Gone Elsewhere Antonee Robinson

[Kanye]

...we've signed a lot of odd ducks, mediocrities and out and out failures. Off the top of my head, there's Chris Hussey, James Wilson, James Wilson jr, Lee Evans, Ched Evans, Ryan fucking Leonard, Ricky Holmes, Kean Bryan, Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell, Callum Robinson, Luke Freeman, Richario Zivkovic and Retsos Panos Retsos who have contributed little to nothing.

Have we had a lot of odd ducks? Have we had a normal amount of odd ducks, or even a below average amount?

You can cite plenty of transfer flops from every team, especially one like ours who tend to make low cost gambles, and have had such a swift rise.

In short, listing a dozen signings that didn't really work out doesn't really say a great deal about our recruitment on the whole.

 

[Booker4]

Again I don't necessarily disagree. I think that recruitment is the weakest part of this otherwise excellent operation. Along with some undeniable successes, we've signed a lot of odd ducks, mediocrities and out and out failures. Off the top of my head, there's Chris Hussey, James Wilson, James Wilson jr, Lee Evans, Ched Evans, Ryan fucking Leonard, Ricky Holmes, Kean Bryan, Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell, Callum Robinson, Luke Freeman, Richario Zivkovic and Retsos Panos Retsos who have contributed little to nothing.

What I don't understand is so many seasoned Transfer Window veterans taking the word of Twitter that we've had a bid accepted as proof positive that the player is now ours, and the premature back-slapping that ensues.

A lot of the players you've listed there were from the league One days or were bought for very little such as Kean Bryan and you'd therefore expect that many of them will not come off because their value reflects their quality or that there's a reason they're cheap such as Ravel Morrison.

For all of the above you've also got the likes of Egan, O'Connell, Fleck, Baldock, Norwood, Lundstram - etc. Every club will have a similar success and failures rate. I think I've heard it said if you get over 50% of your transfers right you're doing well. Its not the numbers of failure players its the amount it costs for the failures and from the above list the likes of Leonard and Lee Evans were sold on for what we bought them for or slightly more in Evans case. Also I say failures but there's reasons they didn't come off, its not like they cost £10m and have failed.

Going back on Warnocks days and Bassetts you could come up with similar lists of failures and successes. If I listed Warnock's recruitment you could look at the likes of Akinbiyi, Horsfield, Claude Davis and Luton Shelton (and they were all relatively more costly than most of the list you mentioned) but you'd also have the likes of Armstrong, Paddy Kenny, Del Geary, Craig Short, and Jon Stead. I think Warnock was worst than Wilder in the market but still bought in many crackers.

Ched Evans was most likely bought by an agreement that McCabe had and not by Wilder. There's also loans in your list and that's a difficult market because loan players are often players that are not good enough at their parent clubs (yet as in developing, or full stop) and they're lacking in match fitness. Loan players are also often only brought in for cover and to have a look at them. If they come off great if not they've offered cover at a time when we didn't or couldn't get a permanent player on board or they were never going to be brought in as a permanent anyway as they were covering for an injured player. I do accept that Zivkovic, Retsos and James Wilson from Man U were all failures as signings but, as I say, the remit is different as we needed cover and to have a look at only, with no commitment for a permanent signing and financially didn't cost the earth most likely.

I think, overall, Wilder has done brilliantly in the transfer market. His problem now is that it difficult to improve the starting eleven on the budget we have particularly for wages. We may have to buy players as squad players first, develop them and then over a season or two they'll be more likely to be in the first eleven.

 

[Guesty]

Have we had a lot of odd ducks? Have we had a normal amount of odd ducks, or even a below average amount?

You can cite plenty of transfer flops from every team, especially one like ours who tend to make low cost gambles, and have had such a swift rise.

In short, listing a dozen signings that didn't really work out doesn't really say a great deal about our recruitment on the whole.

Odd duck signing for me include Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell and Ched Evans. They seemed to be signed based on a mix of sentiment and belief in potential that had long since been squandered. Apart from a few die hard Chedites, no-one really expected anything from these signings, and nothing is what they provided.

Yes every team has plenty of flops, but ours are bulked up by the weird signings above, plus oddities like signing Retsos and never playing him (quite possiblyfor good reason), and a player from the Chinese second division.

