company of men in the bedroom?
• Have I done this sort of thing before?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you have never had sex with a man before and had no desire to. I assume that you will now say, yes you would do something about it as it could not be something you would have done willingly, hence it is likely to have been rape. On the other hand, if you liked to have sex with men, you wouldn't have done anything as it was not likely to have been rape.

Turning to the facts of the Evans case I assume the argument would be that beacuse this particular woman had (allegedly) been around a bit with men, she falls into the second category. But taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that, if someone woke up in this person's state and was celibate/a virgin/ lesbian, she would have a valid complaint of rape; and if she was an active heterosexual woman she wouldn't.

 

[Bladesman]

Someone's already told them......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/02/russia-today-ched-evans-rape

wow they move quick.

True the article is rather poorly put together but it at least highlights how many people read headlines rather than the case.

The amount of people claiming she said "No" is getting ridiculous.

 

[Darren]

According to the facts of the case it does...

Not it wouldn't. A woman can't commit rape as she doesn't have a penis. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines rape as:

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,
_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents

 

[broomhillblade]

We seem to be wandering off the main topic here.

Things which have struck me about nearly all the write-up on the Evans case is that:

1. Evans is routinely described as a 'rapist'. (Fair enough, the court convicted him).

2. The girl is described as a 'teenager'. (I understand she was only one month short of her 20th birthday - but 'teenager' makes it sound as though she was young and relatively innocent).

3. The girl is also routinely described as the 'victim' (even though it was widely reported that she willingly went back to the hotel in the first place). Her life has apparently been 'ruined' – something that only time will prove or otherwise.

The pen/keyboard is mightier than the sword...

 

[Selly]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you have never had sex with a man before and had no desire to. I assume that you will now say, yes you would do something about it as it could not be something you would have done willingly, hence it is likely to have been rape. On the other hand, if you liked to have sex with men, you wouldn't have done anything as it was not likely to have been rape.

Turning to the facts of the Evans case I assume the argument would be that beacuse this particular woman had (allegedly) been around a bit with men, she falls into the second category. But taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that, if someone woke up in this person's state and was celibate/a virgin/ lesbian, she would have a valid complaint of rape; and if she was an active heterosexual woman she wouldn't.

You asked what I would do.

If I am a sexually active person, and wake up having had an experience after a night out with the "right" gender (or 2 of them), and I can`t actually remember what happened, I'll chalk it up to experience (and remember not to get blotto next time so I can actually remember the experience)

If I'm a gold digging slapper I'll probably do somthing different...

 

[Selly]

But it wouldn't get that far surely. The courts would say that if you are capable of "Standing to attention" then you must've consented. How many times do we get erect in our sleep?

I've been woken up before to our lass playing with it; the dirty fucking rapist !

I beleive the defence used in the United States of a Woman accused of precisly this was along those line, "you can't push a marshmallow into a parking meter" was the phrase used...

...the court did not accept this arguement. Apparrently penile erectile function is an involuntary action...

Not it wouldn't. A woman can't commit rape as she doesn't have a penis. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines rape as:

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,
_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents

So what could she be charged with???

 

[mattbianco1]

Not it wouldn't. A woman can't commit rape as she doesn't have a penis. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines rape as:

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,
_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents

So if Ched had just performed oral sex on the woman is that rape?

What if the woman performs oral sex on me whilst i'm sleeping, is that rape?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Not it wouldn't. A woman can't commit rape as she doesn't have a penis. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 defines rape as:

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,
_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents

So what is it, if the female rapes the male via an object? Assault by Penetration?

Edit: Apparently only males can be done for that as well...

Assault by penetration(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b)the penetration is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

 

[Darren]

I beleive the defence used in the United States of a Woman accused of precisly this was along those line, "you can't push a marshmallow into a parking meter" was the phrase used...

...the court did not accept this arguement. Apparrently penile erectile function is an involuntary action...



So what could she be charged with???

If the chap alleged that they had had vaginal sex against his will, it would be sexual assault. If he alleged she stuck something in his mouth or anus, it would be assault by penetration.

 

[Bladesman]

So if Ched had just performed oral sex on the woman is that rape?

What if the woman performs oral sex on me whilst i'm sleeping, is that rape?

No that is just a great nights sleep.

 

[Darren]

So if Ched had just performed oral sex on the woman is that rape?

What if the woman performs oral sex on me whilst i'm sleeping, is that rape?

No and no. Both would just be sexual assault contrary to S3 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003

"Sexual assault


(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),

(b)the touching is sexual,

(c)B does not consent to the touching, and

(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents"

 

[Darren]

So what is it, if the female rapes the male via an object? Assault by Penetration?

Edit: Apparently only males can be done for that as well...

Assault by penetration(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b)the penetration is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

No, a woman can be done for that. "He" (as always in legislation) means both sexes unless stated otherwise.