Perspective

[Darren]

I didn't go last night, but can well accept that it was the horror show everyone says it was.

Notwithstanding this, anyone who thinks Blackwell will be sacked on the basis of 2 defeats and 2 bad performances is living in a fantasy world. The guy has - throughout his time at the Lane - kept us consistently challenging for at least a play off place, which probably satisfies his minimum job requirement.

Interestingly, a lot of the hostility to KB seems to be based on the style we play rather than results as such. I can't recall a manager ever being sacked because he played ugly football.

Lastly, there was a poll on here the other week, following our 1 defeat in 11 run, where around 2/3 said they were happy with the current situation. Now, 2 defeats later, everyone is suicidal. There are more mood swings in this place than in the World Conference of Bipolar Disorder Sufferers

 

[lenners]

I didn't go last night, but can well accept that it was the horror show everyone says it was.

Notwithstanding this, anyone who thinks Blackwell will be sacked on the basis of 2 defeats and 2 bad performances is living in a fantasy world. The guy has - throughout his time at the Lane - kept us consistently challenging for at least a play off place, which probably satisfies his minimum job requirement.

Interestingly, a lot of the hostility to KB seems to be based on the style we play rather than results as such. I can't recall a manager ever being sacked because he played ugly football.

Lastly, there was a poll on here the other week, following our 1 defeat in 11 run, where around 2/3 said they were happy with the current situation. Now, 2 defeats later, everyone is suicidal. There are more mood swings in this place than in the World Conference of Bipolar Disorder Sufferers

That doesn't really give the full perspective though.
Since then we have lost our best two defenders without whom Blackwell cannot operate the only system he knows.
Essentially, the season is pretty much over without significant investment in quality loanees and I can't see the point in Blackwell hanging around now.
McCabe gave him the insurance of another year because he knew what was coming and Blackwell can go with a reasonable pay-off.
Rebuilding and a new playing culture cannot be achieved with Blackwell as manager.
It would be commercial suicide to continue as we are.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I didn't go last night, but can well accept that it was the horror show everyone says it was.

Notwithstanding this, anyone who thinks Blackwell will be sacked on the basis of 2 defeats and 2 bad performances is living in a fantasy world. The guy has - throughout his time at the Lane - kept us consistently challenging for at least a play off place, which probably satisfies his minimum job requirement.

Interestingly, a lot of the hostility to KB seems to be based on the style we play rather than results as such. I can't recall a manager ever being sacked because he played ugly football.
Lastly, there was a poll on here the other week, following our 1 defeat in 11 run, where around 2/3 said they were happy with the current situation. Now, 2 defeats later, everyone is suicidal. There are more mood swings in this place than in the World Conference of Bipolar Disorder Sufferers

Wasn't Iain Dowie sacked for just playing ugly?

Great post Darren, by the way! Perspective is the right title. By all accounts last night was the worst performance for several years, yes the football is generally appaling to watch, yes we are battening down the hatches and are in survival mode as a club (which means plenty out and few in), yes, the promises that fired so many up after the Palace promotion party have not appeared, yes Blackwell looks like a tit after any interview. But the next 6-12 months are going to be a very, very bumpy ride for the whole of football and Palace, Pompey, Cardiff, Notts County are just the beginning of some terrible times!

 

[Linz]

I think some people are just unhappy though Dazzer. I think it was Swissblade that said last night that he wasn't blaming anyone nor calling for Blackwell's head, just desperate for some kind of change that will give us fans something to actually drag ourselves to the games for. I'm just grumpy and want to whinge about it. Not quite at the boycotting stage yet though... got my tickets for the next three away matches already.

It is depressing around the Lane at the minute. We're crap. Worse than that, we're boring. And everyone to do with the football side seems to have run out of ideas.

At least Jose Mourinho was boring and won things

 

[JJ Sefton]

Indeed. I wasnt really angry with anyone at the club last night, Blackwell, McCabe, the players, theyre just shit, always have been and always will be, I was angry with myself for postponing uni work, dinner with friends, watching series 7 of Frasier, to go and watch what was always going to be crap. In the second half only manners for the people around me stopped me getting a book out to read I was that bored. I was willing them to get a third goal so that I could leave early with a clear conscience.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Blackwell is a results manager based on a solid defence and well, we know what happened last night on both scores. The apathy writing has been on the wall for sometime and you could tell last week that even a 3-0 home win didn't brighten things up much.

