For the greater good of Sheffield Football is now the time to merge?

[Yossarian]

And that's important because....

 

[sheffielder]

And it won't have to. However, it would be a little harder for you if they didn't exist.



This would suggest it's not an American ideal to merge clubs.

The American thing is about becoming a Franchise and moving clubs to other cities when unsuccessful or when the fanbase dwindles. The idea of United and Wednesday merging has come from people like yourself who seem to only want to support a football team if it has chance of success. Is that right?

 

[Yossarian]

The American thing is about becoming a Franchise and moving clubs to other cities when unsuccessful or when the fanbase dwindles. The idea of United and Wednesday merging has come from people like yourself who seem to only want to support a football team if it has chance of success. Is that right?

That's rather a simplistic way of looking at it. As is "the idea is only being opposed by those satisfied with the history of mediocrity that has surrounded both Sheffield clubs since their respective formations".

If you want to deal in generalisations that may or may not be true, just to support your argument.

But in any case, who said anything about moving cities? The original post was "For the good of Sheffield football". I'm simply arguing that a merge of the two clubs into a new one with a fresh outlook (a forward facing one, for a start) would be very good for Sheffield football.

Oh, and yes. I'm a fan of Sheffield United and England because I only wan to support a team that is successful.

 

[sheffielder]

Have I missed something? Why do you want Wednesday and United to merger? It seems like the only explanation whether it be simple or not.

You also started supporting United knowing there was a history of mediocrity did you not?

 

[Yossarian]

Have I missed something? Why do you want Wednesday and United to merger? It seems like the only explanation whether it be simple or not.

The original post was "For the good of Sheffield football". I'm simply arguing that a merge of the two clubs into a new one with a fresh outlook (a forward facing one, for a start) would be very good for Sheffield football.

You also started supporting United knowing there was a history of mediocrity did you not?

As a small boy taken to matches by my father, I had no idea of the history of the club. And as I said, that's only for people interested in debating with lazy generalisations.

 

[Revolution]

But in any case, who said anything about moving cities? The original post was "For the good of Sheffield football". I'm simply arguing that a merge of the two clubs into a new one with a fresh outlook (a forward facing one, for a start) would be very good for Sheffield football.

And I repeat, as I haven't had an answer from anyone who thinks this is a good idea:

What "greater good of Sheffield football"? That's a nebulous concept if ever there was one. Why is this more important than "the greater good of Sheffield United" or, objectively speaking, the "greater good of Sheffield Wednesday"? A merger is not for the greater good of these institutions, both over 120 years old with their own traditions and thousands of supporters. It's the death knell for both.

How is it for the greater good to wreck something that is so important to tens of thousands of people? What higher purpose are we pursuing that cannot be achieved by them separately given some sensible investment and management?

And Len, if you think the transformation from Wimbledon to MK Dons was not difficult, you weren't paying attention, and you don't know any Wimbledon fans. It was a long drawn out process involved the destruction of a fanbase, a club everyone hated playing in front of attendances not seen in the 2nd tier for 100 years, and tribunal hearings. Plus the resulting situation does not exactly please everyone.

Anyway, you're comparing apples with oranges there. Better comparisons are the abortive Thames Valley Royals and Fulham Park Rangers, both of which were seen off by fanbases far smaller than ours and Wednesday's, which is a good indication that it ain't happening.

 

[sheffielder]

The original post was "For the good of Sheffield football". I'm simply arguing that a merge of the two clubs into a new one with a fresh outlook (a forward facing one, for a start) would be very good for Sheffield football.


As a small boy taken to matches by my father, I had no idea of the history of the club. And as I said, that's only for people interested in debating with lazy generalisations.

This isn't politics, it's football. Stop the put downs with the 'lazy generalisations' and stick to the topic. My comments this morning whether you like them or not are not lazy and are the thoughts of 99% of us

 

[Yossarian]

Sorry Sheffielder, I'm just tired of the "REAL Blades" wouldn't even think of supporting this idea, and "If you want to support a successful team, go follow Manure". It seems that put downs and 'lazy generalisations' are for people who think it's a bad idea.