Buying Ricky Holmes and moving too quickly as a club for him, or not realising that Ryan Leonard is actually absolute tosswank is one thing, it happens. But we have a weird predilection for absolute flyers and broken birds that never even threaten the first XI.

 

[Blade56]

"Worried we are going to be demolished by this TW"
"....really bad feeling about squad improving"

Why?

Just based on what’s happened so far with deals apparently being agreed with Cash, Swift, Ramsdale only to then be told they are probably going elsewhere either due to ‘the London factor’ championship clubs being more attractive than us (Reading/QPR) or just being prepared to pay the going rate on wages.

We appear to have bought ourselves a problem with Moose if he can’t cope with the ‘big time’, we appear to have unsettled players with issues regarding the wage structure and we can’t afford to hang on to what was our prize asset last season.

I also think the media perpetuated our ‘little ‘ol SUFC‘ image and a club that is not a destination for upcoming players as we were seen so negatively as a bang cert for relegation last season. Furthermore, I think CW perpetuated this image to his advantage in his genius match psychology, worked ok for last seasons match approach but has it backfired with players seeing us as a kick and hope we stay up outfit?

Onto Wilder himself. Absolute genius taking us through the divisions over the last three years with the core of his L1 team. Everyone said he would struggle to stay in the championship then we stayed a season to take a breath, strengthened a bit took a breath then got another promotion. Fair does we spent by our standards a large amount of money and he did it again. This season just maybe he has been hung by his own petard if the owners think we invested last year and Wilder can kick on again without the level on wage investment this league commands and get us higher than 9th. The Prince is on record as saying he wants European football and he’s close but many a fall comes just before the finish line.

So there you have my ‘negative‘ (genuine concerns) about this TW and the upcoming season. Feel free to save it and hopefully you can rub my nose in it next Christmas. As a Blade I am purposely in the slasher camp, I think it’s a safety mechanism to stop me getting to optimistic, it’s sort of the opposite of being a Pig

On a positive note (yes I have then anall) I’m hoping there’s some sort of deep strategical manipulation of the transfer market going on and the targets we appear to be losing out on are a smoke screen. I’m hoping we will have another 2/3 Sander Burges coming in and not a raft of failed bargains / loanees like Ravel, Retsos, Zivkovic, Kean Bryan, Rodwell et al.

That said it’s a sobering thought we might start next season with Billy (love him) as our most prolific striker.

 

[Kanye]

Odd duck signing for me include Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell and Ched Evans. They seemed to be signed based on a mix of sentiment and belief in potential that had long since been squandered. Apart from a few die hard Chedites, no-one really expected anything from these signings, and nothing is what they provided.

Yes every team has plenty of flops, but ours are bulked up by the weird signings above, plus oddities like signing Retsos and never playing him (quite possiblyfor good reason), and a player from the Chinese second division.

Buying Ricky Holmes and moving too quickly as a club for him, or not realising that Ryan Leonard is actually absolute tosswank is one thing, it happens. But we have a weird predilection for absolute flyers and broken birds that never even threaten the first XI.

I think the reason we sign players like Rodwell and Morrison is obvious: the cost is minimal and the potential is huge. I suspect plenty of people at the club could forecast what would happen with Morrison: it was unlikely he would ever break into the team, but we signed him based on the remote chance it would work.

And yes, we've signed a lot of players who never got near the first team - that's a characteristic we share with practically every football club in history.

 

[Guesty]

I think the reason we sign players like Rodwell and Morrison is obvious: the cost is minimal and the potential is huge. I suspect plenty of people at the club could forecast what would happen with Morrison: it was unlikely he would ever break into the team, but we signed him based on the remote chance it would work.

And yes, we've signed a lot of players who never got near the first team - that's a characteristic we share with practically every football club in history.

Of course it is, but we've signed a bunch that never, ever seemed likely to. Morrison squandered whatever (in my opinion hugely overblown) potential he had years ago. Ched Evans was as a baffling signing.

Also, let's not forget that when they were signed, Luke Freeman and Callum Robinson were both record signings. To then turn around and go 'oh well, not every player can make an impact' smacks of slightly careless recruitment.

 

[Booker4]

Just based on what’s happened so far with deals apparently being agreed with Cash, Swift, Ramsdale only to then be told they are probably going elsewhere either due to ‘the London factor’ championship clubs being more attractive than us (Reading/QPR) or just being prepared to pay the going rate on wages.

