VAR VAR

[Bladesman]

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

I'm not sticking to that as a characterisation. I apologise. I hope you'll see in the rest of that post that I have no axe with Lino Flaggers. And, I'd be happy with Lino Flag myself. Sorry.

No worries Phil. And apologies if my tone was terse. This weekend has pissed so many people off ...

 

[Toronto Blade]

If they insist on keeping the damn thing instead of lines and angles put the cameras on a rail track like the rabbit at a dog race.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

It's clearly the var operator that's clicking on areas. Only from.this point are the lines drawn.

So you're still relying on the initial click to be in the correct spot.

I do not know for certain. But, I think that you're right & that probably IS the case. The VAR operator "saying" (by clicking) try his shoulder, try his knee, try his head. But, the VAR operator is doing that "neutrally" trying to get the "best/worst" point of the body nearest the goal line. I'm NOT supporting that. I'm just trying to take it apart & find out why people really feel it's inaccurate & "all human intervention"

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Still believe that no matter how accurate it is, there is no need for VAR in the game.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

If they insist on keeping the damn thing instead of lines and angles put the cameras on a rail track like the rabbit at a dog race.

I'm a Big Fan of the sheer comedy value of this. They'd need a separate rail track for each player & the ball. I'd love to see that in action. I'll be honest, watching that would be better than watching the game.

 

[Freddy Dunning-Kruger]

I dont get the angles that are shown - why is the camera angle skewed. Why cannot it not be straight - in line as you ask a linesman to be?

You'd need to install a lot more cameras to do that, e.g. one every yard, looking across the pitch.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

I do not know for certain. But, I think that you're right & that probably IS the case. The VAR operator "saying" (by clicking) try his shoulder, try his knee, try his head. But, the VAR operator is doing that "neutrally" trying to get the "best/worst" point of the body nearest the goal line. I'm NOT supporting that. I'm just trying to take it apart & find out why people really feel it's inaccurate & "all human intervention"

Yeah I think because they cant 100 percent guarantee with the images they have that the spot they've clicked on is accurate. That's before were talking frame rates etc.

The initial offside rule was for.clear daylight to be between the attacker and last man. Giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt.

They've played with the offside rule so.often.over the last couple of decades, nobody knows what the rules are anymore.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Haha, I literally said the same the other day.



Surely every fan is saying the same thing up and down the country, it has to change.

Has to change or there'll honestly be some really nasty scenes towards the end of the season.

One thing I've said since the beginning of this season when it became clear VAR was a farce, whoever goes down, if they're close, they're going to sue the Premier League to the tune of £100m. It's costing teams vital points, which eventually will cost teams a place in the league.

When it was human error, it was shit but you accepted it. When you install what's supposed to be an infallible failsafe and it doesn't work, it's misconduct.

Hope they've got their lawyers ready.

There would be every chance that the sueing, relegated club had voted for VAR in the first place & would be sueing 1/20th of themself. Again, glorious entertainment.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Fuck VAR

 

[jaybee]

Here's an explanation of how offside is done with Hawk-Eye https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423

"The positioning of the crosshair is manual with a line one-pixel wide so that the exact position of the offside line and the relevant body part can be accurately identified by the VAR."

and

"Hawk-Eye can also use any broadcast camera to identify the point of contact with the ball by the attacker, and synchronises all cameras for this purpose.

The broadcast cameras operate with 50 frames per second, so the point of contact with the ball is one of those frames inside the 50 per second."

If on a particular offside decision they're using a broadcast camera to ID when the ball was kicked then the sample rate isn't high enough for a 1 pixel line to be accurate.

It's clear as mud if the actual Hawk-Eye cameras have a higher frame rate.

 

[Rob86]

Let’s hope the ‘evens itself out’ comments come true by the end of the season.

We’ve just got to keep at it and hope that our luck turns. That negative net score isn’t because players have made poor decisions in the build up to goals, it’s just unbelievably unlucky.

