RAPFA pre season meeting invitation - Saturday 9th of July

[Darren]

I used to be an actual Trot but, oddly perhaps, I have more respect for the Stalinists these days. As barmy, brutal and bloodthirsty as it was, it did, at least, exist. Trotskyism hasnt anywhere (though one Trot I spoke to recently gave me two examples - the Paris Commune and Soviet Russia 1917 to 1923, neither exactly encouraging me to rush back to the fold). You cant say 'but look at this' or 'look at that' because they will simply tell you it wasnt Trotskyism. The whole thing is rather a pretty gutless moral dodge.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------



I remember the discussion but that is not what I said.

It was something along the lines of how it was the parents' responsibility to ensure that their children were educated and that the state/society had no role to play in the matter, just as the state/society doesn't ensure that kids get their hair cut.

On the Trotskyism point, I suppose it all depends what you mean by Trotskyism. After all Stalin effectively took over the Trotskyist domestic programme in 1929 - full steam ahead with socialism based on large scale industrialisation via ruthless surplus extraction from the peasantry.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Why on earth would anyone not want compulsory education (Up to a certain age)?

 

[JJ Sefton]

It was something along the lines of how it was the parents' responsibility to ensure that their children were educated and that the state/society had no role to play in the matter, just as the state/society doesn't ensure that kids get their hair cut.

Well, even that isnt the same as

there shouldn't be compulsory education as we didn't have compulsory haircuts

---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

Why on earth would anyone not want compulsory education (Up to a certain age)?

Why do you need to make it compulsory?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

Because not all kids have responsible parents.

 

[JJ Sefton]

On the Trotskyism point, I suppose it all depends what you mean by Trotskyism. After all Stalin effectively took over the Trotskyist domestic programme in 1929 - full steam ahead with socialism based on large scale industrialisation via ruthless surplus extraction from the peasantry.

Well thats the thing, what is Trotskyism? Because there is nothing to it other than whatever is in a given Trots head each one has their own vision hence all the arguing. I read a history of the Workers Revolutionary Party once, its factions and splits, and it made my brain bleed.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

Because not all kids have responsible parents.

What sort of percentage are you talking about?

 

[Darren]

Well, even that isnt the same as



---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------



Why do you need to make it compulsory?

I fail to see the essential difference between the two quotes. If the state/soceity had no role to play in ensuring a child's education, how on earth could it be compulsory?

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6yTRq_rJg4

 

[Darren]

Well thats the thing, what is Trotskyism? Because there is nothing to it other than whatever is in a given Trots head each one has their own vision hence all the arguing. I read a history of the Workers Revolutionary Party once, its factions and splits, and it made my brain bleed.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------



What sort of percentage are you talking about?

That was your argument, the percentage of parents who wouldn't bother about their children's education was so small that we shouldn't bother about making it compulsory. I pointed out that, on the same argument, as very few parents sexually abuse their children, sexual abuse by parents should not be illegal.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I fail to see the essential difference between the two quotes. If the state/soceity had no role to play in ensuring a child's education, how on earth could it be compulsory?

In your made up characterisation of my position you make a causal link between compulsory education and haircuts which I have naver made. A more accurate description might be thats we dont need compulsory education in the same way as we dont need compulsory haircuts.

---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------

That was your argument, the percentage of parents who wouldn't bother about their children's education was so small that we shouldn't bother about making it compulsory. I pointed out that, on the same argument, as very few parents sexually abuse their children, sexual abuse by parents should not be illegal.

Which is, if I may, a ridiculous argument.

 

[Darren]

In your made up characterisation of my position you make a causal link between compulsory education and haircuts which I have naver made. A more accurate description might be thats we dont need compulsory education in the same way as we dont need compulsory haircuts.

---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 PM ----------



Which is, if I may, a ridiculous argument.

Why is it ridiculous. As it understand your argument it is as follows:

1. A small number of parents do not treat their children properly (you say by not educating them, I say by sexually abusing them).
2. If a particular piece of bad behaviour is only indulged in by a small number of people, we don't need a law to prevent it.

Why (if that is your argument), does that apply to comulsoryt education and not to child sexual abuse?

 

[JJ Sefton]

Why is it ridiculous. As it understand your argument it is as follows:

1. A small number of parents do not treat their children properly (you say by not educating them, I say by sexually abusing them).
2. If a particular piece of bad behaviour is only indulged in by a small number of people, we don't need a law to prevent it.

Why (if that is your argument), does that apply to comulsoryt education and not to child sexual abuse?

Remeber when you said we had this debate three years ago on another forum? Do you really think we need to have a re run?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

So basically you don't give a monkeys if some kids have their futures lives mapped out for them, by the parents failure to ensure they went to school?

I'm with Darren, i don't see the relevance of the percentage, and it does strike me as a bit contradictory to a similar argument about locking up nonces that we had on this very forum.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SKL7f9n58

 

[Darren]

Remeber when you said we had this debate three years ago on another forum? Do you really think we need to have a re run?

Fine, I just thought you had moved on from that fundamentalist libertarian position and am just a mite surprised you haven't.

 

[JJ Sefton]

So basically you don't give a monkeys if some kids have their futures lives mapped out for them, by the parents failure to ensure they went to school?

Not at all. Im just curious to know what percentage of people you are talking about here.