We appear to have bought ourselves a problem with Moose if he can’t cope with the ‘big time’, we appear to have unsettled players with issues regarding the wage structure and We can’t afford to hang on to what was our prize asset last season.

I also think the media perpetuated our ‘little ‘ol SUFC‘ image and a club that is not a destination for upcoming players as we were seen so negatively as a bang cert for relegation last season. Furthermore, I think CW perpetuated this image to his advantage in his genius match psychology, worked ok for last seasons match approach but has it backfired with players seeing us as a kick and hope we stay up outfit?

Onto Wilder himself. Absolute genius taking us through the divisions over the last three years with the core of his L1 team. Everyone said he would struggle to stay in the championship then we stayed a season to take a breath, strengthened a bit took a breath then got another promotion. Fair does we spent by our standards a large amount of money and he did it again. This season just maybe he has been hung by his own petard if the owners think we invested last year and Wilder can kick on again without the level on wage investment this league commands and get us higher than 9th. The Prince is on record as saying he wants European football and he’s close but many a fall comes just before the finish line.

So there you have my ‘negative‘ (genuine concerns) about this TW and the upcoming season. Feel free to save it and hopefully you can rub my nose in it next Christmas. As a Blade I am purposely in the slasher camp, I think it’s a safety mechanism to stop me getting to optimistic, it’s sort of the opposite of being a Pig

On a positive note (yes I have then anall) I’m hoping there’s some sort of deep strategical manipulation of the transfer market going on and the targets we appear to be losing out on are a smoke screen. I’m hoping we will have another 2/3 Sander Burges coming in and not a raft of failed bargains / loanees like Ravel, Reston’s, Zivkovic, Kean Bryan, et al.

I love your honesty 56, and I get you concerns but I think by the end of the window we'll have 5/6 decent additions and we'll finish top ten at least next season. I'm in the clapper camp! But I base my expectations on having the best manager in the league or one of them, and we already have a good team, its not like we've just finished 4th bottom and need several new signings. We've got the base of a good team already.

 

[Booker4]

Of course it is, but we've signed a bunch that never, ever seemed likely to. Morrison squandered whatever (in my opinion hugely overblown) potential he had years ago. Ched Evans was as a baffling signing.

Also, let's not forget that when they were signed, Luke Freeman and Callum Robinson were both record signings. To then turn around and go 'oh well, not every player can make an impact' smacks of slightly careless recruitment.

Fairly sure from past interviews that Wilder didn't sign Ched. You can only judge the Freeman and Robinson signings after they leave because if we get our money back than that represents good business because they still came in and added something, particularly Robinson, or added competition. Freeman's not played much but Fleck has been outstanding until the lock down and then Freeman got injured himself and may have played more if he was fit then.

 

[Kanye]

Of course it is, but we've signed a bunch that never, ever seemed likely to. Morrison squandered whatever (in my opinion hugely overblown) potential he had years ago. Ched Evans was as a baffling signing.

I wouldn't say "never" - it was unlikely Morrison or Evans would succeed rather than impossible. In both cases we were small fish, with a small budget, in a new division: we were building a squad on a relative shoe-string and had to make these sorts of gambles.

Also, let's not forget that when they were signed, Luke Freeman and Callum Robinson were both record signings. To then turn around and go 'oh well, not every player can make an impact' smacks of slightly careless recruitment.

Is it careless recruitment though? If it is: surely every club on the planet is careless with recruitment, because I'm sure every fan can recall an expensive flop or two.

Can you name 5 clubs in the country with a better recruitment record/strategy than ourselves?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say based on total expenditure on wages/fees in relation to overall position in the football pyramid, we have the best recruitment in the country.

 

[Guesty]

Fairly sure from past interviews that Wilder didn't sign Ched. You can only judge the Freeman and Robinson signings after they leave because if we get our money back than that represents good business because they still came in and added something, particularly Robinson, or added competition. Freeman's not played much but Fleck has been outstanding until the lock down and then Freeman got injured himself and may have played more if he was fit then.

I haven't accused Wilder of signing anyone. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned his name in this conversation. Whether a player was signed by McCabe, the Prince, Bettis or Wilder doesn't matter, I'm talking about the whole operation.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Of course it is, but we've signed a bunch that never, ever seemed likely to. Morrison squandered whatever (in my opinion hugely overblown) potential he had years ago. Ched Evans was as a baffling signing.