Maybe we need to adapt a bit and delay forward runs, it'll be difficult for players who’ve been told to play off the shoulder though and may see us create less clear chances. But, it’d avoid this.

There’s a bit more to these marginal calls that just getting the right decision as it can negatively affect a team mentally. Fortunately, Southampton aside, I can’t recall a VAR decision against us that has deflated us and swung the momentum of the game.

 

[bromtom]

There would be every chance that the sueing, relegated club had voted for VAR in the first place & would be sueing 1/20th of themself. Again, glorious entertainment.

Had to get a majority of 14 and I don't think the Prem disclosed the votes, so all we know is at least 14/20 voted for it, and 3 of 20 aren't even in the league anymore.

Could theoretically be that the three relegated teams wanted it, and the three promoted teams didn't get asked so if some of those goes down might get spicy.

I'm in favour of a VAR system that works. We don't really have one currently.

They should rebrand it 'second look' or 'referee assistance system' or something, and just let the on pitch official look at everything. It's the men in a box miles away that's making it a farce.

Pipe the replays to the screen, let the ref decide and change the rules where you can to prioritise the game, not geometry.

 

[anglian blade]

I've got to measure up for some new roller blinds in the morning. Anybody own a flag they can come around and wave so I can get a vague idea of the width I'll need.

The lines are drawn by computer. But the computer draws many lines. As an example.....
The computer does not know whether the attacker's head or his knee is nearer the goal line. So, the computer will test that.
The computer will drop a virtual plumb line from the attacker's head to the pitch. And then draw a virtual line at pitch level on that (head) point. The computer will then drop a virtual plumb line from the attacker's knee to the pitch. And then draw a virtual line at pitch level on that (knee) point. The computer may also draw a few more lines to determine which is closer to the goal line. And, then.... the defender.
It's the computer drawing lines to find out the correct virtual line to draw across the pitch. I get it. I get it. I get it. Human intervention is subjective & no better than Lino Flag. But, the computer is drawing the lines. Really.....

The problem with all the lines is that VAR has effectively changed the offside law, Without VAR a player would not be offside if he was level with the last defender. Now if any part of him is ahead VAR says he is offside. So to actually be level with the defender the attacker would have to have the same shape ,and the same body position as the defender, the chances of which are probably in the millions to one.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Why is anyone in favour of any VAR system? Even a perfect system kills goal celebrating. I just don't get it. Is "the right decision" that important? Why do you care so much about that part?

 

[Groucho Blade]

Mousset was interfering, he got the ball and was offside.

It's not 'subjectivity'.

It’s totally subjective. That’s the whole problem.

 

[bromtom]

Here's an explanation of how offside is done with Hawk-Eye https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423

"The positioning of the crosshair is manual with a line one-pixel wide so that the exact position of the offside line and the relevant body part can be accurately identified by the VAR."

and

"Hawk-Eye can also use any broadcast camera to identify the point of contact with the ball by the attacker, and synchronises all cameras for this purpose.

The broadcast cameras operate with 50 frames per second, so the point of contact with the ball is one of those frames inside the 50 per second."

If on a particular offside decision they're using a broadcast camera to ID when the ball was kicked then the sample rate isn't high enough for a 1 pixel line to be accurate.

It's clear as mud if the actual Hawk-Eye cameras have a higher frame rate.

The Hawkeye goal line cameras are high speed, but are they what they use for offsides? Surely not due to the angle.

Also, having just looked up Hawkeye, there's a 3.6mm margin of error. So even that can be questioned.