 

[Ollessendro]

So basically you don't give a monkeys if some kids have their futures lives mapped out for them, by the parents failure to ensure they went to school?

I'm with Darren, i don't see the relevance of the percentage, and it does strike me as a bit contradictory to a similar argument about locking up nonces that we had on this very forum.

I think Darrens argument is relevant but I do see the relevance of the percentage. I think that percentage might be quite high, particularly in deprived areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SKL7f9n58

Coming for a beer on Sat-di Jim?

 

[JJ Sefton]

Fine, I just thought you had moved on from that fundamentalist libertarian position and am just a mite surprised you haven't.

Again, attributing to me a position I dont hold. Thats up to you, I wont get as upset about it as you do and turn this into a discussion of your posting style. I would simply request that, given your fondness for doing so, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from having a go at me for doing it in the future.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I don't care what percentage it is.

One kid having their future opportunities robbed from them by feckless parents, is one kid too many.

 

[Darren]

Not at all. Im just curious to know what percentage of people you are talking about here.

Well, in just one local authority - Croydon 771 people were handed fines by the local authority and 469 prosecuted on a 3 year period

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...ecution-rate/story-11369140-detail/story.html

Extrapolate that over the country as a whole and we are talking thousands of kids.

 

[JJ Sefton]

I don't care what percentage it is.

That suggests to me that you know full well that we arent talking about very many people. That, in fact, is the case historically. Kids went to school in vast numbers before it was made compulsory.

 

[Darren]

Again, attributing to me a position I dont hold. Thats up to you, I wont get as upset about it as you do and turn this into a discussion of your posting style. I would simply request that, given your fondness for doing so, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from having a go at me for doing it in the future.

Well, with respect, arguing there should not be compulsory education is a fundamentalist libertarian position and, if that is your view (and I not sure if it is or not, but you seem to be strongly hinting that it is), then I can't see how you can object to what I say. If it isn't your position (and only you can tell us that), then I apologise for misinterpreting what you say.

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------

That suggests to me that you know full well that we arent talking about very many people. That, in fact, is the case historically. Kids went to school in vast numbers before it was made compulsory.

And vast numbers worked down the mines, in cotton mills, up chimneys etc

 

[JJ Sefton]

Well, with respect, arguing there should not be compulsory education is a fundamentalist libertarian position and, if that is your view (and I not sure if it is or not, but you seem to be strongly hinting that it is), then I can't see how you can object to what I say. If it isn't your position (and only you can tell us that), then I apologise for misinterpreting what you say.

Im actually a little curious to know where, exactly, I, or indeed anyone else, has said on this thread that the compulsive element in education should be ended.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

And vast numbers worked down the mines, in cotton mills, up chimneys etc

What are you on about?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

That suggests to me that you know full well that we arent talking about very many people. That, in fact, is the case historically. Kids went to school in vast numbers before it was made compulsory.

Wrong. I have no idea how many kids it is now. One kid is one kid too many...

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Coming for a beer on Sat-di Jim?

Long way to go for a pint Olle

Speaking of real ale, the Jail Ale went down very well last night :drunk:

 

[JJ Sefton]

Wrong. I have no idea how many kids it is now. One kid is one kid too many...

Then I would suggest that, given the numbers in Croydon, the current system must be a dismal failure in your eyes.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

And the numbers in croydon are.....

The current system of What? Compulsory education?

 

[Jon Bon]

A-hem, anyway back on topic. Sounds like a delightful idea to me. I love real ale and I'll be going to the game. Sadly, as a veteran of the Robson car park protest and an attendee of the Wilson one, I fear I may be arrested on sight by Kim-il-Ollie's secret police. Still, they can but try....

 

[JJ Sefton]

And the numbers in croydon are.....

Posted by Darren above

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

The current system of What? Compulsory education?

Yes, if "One kid is one kid too many" and we have hundreds bunking off in one area.

 

[Ollessendro]

Long way to go for a pint Olle

Speaking of real ale, the Jail Ale went down very well last night :drunk:

From parts unknown? I guess so.

South Devon's finest. Nice.

I don't care what percentage it is.

One kid having their future opportunities robbed from them by feckless parents, is one kid too many.

Whilst I agree in principle, I think the percentage is very important.

Darren gives some good concrete evidence on how important this issue is and the numbers that is involved. I can only offer anecdotal evidence. I grew up in a shithole where many parents did not give a stuff about their kids education. The percentage of kinds not going to Rawmarsh Comprehensive school in the 90's (i.e. I was there) because their parents were not arsed would have been very high. Some of those kids went on to do good things. Many still got failed by the (educational and social) system but I belive they stood a much greater chance by being forced to go to school.

A-hem, anyway back on topic. Sounds like a delightful idea to me. I love real ale and I'll be going to the game. Sadly, as a veteran of the Robson car park protest and an attendee of the Wilson one, I fear I may be arrested on sight by Kim-il-Ollie's secret police. Still, they can but try....

I'd be willing to make an exception. But only for the guy in the green bomber jacket.

 

[Jon Bon]

I'd be willing to make an exception. But only for the guy in the green bomber jacket.

Thankfully, that wasn't me. Looks like you'll have to make do without my wit and repartee then. Good luck - I shall be watching.....