Also, let's not forget that when they were signed, Luke Freeman and Callum Robinson were both record signings. To then turn around and go 'oh well, not every player can make an impact' smacks of slightly careless recruitment.

I think Wilder himself knows most of the Rodwell,, Morrison, Zivkovic sigings are unlikely to come off. but the occassional success is worth it. Martin Crainie did a job for us in the championship and most fans viewed McGoldrick in the same way when we signed him.

Although we signed Robinson for a sizeable fee we also signed Mousset & McBurnie for the same role for even bigger fees and already had Didzy and Billy to play there so its doubtful he was ever seen as a certain first team starter. As for Freeman, he has going to be on the bench if we played a flat 3 in midfield as a Plan B change of system. If results had been poorer I think he'd have had more game time.

 

[TONY_TONY_AGANA]

As you say, Joe Bryan is their first choice left back.
He's only 26 yrs old, And is presumably coming up to his prime.
Surely he's not on anywhere near 50k a week, so where does he go from here.
I can see only trouble ahead for Fulham as loads of their first team squad will be wanting a pay increase.

If he goes to Fulham, then we know it's driven by money. No disrespect to Enda, I love the guy, but if you were Robinson you'd probably fancy yourself to dislodge Enda sooner than dislodging Joe Bryan.

In fact, we should put a cheeky bid in for Joe Bryan if Robinson signs for them.

 

[Mouth of the South]

I wouldn't say "never" - it was unlikely Morrison or Evans would succeed rather than impossible. In both cases we were small fish, with a small budget, in a new division: we were building a squad on a relative shoe-string and had to make these sorts of gambles.



Is it careless recruitment though? If it is: surely every club on the planet is careless with recruitment, because I'm sure every fan can recall an expensive flop or two.

Can you name 5 clubs in the country with a better recruitment record/strategy than ourselves?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say based on total expenditure on wages/fees in relation to overall position in the football pyramid, we have the best recruitment in the country.

Some very good points Kanye. For very differing reasons, it could perhaps be argued that Brentford, Peterborough, Liverpool, Chelsea, Southampton and Man City all have better recruitment models in place than Utd. CW has obviously worked wonders in getting a team from mid L1 to top 10 Prem in 4 season - a feat unlikely to be repeated for a long time (if ever!), especially without a big budget as a key enabler. A number of players recruited at L1 level have been good enough to survive and even excel at Prem level, which is indeed testament to Utd's recruitment. However, the biggest weakness in Utd's recruitment, accentuated by the club's rise through the leagues, is at academy/ U23 age whereby the top talent understandably choose Cat 1 Academies in the area. The result is no prospects being generated that are anywhere near 1st team level. It sounds as though this issue is being addressed though. Personally, I think this will be crucial if the club is to once again create a production line of talent. I'd also like the club to start speculating on lower league and foreign based players with a view to loaning them out and then, hopefully, reaping the rewards of their development.

 

[Rocketmark66]

If he goes to Fulham, then we know it's driven by money. No disrespect to Enda, I love the guy, but if you were Robinson you'd probably fancy yourself to dislodge Enda sooner than dislodging Joe Bryan.

In fact, we should put a cheeky bid in for Joe Bryan if Robinson signs for them.

All depends on the fee, as he'll more than likely still have at least a couple of years left on his contract and if we can match his wages, he may also be on more than Enda.
So then Enda will want more money, and then the whole merry go round of players knocking on Wilders door starts again.
It's a tricky situation and not an easy one to get right, do we stick or twist.
My opinion is to carry on wot we're doing until hopefully we're an established PL club (maybe three years time) then we maybe start loosening the purse strings.
We'd all hate it if we blew it all after it's taken us sooooo long to get back to the top tier.

 

[bertieblade]

See Rnd as the logical back up to Enda or Jack Robinson did not do too badly although a bit limited going forward
Think we only went for Antonee as he had a daft name and was an absolute bargain price if he would have agreed terms

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Again I don't necessarily disagree. I think that recruitment is the weakest part of this otherwise excellent operation. Along with some undeniable successes, we've signed a lot of odd ducks, mediocrities and out and out failures. Off the top of my head, there's Chris Hussey, James Wilson, James Wilson jr, Lee Evans, Ched Evans, Ryan fucking Leonard, Ricky Holmes, Kean Bryan, Ravel Morrison, Jack Rodwell, Callum Robinson, Luke Freeman, Richario Zivkovic and Retsos Panos Retsos who have contributed little to nothing.