I feel sorry for Blackwell as I've said elsewhere, he's been dealt a shitty hand this season and has had little luck but there's no signs even with the players he has got that things will change, he brings in pace and youth then doesn't play them.

Fans will always be happier when the results are going right but the fact we're in the play-offs given the season we've had and people are unhappy and talking of not renewing says all you need to know.

 

[SwissBlade]

You know that when you start agreeing with Len (partially) that things can't be right (sorry len, had to say it).

As Linz said, I'm not calling for anyone's head, I just want some changes and I want to know how a seemingly good set up, is so full of holes and mistakes.

Last night I was livid, not particularly with defeat, we win more than we lose. But it was the nature of the defeat coming after we'd had a positive day on Monday, only to be kicked again later with the Kyle recall clause fiasco.

So whats changed? I remember a few months ago fiercely defending Blackie agains the likes of Micalijo, Ollesendro and Fiery. And generally still hold the view that Blackie was and is the right man. The problem is, we had excuses before, now we don't. We've allowed a transfer window to go by and we were promised spending, yet we've ended up with loans and the other loans being turned into Permanents.

Everything is short term, everything is planned for a season or two, there's no 5 year plan, theres random talk of promotion, but theres no ballsy push.

So do I want promotion at any expense? No, I want us to be sensible. I want us to show ambition to get permanent players in for 2-3 years not months.

As Season ticket holders we show our faith and support for a full season, if there were 5 year or 10 year season tickets available and we could afford them we'd no doubt buy them.

I just want the club to at least show the ambition to stick to its statements and allow me to see a vision beyond the end of May 2010.

And the odd thing is, if the club showed that to us, I think we'd get more fans going to games even if the football was shite.

Personally I won't be able to get to the lane until the end of feb as i'm still recovering from an op, but its now more than ever that I want to show my support for the club

 

[Worksop II]

I feel sorry for Blackwell as I've said elsewhere, he's been dealt a shitty hand this season and has had little luck but there's no signs even with the players he has got that things will change, he brings in pace and youth then doesn't play them.

Blackwell was on the dole when he was "headhunted" by McCabe with the Major Qualification being someone who knew the Club

From nowhere to manager of SUFC, and the worst that is gonna happen to him is a big payoff, some shitty hand that .......

 

[JJ Sefton]

I wonder if McCabe isnt going for loan signings to limit his exposure in what he sees as the coming football recession? After all, hes just had his fingers burned when the asset price bubble in property burst, maybe hes trying to avoid the same thing happening when the football bubble goes pop?

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I feel sorry for Blackwell as I've said elsewhere, he's been dealt a shitty hand this season and has had little luck but there's no signs even with the players he has got that things will change, he brings in pace and youth then doesn't play them.

Blackwell was on the dole when he was "headhunted" by McCabe with the Major Qualification being someone who knew the Club

From nowhere to manager of SUFC, and the worst that is gonna happen to him is a big payoff, some shitty hand that .......

the key words were 'this season'.

 

[rotweissler]

question

I can't recall a manager ever being sacked because he played ugly football.

wasn't Gartheth Southgate sacked for taking Middlesborough to 2nd in the CCC, but with attendances being the lowest ever at The Riverside?

Ugly Football?

utb

 

[lenners]

I wonder if McCabe isnt going for loan signings to limit his exposure in what he sees as the coming football recession? After all, hes just had his fingers burned when the asset price bubble in property burst, maybe hes trying to avoid the same thing happening when the football bubble goes pop?

I've no problem with using loans, I've no problem with re-profiling.
The problem is with the lack of communication about what that really means.
There is no leadership from the top whatsoever.
We have a shiny new chief executive, apparently brought in to lead with McCabe taking a back seat, and I can't recall him uttering a single word.
I know he had a funeral to attend so he didn't go to the AGM but since then we've still heard virtually nothing from him or McCabe.
We lost our best player a couple of days ago in farcical circumstances but no real explanation as to why shareholders were formally told we had him for a year but then in reality, don't.
We can laugh about Strafford all we like but at least there is clear communication over there about what they're trying to do, clear information about their debts and a clear rejection of them selling their best player earlier in the season.

 

[TonyAgana]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Apathy is the unfortunate side-effect of supporting a team managed by someone who believes in nothing but grinding teams down to get a result. That covers everything for me. Dullness, "meh" despite comfortable wins, lack of a "plan B".