There seems to be this idea that supporting Sheffield United is like following some higher calling - and that it's not at all based on who our parents support. People saying "I'd prefer to slice through my balls with a rusty razor blade than merge with that shower of shite" etc forget that but for being born to the right parents, you'd be supporting that shower of shite. Let's get over ourselves. As fans, we support the team we do (most of us) through birth. It's a hereditary disease, you might say. This would just be as true if 30 years ago, the two clubs had merged. We're not special. We're no different from Owls supporters. We just follow a football team. And we're passionate about it, just as they. Can anybody tell be why uniting the football fans of Sheffield would be a bad idea?

 

[Highbury_Blade]

My dad is an owl. Not everyone follows their parents team.

 

[Yossarian]

I know. The majority of people do though. I've read people saying they started supporting the Blades just to piss their father off. Which is very pragmatistic, don't you think?

---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 AM ----------

What "greater good of Sheffield football"? That's a nebulous concept if ever there was one. Why is this more important than "the greater good of Sheffield United" or, objectively speaking, the "greater good of Sheffield Wednesday"? A merger is not for the greater good of these institutions, both over 120 years old with their own traditions and thousands of supporters. It's the death knell for both.

Interesting points. Start a thread entitled "For the greater good of Sheffield United Football Club is merging really a good idea?" and they will be relevant.

 

[Bladesway]

Ah but Rev, you missed the question mark at the end. The point is to open debate. For myself I don't want it to happen. However, and whether you and I like it or not, it is a real option on the table. I'm afraid the amount of people who will support us no matter what is now mainy restricted to older generations (in general) as the younger generations growing up have options and the competition for their support is broader. Like it or not, more people will watch football from their armchairs rather than support a local club, especially when it is failing (like we are). We do the free football for kids and that gets them through the gate, then they see the shite we churn out against a Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal etc etc etc and guess what, they go support them. Whilever we are as we are our only way to get success is going to be either over achieving for a couple of seasons and getting into the Premier League to scrap and scrape or to merge to give us the ultimate chance of success. Its not given and its not guaranteed but its a damn site more likely to work than what is on the table now.

Go forwards 5 years and Leeds will be back in the Premiership within the top 10, meaning theres an additional local drain on our supporter base. Sky are only going to keep showing the amount of on demand football that they are currently so there will be an outlet for anyone who actually wants to watch top class football. And in my experience most people do and will. So where does that leave a League One Sheffield United and/or Sheffield Wednesday? Both scrapping for city superiority and looking, not at where we could be if we joined forces but where we are in relation to "them".

Take out the tribalism (thats what any investor will do) and you have all the ingredients to make it work. People forget very quickly and while Thames Valley Rangers or whatever didn't work ten or so years ago its a different environment now.

We are already a world away from the Sheffield United that we were 20 years ago. We have Season Cards, we are clients not fans (to the chairmen and PLC gang). They are looking at revenue streams because the fans alone can't pay the wage bill. We have a bloody big hotel attached to the ground now, we have clubs dotted all over the place. Our brief journey into the Premiership actually killed the club as we know it. Its gone. The passion, the "I'm a blade so it hurts me as much as it hurts you" approach from McCabe doesn't cut it any longer. We were always an investment opportunity and purely a business toy for him. He tried to sell us when we were in the Premiership but couldn't attract the interest. Then we got relegated and he got saddled with us.

I suppose it comes down to what you want. If you want success it isn't going to come to us. If you don't care and you just want a club to support then thats fine. No way is better than any other but when we don't spend the money because we don't have the income, or we don't spend on anyone in the Transfer window you know why it is.

 

[sheffielder]

Sorry Sheffielder, I'm just tired of the "REAL Blades" wouldn't even think of supporting this idea, and "If you want to support a successful team, go follow Manure". It seems that put downs and 'lazy generalisations' are for people who think it's a bad idea.