Lee Evans and Leonard were sold at a profit.
It's early to judge Robinson and Freeman.
Take out the freebies and loans and your left with Hussey, Holmes and Ched over 4 seasons.
Get a grip on your yourself.

 

[Guesty]

Lee Evans and Leonard were sold at a profit.
It's early to judge Robinson and Freeman.
Take out the freebies and loans and your left with Hussey, Holmes and Ched over 4 seasons.
Get a grip on your yourself.

So called freebies and loans aren't free though, are they? They cost wages and, this season, take up squad places. I'm also not so sure it is too early to judge Robinson and Freeman as I suspect one or other may well have left by the end of the window. And as I say, we broke our transfer record for both of them and got what, a goal and a couple of assists between the pair of them?

The recruitment has been fine, it's helped us get us from League One to the Premier League. But it has been far from perfect, on a handful of occasions bafflingly so.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

So called freebies and loans aren't free though, are they? They cost wages and, this season, take up squad places. I'm also not so sure it is too early to judge Robinson and Freeman as I suspect one or other may well have left by the end of the window. And as I say, we broke our transfer record for both of them and got what, a goal and a couple of assists between the pair of them?

The recruitment has been fine, it's helped us get us from League One to the Premier League. But it has been far from perfect, on a handful of occasions bafflingly so.

Can you provide any examples of clubs that have perfect recruitment?

 

[Guesty]

Can you provide any examples of clubs that have perfect recruitment?

No, nor did I claim anyone's was. But I suspect we were the only Championship team that thought paying a fee for Ched Evans was a good idea, and the only Premier League team that would even consider giving Ravel Morrison gainful employment. Hence 'far from' perfect.

 

[bertieblade]

But it is not a perfect world!
It is a world primarily successful for those who make the least mistakes

 

[EddieColquhoun]

No, nor did I claim anyone's was. But I suspect we were the only Championship team that thought paying a fee for Ched Evans was a good idea, and the only Premier League team that would even consider giving Ravel Morrison gainful employment. Hence 'far from' perfect.

The only Championship team to give McGoldrick a contract, helping us earn £132m from the Prem this year. Recycling the Ched debate and moaning about Ravel's 5 months at the club seems a little petty.

 

[Guesty]

The only Championship team to give McGoldrick a contract, helping us earn £132m from the Prem this year. Recycling the Ched debate and moaning about Ravel's 5 months at the club seems a little petty.

Rodwell then. Ben Woodburn, who I forgot previously. James 'I want to be first choice at Manchester United Wilson. Ricky Holmes. Plenty of unambiguous failures there, to go along with the successes of Fleck, O'Connell, Baldock, Stevens, McGoldrick, Egan etc.

Our recruitment has been fine, nothing more. It is not the main reason for our recent success. However an upturn is required if we want to build on that success, or even preserve it.

 

[Houso]

Rodwell then. Ben Woodburn, who I forgot previously. James 'I want to be first choice at Manchester United Wilson. Ricky Holmes. Plenty of unambiguous failures there, to go along with the successes of Fleck, O'Connell, Baldock, Stevens, McGoldrick, Egan etc.

Our recruitment has been fine, nothing more. It is not the main reason for our recent success. However an upturn is required if we want to build on that success, or even preserve it.

I think our recruitment a couple of seasons ago was incredible.

There have of course been a couple of clunkers that didn't work out, but really they're massively outnumbered by the players who contributed to our promotions and top half finish last season.

That said, I think we maybe fell a little short last season.

 

[Booker4]

I haven't accused Wilder of signing anyone. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned his name in this conversation. Whether a player was signed by McCabe, the Prince, Bettis or Wilder doesn't matter, I'm talking about the whole operation.

Other than Ched, all the others are Wilder signings to my understanding. The rest of them are involved in getting the players here, or in Mitchel's case identifying/scouting players so Mitchell is more involved in that regard, but ultimately its Wilder's decision to sign players. Stephen Bettis doesn't decide who we buy, nor the Prince, although he presumably decides the budget. I'm not saying you're having a big go at Wilder but Wilder makes the signings so if they don't come off, and they're odd ducks, then I would say you're criticising Wilder more than anyone else. That's your prerogative, I just don't agree that our recruitment needs to improve. I think Wilder and the whole process is working well, its just the demographics of the budget, the size of the club and where we're at.

