Perspective

[Jim Chimmerney]

Burnley.

Reading.

Barnsley.

So if we're going back as far as Barnsley that's 3 in about 15 years. I also happen to think that Burnley playing magnificent football last season is also greatly exaggerated.

 

[Micalijo]

Can I ask how many times you've seen Newcastle, Swansea, Forest, Norwich etc play this season ?

Success and results often give the picture that teams are playing good football and that's not always the case. Compare and contrast the football us and Reading played in 05/06, people will say we had a great season and the football was excellent but was it really for the most part ?

Anyway, Wigan and Martinez ?

Let's just clarify once and for all (because I know what you're thinking!!) that we were not lucky to go up in 05/06.

We had pace and experience, youth, hunger and energy, movement - everything you need to get 90 plus points in the CCC and everything (other than experience) we now lack.

The football wasn't Brazil stuff no and it got a bit messy after Xmas for 2 months but some of the stuff we played when Kabba was on song was exciting and effective.

 

[super_pig]

wigan? i didn't mention them.. but i will endulge your attempted sidetrack.. i believe that martinez has been brought in to change the style in an attempt to increase fan numbers (ring any bells)..he is only 6 months into it..
anyway i'll put the argument for you upsidedown.. man city have more money than man utd and barcelona put together. that being the case.. how come they're not in for hendo, quinny and monty then?

 

[super_pig]

>The football wasn't Brazil stuff no
compared to the current fare it seems like it was

 

[Nick Jansky]

So if we're going back as far as Barnsley that's 3 in about 15 years. I also happen to think that Burnley playing magnificent football last season is also greatly exaggerated.

But proves the point that it is possible to play nice football on a shoestring & get out of this division doing so.

I'm sure there must have been others, those 3 were straight off the top.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Let's just clarify once and for all (because I know what you're thinking!!) that we were not lucky to go up in 05/06.

We had pace and experience, youth, hunger and energy, movement - everything you need to get 90 plus points in the CCC and everything (other than experience) we now lack.

The football wasn't Brazil stuff no and it got a bit messy after Xmas for 2 months but some of the stuff we played when Kabba was on song was exciting and effective.

No mate, I was one of the ones shouting AGAINST those who said we were lucky !

As you say, we got the blend right, we were effective and the most consistent team in the division outside of 'head and shoulders above the rest' Reading. But along the way there were a few games, particularly early on when we got the rub of the green and the late winners which you don't always get.

My point is that people will look back on that season with great memories but was the standard of football entertaining to go back to the point ?

 

[super_pig]

the football doesn't need to be 'nice'.. you have to retain posesssion. for that you need players who can control the ball and pick out a pass.. if you have the same point of attack then it is easy to defend against.. sorry.. i sound like keith edwards.. i'm sure he reads my posts! ;-)

 

[Micalijo]

No mate, I was one of the ones shouting AGAINST those who said we were lucky !

As you say, we got the blend right, we were effective and the most consistent team in the division outside of 'head and shoulders above the rest' Reading. But along the way there were a few games, particularly early on when we got the rub of the green and the late winners which you don't always get.

My point is that people will look back on that season with great memories but was the standard of football entertaining to go back to the point ?

Sorry - been a busy few days!!! Hard to keep up.

I do think overall the football was entertaining, very exciting at its best.

My opinion is that if Adebola had put Coventry 2 up at lane early on (after the awful defeat at QPR) we would have had problems. All of a sudden it clicked, but only after the late winners against Cov and PNE.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

the football doesn't need to be 'nice'.. you have to retain posesssion. for that you need players who can control the ball and pick out a pass.. if you have the same point of attack then it is easy to defend against.. sorry.. i sound like keith edwards.. i'm sure he reads my posts! ;-)

Which is why we were effective in 05/06, we had Jags galloping through the middle, the sublime skills of Tongy in the middle rolleyes, Quinny scoring and assisting from the left, Ifill doing the same from the right and good old HMS tapping them in. Add to that players like Kabs and Danny chipping in and we were a threat from all over the pitch. IMO, the only other time in the last 10 years when we've come close to the right blend was 02/03 and surprise, surprise, a (relatively) successful season.