For all we got frustrated with Warnock, how do you think the Palace fans felt last night? Despite being in administration and losing arguably their best player, Warnock put a defender up front for the game and he scored a hat-trick - and put one over on an old rival.

They call us fickle but are we? Or do we just yearn entertainment?

 

[SwissBlade]

Warnock put a defender up front for the game and he scored a hat-trick - and put one over on an old rival.

Doesn't Blackie regularly play players out of position?

 

[super_pig]

there is a philosophical divide here.. there is the winning is all grind out a result mob and there is an can we play some nice football to be proud of please and winning would be nice mob.. (i'm in the second if you hadn't already realised)
football is an entertainment business.. it just so happens that entertaining style football is also the most successful style of play (as manutd, barcelona, spain and brazil will attest).. the grind out results mob will hold the upper hand in this debate as long as they keep grinding out results..
personally i'm sick of all of the fiascos recently that has made us a laughing stock.. every time we're on the bloody news it is an embarassment.. the tevez thing.. kennys ban.. morgans misdemenour.. robertson.. the sharp fiasco.. walker being recalled through an unknown clause (that we didn't put in for sharp).. the new bloody fullback signing missing the deadline.. i'd like something to be proud of to level up some of this crap for a start.

 

[LouTheBlade]

Its got nothing to do with mood swings or being fickle. Anyone who can look me in the eye and tell me that the current regime is acceptable is lying to themselves. The squad has been stripped of all its assets and we are getting by (if you can call it that) through the borrowing of other team's players.

Im fed up of hearing this shit from people - "but we're sixth" - "he's doing well under the circumstances".......bollocks!

The reason we're further up the league is because he's fortunate enough to have a core of hard working players with a shred of talent that is left. Its not all KB's fault, I will grant him that, but the football is dire and the football principles on show are dire! Our directors are more interested in managing other projects than looking after the welfare of the team and they have employed a manager that is only capable of using what we have to adopt a barbaric approach that is to the detriment of the team in big games.

 

[Darren]

there is a philosophical divide here.. there is the winning is all grind out a result mob and there is an can we play some nice football to be proud of please and winning would be nice mob.. (i'm in the second if you hadn't already realised)
football is an entertainment business.. it just so happens that entertaining style football is also the most successful style of play (as manutd, barcelona, spain and brazil will attest).. the grind out results mob will hold the upper hand in this debate as long as they keep grinding out results..
personally i'm sick of all of the fiascos recently that has made us a laughing stock.. every time we're on the bloody news it is an embarassment.. the tevez thing.. kennys ban.. morgans misdemenour.. robertson.. the sharp fiasco.. walker being recalled through an unknown clause (that we didn't put in for sharp).. the new bloody fullback signing missing the deadline.. i'd like something to be proud of to level up some of this crap for a start.

But football isn't really an "entrtainment business" like other entertainment businesses. As has been pointed out ad nauseuma if BBC1 consistently showed crap programmes, you would stop watching it and watch ITV; if your local cinema kept puuting on rubbish films you would stop going; if your favourite Indian restaurant started serving undercooked, overpriced food, you would get your curries elsewhere etc etc etc.

If United play rubbish, you don't think sod it and support Wednesday. People support one club, stick to them and want them to do well. That means results rather than performance matter. If United got promoted playing ugly football and grinding out results is there anyone who would be moaning?

 

[Rustyblade]

If United play rubbish, you don't think sod it and support Wednesday. People support one club, stick to them and want them to do well. That means results rather than performance matter. If United got promoted playing ugly football and grinding out results is there anyone who would be moaning?

Only right in part. We don't all sod off and support Wednesday...but a large majority of the next generation of potential fans will. We'll just stop going in the same numbers until we're down to a hard core and the club is in the lowest tier again.

As for the second - well, would you rather we played ugly football and ground out results knowing full well that it was a bubble waiting to burst (no side can play ugly and be consistently successful) or base our footballing philosophy on pace and movement?

You say if United get promoted playing ugly. What do you honestly reckon the chances of that are? Pretty fucking remote I'd say. Which does kind of knock the argument on the head, don't you think?

 

[Compound_Legend]

It is always around February that one of the teams in the play off positions blows up.In the last few years it's been Swansea and Cardiff.

This year,I hate to say it,is our year.

The key factors...