Most of the players you mentioned are cheap, free transfers or players from the league One days as I said when the budget meant you're more likely to sign average players more often. Freeman was a record signing but he was £4m ish - not exactly a high risk and as I said Fleck kept him out of the side and also the change to more of a flat midfield three. Robinson had his moments tbf and I think we'll have no problem shifting him on, maybe with a small loss but maybe we'll break even or even sell at a small profit. I think you're looking for a reality that doesn't exist. Its all about opinions Guetsy, not trying to have a go, just a difference of opinion.

Also Guetsy, re the more recent signings, the higher we go up the football pyramid the harder it is to get players who improve us for the budget we have. Therefore its far more likely that we'll have players who don't get in the first team here that still cost decent money, like Freeman and Robinson, but it doesn't mean that they're failures.

You mention Rodwell and Morrison also, they cost comparatively nothing and were only on short contracts - what's the issue?! Rodwell's provided cover no more. Retsos and Zivkovic again low money loan signings who provided cover and we've decided not to sign them.

 

[Kanye]

Some very good points Kanye. For very differing reasons, it could perhaps be argued that Brentford, Peterborough, Liverpool, Chelsea, Southampton and Man City all have better recruitment models in place than Utd. CW has obviously worked wonders in getting a team from mid L1 to top 10 Prem in 4 season - a feat unlikely to be repeated for a long time (if ever!), especially without a big budget as a key enabler. A number of players recruited at L1 level have been good enough to survive and even excel at Prem level, which is indeed testament to Utd's recruitment.

It's a great discussion and I like your examples.

Liverpool, City and Chelsea have better recruitment models in a sense they can both afford and attract better players. In terms of value though, I feel we blow all 3 out the water on a £/points comparison. Let's not forget that all 3 teams have several players in their starting line-up cost upwards of £50m. Their strategies are all the same: buy the best players (currently/potentially), which work for them, but wouldn't work for us.

Southampton have historically had very good recruitment, and to a great extent, they still do. However, the fact is that our squad cost much less than theirs, yet finished 2 places above them.

Brentford and Peterborough are justifiably considered amongst the best clubs in terms of player recruitment in the country. Both clubs are excellent at identifying talent. The models work extremely well from a financial point of view, but how do they compare in terms of results on the pitch? Peterborough must have made millions on players over the last decade, but in terms of league finishes, their stagnant at best. Brentford's statistical model has been very successful for them, and I'm sure it will continue to bear fruit. Is it better than our own though? We have certainly overtaken them on the pitch.

The fact that we're in the conversation proves the point I was trying to make to Guesty
Let's not forget either that all the clubs mentioned above sign plenty of duds themselves.

However, the biggest weakness in Utd's recruitment, accentuated by the club's rise through the leagues, is at academy/ U23 age whereby the top talent understandably choose Cat 1 Academies in the area. The result is no prospects being generated that are anywhere near 1st team level. It sounds as though this issue is being addressed though. Personally, I think this will be crucial if the club is to once again create a production line of talent. I'd also like the club to start speculating on lower league and foreign based players with a view to loaning them out and then, hopefully, reaping the rewards of their development.

This is definitely a separate argument and I completely agree, we can and should do more in terms of recruiting young players and improving the academy, I think the signs are good that we're doing both.

 

[BrisBlade]

A bit off topic, but seeing as he's mentioned here, apparently Rodwell was at training. Could just be letting him train with us for fitness, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him offered a short term deal. Was in the squad consistently at the end of last season and we need cover / competition at RCB. Not saying it's good or bad thing. Haven't seen enough of him in red and white to make a call on that as Bash has been so consistent in that spot.

 

[SufcBilly]

A bit off topic, but seeing as he's mentioned here, apparently Rodwell was at training. Could just be letting him train with us for fitness, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him offered a short term deal. Was in the squad consistently at the end of last season and we need cover / competition at RCB. Not saying it's good or bad thing. Haven't seen enough of him in red and white to make a call on that as Bash has been so consistent in that spot.

I Suspect our RCB search has hit a brick wall, Worrall at forest wants first team football which he wont get over our player of the year, Cabango has all gone quiet (although im not sure if we were ever in for him)

 

[Withington Blade]

It's a great discussion and I like your examples.