There seems to be this idea that supporting Sheffield United is like following some higher calling - and that it's not at all based on who our parents support. People saying "I'd prefer to slice through my balls with a rusty razor blade than merge with that shower of shite" etc forget that but for being born to the right parents, you'd be supporting that shower of shite. Let's get over ourselves. As fans, we support the team we do (most of us) through birth. It's a hereditary disease, you might say. This would just be as true if 30 years ago, the two clubs had merged. We're not special. We're no different from Owls supporters. We just follow a football team. And we're passionate about it, just as they. Can anybody tell be why uniting the football fans of Sheffield would be a bad idea?

My dad and bro support Manure. Cousins outwards support the pigs. Supporting United for me was a choice I made at school and went to my first game in January 1986. I have worked all over the world however in 2004 I made the choice that I was getting to 30 years old and wanted to move back to Sheffield and get back to what I love, the Blades. These memories and decisions will live with me forever. For me, any idea of a merger taints any decision I have ever made in regards to football and I would probably have a long chat with the wife about moving to America to support my other true love American Football. Sheffield has no other hold on me than United

 

[oldblade]

Both. And it's not a problem.

Maybe not to you, but it is to me.

 

[JohnDenver]

Sorry Sheffielder, I'm just tired of the "REAL Blades" wouldn't even think of supporting this idea, and "If you want to support a successful team, go follow Manure".

But that's exactly what you'll get in response because you're advocating the destruction of something very important to thousands of people.

I can think plenty of very good reasons why it's a terrible idea and I've posted them previously. What does unite most Blades and Owls is not the thought of a new Sheffield City team winning the league - it's the concept of my club for better or worse. Both clubs are incredibly special to each fan base. And there will be a time in the future when both clubs are in the top division again, just as they both might be in the third next season.

I'm not a Blade by parentage either - they were my local club when I came to this city (and to this country) as a small child. That fact didn't excluded me. SUFC is a huge part of the history and identity of this area, and long may it continue to be so.

 

[richmondblade]

Firstly, I'll start by saying that regardless of whether or not a merger would work, it is incredibly unlikely to happen in my opinion. There is simply too great a rivalry between the two clubs, and even if the majority accepted a merger and supported the new Sheffield City FC or whatever it was called, then there will always be some mindless idiots (if you want to call them that) who will look to cause trouble with fans of their former rivals.

Secondly, the whole idea of there being a 50,000-strong fanbase and attendances of 40,000 or whatever are very inaccurate. For the reasons given above, it would take a long, long time for the old rivalries to die away, and the clubs to have any reasonably sized fanbase. Some may say that in the long run, this will be a good thing. But what about the immediate future of a merged club? Will that be accepted, and will it be able to survive at all?

To be honest, we've seen recently that fanbases or the size of the club are not the problem at all. Both United and Wednesday are reasonably-sized clubs, but may both be stuggling in the 3rd tier next season. Similarly, Leeds, another reasonably-sized club, are in the 2nd tier, having just spent 3 years in League 1. On the other hand, smaller clubs like Wigan, Bolton, Blackpool are in the Premiership, and even considering the glory supporters (which comes with any club being in the Premiership) they have small crowds.

So what's the difference between these, and the 2 Sheffield clubs? Club management.

The only way to succeed in football nowadays is to either have a rich backer (eg: Wigan) or to be prudent and well-run in the long run (eg: Blackpool, Bolton). We have seen that Wednesday have been poorly run over the years, and are now paying the price. United have, on the whole, up to and including the Premiership season, been well run. Don't forget that this is a team that despite being distinctly average, still amassed 38 points, and only went down on the final day of the season.

However, it all went down the drain in the season after. McCabe threw money around, hoping to get a quick return, and it was a massive gamble that didn't pay off, for various reasons. The result of this is that we have had to drastically cut our cloth according to the reduced income we now have following the end of the parachute payments. The consequences of this are that we may now end up worse off than when McCabe first took over. Its a crying shame really, because the slow but sure progress that we made until 2007 has been thrown away in a matter of a couple of years.

By merging the two clubs, there is absolutely no gurantee of success, and in the worst-case scenario, we may end up with a failing team, sitting in the lower leagues. A team to which very few people have any affection, and as a result, lose interest in.

Sorry, I've gone a bit off topic there. The general gist of it is that any merger would probably be a disaster.