 

[metalblade]

The trouble with drawing all these silly lines is a thin line on a TV screen means a line 6inch wide on the pitch then you have camera blur what makes players feet look size 15, then you have to guess when the ball is kicked by the passer or is it when it leaves his foot it can never be accurate 100%. All that has changed is the ref is now sat in a room away from the stadium still favouring the big clubs rather than the one on the pitch. All this shit to be around 5% more accurate than humans, is it really worth it to stop the game for 3-4 minutes which in itself says to everyone it is not clear and obvious that the ref has got it wrong. Just taking the joy out of football, leave goal line technology and use VAR for stopping cheats, diving and checking red cards but FFS leave offside down to the linesmen and ref's.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

The Hawkeye goal line cameras are high speed, but are they what they use for offsides? Surely not due to the angle.

Also, having just looked up Hawkeye, there's a 3.6mm margin of error. So even that can be questioned.

Thank you. There is a lot of controversy & guesswork about the Hawkeye margin of error. Have you got a link you can post to that 3.66mm assessment?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

The clubs voted for VAR. The Premier League rules & regs are all voted on by the clubs. If a manager/coach doesn't want VAR, all he has to do is persuade his Chairman to table the vote & vote against VAR at the end of the season. Come at me with your WhatAboutEry.....

Might be stuck with it until May but being stuck with it doesn't stop it being horseshit.

 

[Joeblades1]

Its basically bringing the game into disrepute its far too muddled to many grey areas its killing the game already but its also showing up the refs in most cases as incompetent Like to know the difference in goals from last season to this in the prem its an entertainment business its sport not a computer game. Is fucking depressing doing my head in tbh.
What was farcial for me was city players were wanting goal disallowed anyway saying aguero had been mandlehandled other end of pitch where do you draw the line so to speak fucking mental

 

[jaybee]

Thank you. There is a lot of controversy & guesswork about the Hawkeye margin of error. Have you got a link you can post to that 3.66mm assessment?

I’ve seen the 3.6mm with reference to the cricket system, I don’t know if it relates to what’s used in footy

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Souness Law will come in at the end of the season latest and common sense will prevail. Even Dermot Gallagher agrees who shared sympathy with us for Moose's disallowed goal. So if refs, players, managers, fans and pundits aren't happy there must be a change.

VAR is the correct way to go, the way it's currently used on offside decisions is not.

There has to be daylight between defender and attacker to change the refs call even if obviously wrong.

The final say MUST stay on the pitch, even if wrong.

Also have 2 challenges per side and if you're right don't lose a challenge.

Owt else and especially in it's current format is just horseshit.

 

[bromtom]

Thank you. There is a lot of controversy & guesswork about the Hawkeye margin of error. Have you got a link you can post to that 3.66mm assessment?

It was just Wikipedia, but bit more digging and this times of India article on Hawkeye in tennis says a bit about the types of camera (500fps footage) and gives that figure.

Hawk-Eye: A decade of accuracy | Tennis News - Times of India

Tennis News: With an admittedly 3.6 mm margin of error, the system which has now entered into its 10th year in the sport, may be loved or loathed, but either way i

m.timesofindia.com

I think Hawkeye technology is consistent across sports but accept that it might not be.

I'd be more accepting of the marginal calls for offside if they were using 500fps footage, but they're trying to mug us off with 50fps as though football fans couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to understand frame rates.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Here's an explanation of how offside is done with Hawk-Eye https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423

"The positioning of the crosshair is manual with a line one-pixel wide so that the exact position of the offside line and the relevant body part can be accurately identified by the VAR."

and

"Hawk-Eye can also use any broadcast camera to identify the point of contact with the ball by the attacker, and synchronises all cameras for this purpose.

The broadcast cameras operate with 50 frames per second, so the point of contact with the ball is one of those frames inside the 50 per second."

If on a particular offside decision they're using a broadcast camera to ID when the ball was kicked then the sample rate isn't high enough for a 1 pixel line to be accurate.

It's clear as mud if the actual Hawk-Eye cameras have a higher frame rate.

All horseshit.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Let’s hope the ‘evens itself out’ comments come true by the end of the season.