Liverpool, City and Chelsea have better recruitment models in a sense they can both afford and attract better players. In terms of value though, I feel we blow all 3 out the water on a £/points comparison. Let's not forget that all 3 teams have several players in their starting line-up cost upwards of £50m. Their strategies are all the same: buy the best players (currently/potentially), which work for them, but wouldn't work for us.

Southampton have historically had very good recruitment, and to a great extent, they still do. However, the fact is that our squad cost much less than theirs, yet finished 2 places above them.

Brentford and Peterborough are justifiably considered amongst the best clubs in terms of player recruitment in the country. Both clubs are excellent at identifying talent. The models work extremely well from a financial point of view, but how do they compare in terms of results on the pitch? Peterborough must have made millions on players over the last decade, but in terms of league finishes, their stagnant at best. Brentford's statistical model has been very successful for them, and I'm sure it will continue to bear fruit. Is it better than our own though? We have certainly overtaken them on the pitch.

The fact that we're in the conversation proves the point I was trying to make to Guesty
Let's not forget either that all the clubs mentioned above sign plenty of duds themselves.



This is definitely a separate argument and I completely agree, we can and should do more in terms of recruiting young players and improving the academy, I think the signs are good that we're doing both.

Agree Kanye. The recruitment from the likes of City and Liverpool has been impressive, although I’d argue it is a great deal easier when you have a mature scouting network covering every corner of the globe and the ability to outbid every other competing club on wages and fees.

As somebody said earlier, the difficulty we have is we are trying to improve our starting 11on a tight budget - it’s really, really hard to do. We’re not able to buy established premier league players so we’re having to look down the leagues, or to a lessor extent, abroad.

Buying unproven talent comes with a sizeable degree of risk. Some work out and some don’t. CW has always been very decisive and is quick to move players on those who unfortunately don’t make the grade and he has generally dine this without losing money. In the circumstances I think our recruitment has been excellent.

 

[CrookesBlade]

Other than Ched, all the others are Wilder signings to my understanding. The rest of them are involved in getting the players here, or in Mitchel's case identifying/scouting players so Mitchell is more involved in that regard, but ultimately its Wilder's decision to sign players. Stephen Bettis doesn't decide who we buy, nor the Prince, although he presumably decides the budget. I'm not saying you're having a big go at Wilder but Wilder makes the signings so if they don't come off, and they're odd ducks, then I would say you're criticising Wilder more than anyone else. That's your prerogative, I just don't agree that our recruitment needs to improve. I think Wilder and the whole process is working well, its just the demographics of the budget, the size of the club and where we're at.

Most of the players you mentioned are cheap, free transfers or players from the league One days as I said when the budget meant you're more likely to sign average players more often. Freeman was a record signing but he was £4m ish - not exactly a high risk and as I said Fleck kept him out of the side and also the change to more of a flat midfield three. Robinson had his moments tbf and I think we'll have no problem shifting him on, maybe with a small loss but maybe we'll break even or even sell at a small profit. I think you're looking for a reality that doesn't exist. Its all about opinions Guetsy, not trying to have a go, just a difference of opinion.

Also Guetsy, re the more recent signings, the higher we go up the football pyramid the harder it is to get players who improve us for the budget we have. Therefore its far more likely that we'll have players who don't get in the first team here that still cost decent money, like Freeman and Robinson, but it doesn't mean that they're failures.

You mention Rodwell and Morrison also, they cost comparatively nothing and were only on short contracts - what's the issue?! Rodwell's provided cover no more. Retsos and Zivkovic again low money loan signings who provided cover and we've decided not to sign them.

I think I’ve said it on here before but if you go from 8th in League One to 9th in the Prem in 4 years spending 50 million in the process then your recruitment by definition is nothing less than first rate.

If you recruit badly you’ll find yourself with an underwhelming league position, a massive unsustainable wage bill or an ageing/permanently injured squad. We don’t have any of these problems.

Wilder is a victim of his own success to an extent as some fans will look at signings like Lee Evans, Luke Freeman etc as mistakes when if it wasn’t for other players he’s signed hitting unimaginable heights they’d have played more minutes and be classed as solid signings.

He’s signed a few that haven’t worked out but name me a manager who hasn’t.

 

[Adiroy]

The best thing about wilder i spose is if one of his signings turns out not to be what he expected he wont just blindly go along with playing them every week! He tried to fill Duffys boots more than once but we ended up putting him back in after a few games when they wernt up to his standard!