This is why it's so frustrating to see the way KB sets up the midfield now. To me, a midfield of Yeates, Harper, Williamson and Ward gives us balance, width, experience and threat yet he insists on building a team around Monty and Squinny.

 

[Pinchy]

You know that when you start agreeing with Len (partially) that things can't be right (sorry len, had to say it).

As Linz said, I'm not calling for anyone's head, I just want some changes and I want to know how a seemingly good set up, is so full of holes and mistakes.

Last night I was livid, not particularly with defeat, we win more than we lose. But it was the nature of the defeat coming after we'd had a positive day on Monday, only to be kicked again later with the Kyle recall clause fiasco.

So whats changed? I remember a few months ago fiercely defending Blackie agains the likes of Micalijo, Ollesendro and Fiery. And generally still hold the view that Blackie was and is the right man. The problem is, we had excuses before, now we don't. We've allowed a transfer window to go by and we were promised spending, yet we've ended up with loans and the other loans being turned into Permanents.

Everything is short term, everything is planned for a season or two, there's no 5 year plan, theres random talk of promotion, but theres no ballsy push.

So do I want promotion at any expense? No, I want us to be sensible. I want us to show ambition to get permanent players in for 2-3 years not months.

As Season ticket holders we show our faith and support for a full season, if there were 5 year or 10 year season tickets available and we could afford them we'd no doubt buy them.

I just want the club to at least show the ambition to stick to its statements and allow me to see a vision beyond the end of May 2010.

And the odd thing is, if the club showed that to us, I think we'd get more fans going to games even if the football was shite.

Personally I won't be able to get to the lane until the end of feb as i'm still recovering from an op, but its now more than ever that I want to show my support for the club

I wish you a speedy and comfortable recovery:hug:

 

[Ted Danson]

I still think it's a non-argument, Darren. You have divorced the two in a completely artificial way. It's rather like saying that if the food tastes good, I don't care how it's cooked. There is a connection.

Just who has won promotion or trophies without entertaining the fans then? Anyone?

George Grahams boring boring Arsenal?

 

[Silent Blade]

Just who has won promotion or trophies without entertaining the fans then? Anyone?

Helenio Herrera (Inter Milan manager in the 1960s) won a lot of trophies as his teams played very defensively. The system was called the Catenaccio. Many Italian clubs copied Herrera's style and won trophies. I admire what Sir Alf Ramsey did for Ipswich and England but his system (wingless) was more defensive minded than the system used by previous England teams. Ron Saunders who won trophies with Villa was a defensive minded type of manager and so was George Graham of Arsenal. Mourinho at Chelsea was another one too.

Stan Cullis at Wolves and Howard Wilkinson at L**ds had success with the long ball tactics. Graham Taylor, Graham Turner, Dave Bassett and Neil Warnock gained promotion success with the long ball style

Bill Shankly, Matt Busby, Jock Stein, Bob Paisley, Brian Clough, Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wegner (the last two had plenty of money to spend) won trophies playing "entertaining football"

 

[Pinchy]

The wretched 'long ball' was found out quite a long time ago. The only justification this aesthetic paralysis ever had was that it was effective. It isn't now, thank the Pele.

Only a dinosaur would contemplate such a system nowadays... Sorry, Blacko, didn't realise you were there.

 

[Railway Blade]

If you re- arranged the league table in terms the purity of football (top) to the sheer ugly long ball with no passing ability (bottom) the likes of West Brom and Swansea would be near the top and we would be adrift at the bottom and already relegated.

Even the likes of Blackpool, who have got bugger all resources play better football than us.

 

[SE1Blade]

But football isn't really an "entrtainment business" like other entertainment businesses. As has been pointed out ad nauseuma if BBC1 consistently showed crap programmes, you would stop watching it and watch ITV; if your local cinema kept puuting on rubbish films you would stop going; if your favourite Indian restaurant started serving undercooked, overpriced food, you would get your curries elsewhere etc etc etc.