 

[boo radley]

Newcastle, constantly 40 to 50 000 and rich bloke in charge. They went down and are constantly failing to break in to the top six.

 

[Revolution]

Interesting points. Start a thread entitled "For the greater good of Sheffield United Football Club is merging really a good idea?" and they will be relevant.

Condescending as well as arrogant. How can asking what is the "greater good of Sheffield football" and why is it more important than the greater good of the two existing teams not be relevant?

 

[Kenilworth]

Richmond - very well put. There would be no way at all to bury the factions and the two polarised traditions, which would split up any new, artificially created, entity. It could never survive. The slightest lack of success or hint of failure would result in the older rivalry resurfacing and inevitably that would end in violence. It's unthinkable.

Lenners - comparisons with Newcastle and Leeds do not have any relevance since both of them are one team cities and to my knowledge always have been. Their support has come from generations of fans singing from the same sheet.

There will not be any success whatsoever in a Sheffield City club, merged from the two. It could never sustain any meaningful level of support. If it happens (and the slick marketing bods would probably call it something like “Sheffield Crucible” to give the impression that it was forged together in some kind of super strength union from the Steel City) I would guarantee that teams known as Sheffield United and Sheffield Wendy will be formed again, from scratch. Just like FC United of Manchester and Wimbledon AFC they would start off at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up. 90% of the supporters would follow those teams and not the bastardised, Frankenstein’s monster that would be the product of a misguided, merger. I, for one, would give up on football altogether if it ever did happen. Franchise FC would be a plastic idol with no substance. It would be the laughing stock of the who football community, Worldwide. Shit, we have enough of that already.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

For most, if not all, football fans their club IS football. They may watch others now and again, catch the live games and highlights on TV and even adopt a second club, but the passion is wholly invested in their club. Try to merge and they will fight strongly against it (Thames Valley Royals), try to re-locate and they will reject this and start again with what they see as the true identity of the club (AFC Wimbledon), take the ownership of the club too far away from the fans and they'll turn their back on the club (Green and Yellow mob and AFC United).

Whether those in charge of the game still understand this or not (IMHO it is defintely NOT), but the passion and love for the majority of fans is for the club they follow and not the sport, talk of a massive fan base for any merged club is pure nonsense because of that. It would take more than a generation for that to start to appear, and by that point Sheffield City could be an insignificant division 2 side with no hope of being anything else.

 

[oldblade]

We're not special. We're no different from Owls supporters. We just follow a football team. And we're passionate about it, just as they. Can anybody tell be why uniting the football fans of Sheffield would be a bad idea?

But we are different in as much that for whatever reason we chose to support Sheffield United, not Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds United, Nottingham Forest, Manchester United or anyone else. It doesn't make us a special case, but it means we support a different club to supporters of other clubs. And in our minds, our club is special to us.

As you rightly say earlier in the post, it's not some kind of higher calling, but it is the club we support. We wanted to support Sheffield United, not anyone else. I am very fond of our history, and everything else about us - our club colours, our ground. I am reminded of the supporters episode of the BBC "United" series of 1990, when the elderly lady stated that she'd been to other grounds and many of them were very nice, but it wasn't the same as going to Bramall Lane. On entering the ground she always got an uplifting feeling that she did not feel anywhere else. Many of us probably feel the same. I have been to many grounds, including the Millennium Stadium, and the old and new Wembly, and I also think that nowhere feels like Bramall Lane. It is something that gets embedded in you over time. I also like my pre match ritual, the particular pubs that I go to, the people that I see.

Simplistic and emotional rubbish? Maybe, but we can't help our feelings and emotions. I'm sure Wednesday supporters and others feel the same.

People with no strong allegiance to any club would probably have no difficulty in attaching themselves to a merged club. Those of us whose allegiance has developed and deepened over time will have a big difficulty with it.

Rather than merging I think the respective owners of the two clubs should concentrate on organising the existing clubs better than has been done in the past. Both have good fanbases, and the population of the area is far and away enough to support two successful clubs. It's only because by coincidence both our fortunes are in the toilet simultaneously that this is being mentioned at all.