We’ve just got to keep at it and hope that our luck turns. That negative net score isn’t because players have made poor decisions in the build up to goals, it’s just unbelievably unlucky.

Maybe we need to adapt a bit and delay forward runs, it'll be difficult for players who’ve been told to play off the shoulder though and may see us create less clear chances. But, it’d avoid this.

There’s a bit more to these marginal calls that just getting the right decision as it can negatively affect a team mentally. Fortunately, Southampton aside, I can’t recall a VAR decision against us that has deflated us and swung the momentum of the game.

I thought the VAR against Watford, whilst clearly offside took that long we'd lost our momentum by the time the dicks had looked at it forty times.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Why is anyone in favour of any VAR system? Even a perfect system kills goal celebrating. I just don't get it. Is "the right decision" that important? Why do you care so much about that part?

I'll take that one. I'm more "neutral" on VAR than "in favour". If we're to persist with an offside law. We could scrap it all together of course. Then we have to have a way of judging offside. Lino doing their best to keep up with play. Looking two ways at once. To see the point the ball is kicked. And to see who is in line. And then using the ultra modern communication tool of whacking a flag up. That's one clearly imperfect way. No worries. I'm neutral on that. I won't lose my shit if they get it wrong. Video judgement, based on maths & trig. Judgement call on which frame to use for ball on foot. Bit of computer fiddling to find whether it's head or knee. And then a different communication tool, on the video screen. That's another somewhat imperfect way. No worries. I'm neutral on that. I won't lose my shit if they get it wrong. I'm capable of celebrating goals at different points. I can't be anything other than honest. I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about celebrating, only to see it overturned.
A nagging feeling that Video Technology longer term is the way forward. Been to a lot of FIFA & UEFA Tournaments & seen it working "for years". I'm just OK with it. Not "get fucking" anyone who doesn't like it. And, if we have Lino Flag, I'll be OK with that as well. Just OK......

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I’ve seen the 3.6mm with reference to the cricket system, I don’t know if it relates to what’s used in footy

Aaahhh I see. There are a lot more "moving parts" in football.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

It was just Wikipedia, but bit more digging and this times of India article on Hawkeye in tennis says a bit about the types of camera (500fps footage) and gives that figure.

Hawk-Eye: A decade of accuracy | Tennis News - Times of India

Tennis News: With an admittedly 3.6 mm margin of error, the system which has now entered into its 10th year in the sport, may be loved or loathed, but either way i

m.timesofindia.com

I think Hawkeye technology is consistent across sports but accept that it might not be.

I'd be more accepting of the marginal calls for offside if they were using 500fps footage, but they're trying to mug us off with 50fps as though football fans couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to understand frame rates.

Can I ask, as I don't understand, is the frame rate point just related to "what frame you choose"? Or is there a frame rate problem AFTER you've chosen your frame.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I'll take that one. I'm more "neutral" on VAR than "in favour". If we're to persist with an offside law. We could scrap it all together of course. Then we have to have a way of judging offside. Lino doing their best to keep up with play. Looking two ways at once. To see the point the ball is kicked. And to see who is in line. And then using the ultra modern communication tool of whacking a flag up. That's one clearly imperfect way. No worries. I'm neutral on that. I won't lose my shit if they get it wrong. Video judgement, based on maths & trig. Judgement call on which frame to use for ball on foot. Bit of computer fiddling to find whether it's head or knee. And then a different communication tool, on the video screen. That's another somewhat imperfect way. No worries. I'm neutral on that. I won't lose my shit if they get it wrong. I'm capable of celebrating goals at different points. I can't be anything other than honest. I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about celebrating, only to see it overturned.
A nagging feeling that Video Technology longer term is the way forward. Been to a lot of FIFA & UEFA Tournaments & seen it working "for years". I'm just OK with it. Not "get fucking" anyone who doesn't like it. And, if we have Lino Flag, I'll be OK with that as well. Just OK......

Lino's flag it is then.