If United play rubbish, you don't think sod it and support Wednesday. People support one club, stick to them and want them to do well. That means results rather than performance matter. If United got promoted playing ugly football and grinding out results is there anyone who would be moaning?

Unfortunately Darren they would. I remember many posters wanted Warnock sacked all the way through the promotion season and due to either blind stubbornness or plain trolling, still weren't happy when we finally clinched promotion with four games still to play.

I'm firmly in the camp of "I don't care how we play as long as we win". A scrappy 1-0 win beats a 3-3 draw any day of the week for me.

I went last night and we were crap, but if we finish where we are now at the end of the season Blackie would have done an amazing job under the circumstances, regardless of exactly how we got there.

Stoke were the ugliest team ever to get promoted to the top flight with the style of play they played. Do you think their fans care about that now??

Would I swap places with them? Too right I would. And they're only Stoke!

 

[Fiery Blade]

Last night our first shot on target came in the 89th minute and my granny could have saved it!
We will finish mid table at best
Can't believe you think we will get in the play offs!

 

[Isiah]

Excellent thread with some very good arguments being made.

I'm not a Blackwell fan, I think he is very limited in his tactical and man management skills, but don't think you need a managerial giant to achieve a play off place in what is a very mediocre league.

That said I do not think, given the choice, that Blackwell would try to build a team around loanees as he has been forced to do this season. I do not think he would choose to sell quite so many of his better players, though I believe he accepts, as do most on this board, the commercial need to sell some. I think that, if sell we must, he would hope to receive more of the proceeds than has been the case for some time now for re-investment.

I think he would hope for a better system - if that's not too strong a word for it - for dealing with both incoming and particularly outgoing transfers at the club. Could we not, for example, begin negotiations on contract renewal at a much earlier stage with our better players so that if they show a reluctance to stay we can sell them for what they are worth rather than what we can get in a fire sale?

There's no doubt that Blackwell is a part of the current problem, and a significant part at that, but it ain't all down to him.

 

[Rustyblade]

"George Grahams boring boring Arsenal?"

"Stan Cullis at Wolves and Howard Wilkinson at L**ds had success with the long ball tactics. Graham Taylor, Graham Turner, Dave Bassett and Neil Warnock gained promotion success with the long ball style"


Sorry guys but I'm not having that. You're moving the goalposts. My question referenced entertainment, not a frigging word about long ball or any kind of style whatsoever. All the examples you use in some way entertained their fans, made the matchday experience a pleasant one. Did you get no entertainment whatsoever from following the Blades under Bassett and Warnock? Really?

And as for boring, boring Arsenal. Charlie George, Liam Brady, Anders Limpar, David Rocastle, Paul Merson, they've damn near always had someone you'd look forward to watching of a matchday.

 

[lenners]

The difference between the Bassett, in particular, and Warnock days is that we were always the underdog, producing results that defied the reality of our finances or the assorted criminal or trans-sexual elements in the boardroom.
Now, we are one of the best supported teams in the league, with a wage bill to match, and a settled ownership.
In that context, the expectations are reasonably higher.

 

[Darren]

Can I ask how many times you've seen Newcastle, Swansea, Forest, Norwich etc play this season ?

Success and results often give the picture that teams are playing good football and that's not always the case. Compare and contrast the football us and Reading played in 05/06, people will say we had a great season and the football was excellent but was it really for the most part ?

Anyway, Wigan and Martinez ?

The last two times we got promoted (1989/90 and 2005/06) I recall vividly people moaning about the quality of the football and how they couldn't believe we were where we were.

Just to recap - in 1989/90, we were in the top two throughout after the 4th game barring a brief blip in April and in 2005-06, there was only one game (the 3rd one) where we were not in the top two. For any other club, they would count as brilliant seasons. Not for some United fans apparently.

 

[Darren]

So what is your point Darren? Are you purely playing devils advocate or are you actually satisfied with the job that Kevin Blackwell is doing??