 

[mattbianco1]

Ok. So then on the creation of a new Sheffield club, they would no longer be rivals, opposition, pigs, filth, snortbeasts, or "the other". Do you need such a thing in your life?

They would need to have us in separate sides of the ground for many many years until the generations have changed. Otherwise there would be in crowd fighting between "Ex Blades" & "Ex Owls."

I can just imagine it now.

Picture this if you will...

You're sat in row JJ on the 3rd tier of Don Valley Stadium (that has been expanded due to the merger) and all of a sudden the guy next to you shouts "Evans you sh*te b@st@rd, how did you miss that. Easy to see which colour he used to wear. Unlike 'JJ' that was a quality cross, can tell he's a blue and white!"

Now tell me you wouldn't fucking argue!

 

[oldblade]

I'm simply arguing that a merge of the two clubs into a new one with a fresh outlook (a forward facing one, for a start) would be very good for Sheffield football.

Oh, and yes. I'm a fan of Sheffield United and England because I only wan to support a team that is successful.

Why not just run the existing clubs better?

 

[norfolkblade]

They would need to have us in separate sides of the ground for many many years until the generations have changed. Otherwise there would be in crowd fighting between "Ex Blades" & "Ex Owls."

I can just imagine it now.

Picture this if you will...

You're sat in row JJ on the 3rd tier of Don Valley Stadium (that has been expanded due to the merger) and all of a sudden the guy next to you shouts "Evans you sh*te b@st@rd, how did you miss that. Easy to see which colour he used to wear. Unlike 'JJ' that was a quality cross, can tell he's a blue and white!"

Now tell me you wouldn't fucking argue!

Couldn't agree more with this, I honestly can not see why anyone would want to merge with the Wendys, I wouldn't even want to ground share with them, let alone fucking merge!

 

[sheffielder]

- I wonder if Newcastle, Sunderland and Boro wanted to merge when they were rubbish in the 80's and getting average crowds of 12k
- 2 years ago, did people think we would have to merge with the pigs to become bigger than Leeds?

Seems to me as though no other club has ever merged (not including mk/wimbledon etc) yet people seem to think this would 'fix' sheffield football

 

[beightonblade]

On a head basis it makes sense.... on a heart basis it makes no fooking sense !
Most of us owd time Blades have been enduring the Blades on a heart basis otherwise we wudn't have put up wi em !

 

[Highbury_Blade]

If we were in the running for promotion i wonder how many people would still be arguing for it. Very few i'd bet.

---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

On a head basis it makes sense.... on a heart basis it makes no fooking sense !
Most of us owd time Blades have been enduring the Blades on a heart basis otherwise we wudn't have put up wi em !

It doesn't even make sense on a head basis.

 

[JohnDenver]

On a head basis it makes sense.... on a heart basis it makes no fooking sense !
Most of us owd time Blades have been enduring the Blades on a heart basis otherwise we wudn't have put up wi em !

The "head" basis doesn't stand up either. It's a good idea to someone looking at bare stats from a considerable distance away. Probably a few parsecs.

 

[Kenilworth]

Beighton must be considering the wrong sort of "head"

 

[Yossarian]

They would need to have us in separate sides of the ground for many many years until the generations have changed. Otherwise there would be in crowd fighting between "Ex Blades" & "Ex Owls."

I can just imagine it now.

Picture this if you will...

You're sat in row JJ on the 3rd tier of Don Valley Stadium (that has been expanded due to the merger) and all of a sudden the guy next to you shouts "Evans you sh*te b@st@rd, how did you miss that. Easy to see which colour he used to wear. Unlike 'JJ' that was a quality cross, can tell he's a blue and white!"

Now tell me you wouldn't fucking argue!

That's a fair argument. Because you'd never hear any Blades slagging off their own players. Are you so convinced of your own inability to control yourself that you'd need to be in another section of the ground? Perhaps you need to consider anger management classes.

 

[sheffielder]

That's a fair argument. Because you'd never hear any Blades slagging off their own players. Are you so convinced of your own inability to control yourself that you'd need to be in another section of the ground? Perhaps you need to consider anger management classes.

Your like arguing with a woman mate! Someone answers your points then you change the direction of the conversation. You turn everything