I'd be amazed if someone as knowledagble as you, who's follwed United through thick and thin, here there and everywhere is content with that shitethat KB serves up.

Talk about leading questions....

Compared to many previous seasons, what we are getting is not "shit". In the 80's, we used to dream of realistically challenging for promotion to the top flight, would have been a palace to us etc etc.

I am not satisfied in the sense that I would prefer it if we were in Newcastle's position. But the idea that Blackwell is in sacking territory is, as I say, pure fantasy.

 

[beightonblade]

Cheap as chips wont be sacked as long as McCabe is around ....... they deserve each other.

However should a new owner/investor appear ....... mmmmm........

 

[Foxy]

But the idea that Blackwell is in sacking territory is, as I say, pure fantasy.

Again though, in the 80's this would have been the case in the vast majority of peoples eyes, these days you get no time at all.

 

[lenners]

Talk about leading questions....

Compared to many previous seasons, what we are getting is not "shit". In the 80's, we used to dream of realistically challenging for promotion to the top flight, would have been a palace to us etc etc.

I am not satisfied in the sense that I would prefer it if we were in Newcastle's position. But the idea that Blackwell is in sacking territory is, as I say, pure fantasy.

But Darren, you talked about perspective.
How does the SUFC of the 80s compare to the one today?

 

[montysbarmyarmy]

If we get promoted we will down by christmas with players we have and those blackwell will sign . getting promoted in this poor division does not make us a good team

 

[Darren]

But Darren, you talked about perspective.
How does the SUFC of the 80s compare to the one today?

Depends which bit of the 80's you are talking about.

80-81 with the 4-0 defeats at Newport, the regular losses of two goal leads, the joys of Martin Peters and missed penalties seeing us relegated to the 4th tier?

Or 87-88, with Billy McEwan, Andy Leaning's "goalkeeping", 5-0 defeats at home to Oldham, conceding 5 and 6 at Leeds and Middlesbrough, Wally Downes 2 sending offs in 4 games and relegation to the 3rd tier?

Or even 86-87 for McEwan's patented insomnia cure, where crowds of less than 8000 were normal and where only 6647 turned up for a Tuesday night game bv Palace?

Happy days

 

[Foxy]

If we get promoted we will down by christmas with players we have and those blackwell will sign . getting promoted in this poor division does not make us a good team

Many people said we'd never get promoted under Warnock, that we'd be down before christmas when we did actually go up.

Getting promoted in this poor division is exactly the aim, if we did manage it, we are then in a position to rebuild with an healthier structure and even in the event of instant relegation would be in a stronger position than we are right now.

 

[Linz]

If we get promoted we will down by christmas with players we have and those blackwell will sign . getting promoted in this poor division does not make us a good team

If that's the case, you should be happy that it appears we're trying not to get promoted...

 

[lenners]

Depends which bit of the 80's you are talking about.

80-81 with the 4-0 defeats at Newport, the regular losses of two goal leads, the joys of Martin Peters and missed penalties seeing us relegated to the 4th tier?

Or 87-88, with Billy McEwan, Andy Leaning's "goalkeeping", 5-0 defeats at home to Oldham, conceding 5 and 6 at Leeds and Middlesbrough, Wally Downes 2 sending offs in 4 games and relegation to the 3rd tier?

Or even 86-87 for McEwan's patented insomnia cure, where crowds of less than 8000 were normal and where only 6647 turned up for a Tuesday night game bv Palace?

Happy days

Exactly...
Great end to the decade though. Some of the best times as a Blade.

 

[alcoblade]

I wonder if McCabe isnt going for loan signings to limit his exposure in what he sees as the coming football recession? After all, hes just had his fingers burned when the asset price bubble in property burst, maybe hes trying to avoid the same thing happening when the football bubble goes pop?

I think you're right here. I think footballers wages are about to go pop, in the wrong direction for them. And about time too. But that suggests it's not the time to be handing out contracts.

If we can start next season with a new manager and a clean ish slate on the pitch, it might all be worth it.

UTB