*The combination of negative tactics and lack of cohesion due to constant change (loan signings and injury)

*Loss of focus from those at the top (is it me or is Mr McCabe concentrating less on the team and more on our hotel and overseas acquisitions instead of the every day running of the club?)

*Lack of strong leadership from the managerial team (a number 2 ex Scarborough keeper,a ex-pig who's contribution to league football is managerial experience at Bury and being a standing joke to those of a certain age for being a defender whose main skill was kicking the ball as hard as he could into touch,and a keeper coach commonly known as one of the worst to wear the No1 jersey at the Lane) and reluctance to change when it's not working - no plan B.

The above makes most realists understand that again,we will spend another year in the Championship.

It's not the case that we should all storm the car park,shoes in hand again,but there are only so many occasions that you have expectation after expectation (hence the retention of season tickets over the last few seasons),only to be disappointed again,and again.Wembley only confirmed again what most of us already knew - when push comes to shove,we constantly are unable to rise to the big occasion when it REALLY matters,and get the game plan totally and utterly incorrect every time.

So where do we go now? Well,we are showing a terrific amount of patience with Blackwell,but continue as we do,and even the most die-hard,rose tinted spectacle wearing bladesman will run out of it.Do we have the balls to get rid and start again? Well...it's worked for some teams in our division and above,but for every Mark Robbins and (dare I say it) Alan Irvine kick starting their respective clubs to get them out of trouble,there's a Mark Cooper,a Brendan Rodgers,and in some respect,even a Gordon Strachan to show that change can some times work,but not in every respect.

Would a manager with a "football" brain work? We tried it with Robson,and looked where that got us.And who would be available that's any good? Remember,there's always some reason why a manager who's out of work got to that position,and for those currently at another club,can we even afford the compensation,when we're reliant on loan signings to keep our team running?

When it comes down to it,we have delusions of grandeur for our future, when off the pitch,we sometimes run ourselves like a parish council being "thrifty",and on the pitch like a Sunday league team phoning ringers up on a Sunday morning. What Mr McCabe and the board,and to an extent,Kevin Blackwell and his backroom staff need to realise is that although we may have a "Rolls Royce" of a club,we can't run it on paraffin. Or in other terms,we might talk the talk,but isn't it time we ACTUALLY walked the walk as well?

There is so much at stake regarding the future of our club and where we are going.We have to have strong leadership in every area to achieve our objectives.And does it include changes of manager and chairman? Well,change is inevitable,but any change has to be for the benefit of the club and it's long term future....watch this space.

 

[Bladesman]

there is a philosophical divide here.. there is the winning is all grind out a result mob and there is an can we play some nice football to be proud of please and winning would be nice mob.. (i'm in the second if you hadn't already realised)
football is an entertainment business.. it just so happens that entertaining style football is also the most successful style of play (as manutd, barcelona, spain and brazil will attest).. the grind out results mob will hold the upper hand in this debate as long as they keep grinding out results..
personally i'm sick of all of the fiascos recently that has made us a laughing stock.. every time we're on the bloody news it is an embarassment.. the tevez thing.. kennys ban.. morgans misdemenour.. robertson.. the sharp fiasco.. walker being recalled through an unknown clause (that we didn't put in for sharp).. the new bloody fullback signing missing the deadline.. i'd like something to be proud of to level up some of this crap for a start.

Dont forget the Beattie is staying/not staying but we have got Lita fiasco aswell.

 

[Darren]

Only right in part. We don't all sod off and support Wednesday...but a large majority of the next generation of potential fans will. We'll just stop going in the same numbers until we're down to a hard core and the club is in the lowest tier again.

As for the second - well, would you rather we played ugly football and ground out results knowing full well that it was a bubble waiting to burst (no side can play ugly and be consistently successful) or base our footballing philosophy on pace and movement?

You say if United get promoted playing ugly. What do you honestly reckon the chances of that are? Pretty fucking remote I'd say. Which does kind of knock the argument on the head, don't you think?

Not really.

The argument is that success measured by promotion and trophies comes first for the vast majority of football fans and the entertainment value of the football a long way second.

The argument that ugly football will not get you promoted anyway is a different argument entirely.

 

[Jon Bon]

Notwithstanding.....

I love that word. :heart:

 

[Rustyblade]

Not really.

The argument is that success measured by promotion and trophies comes first for the vast majority of football fans and the entertainment value of the football a long way second.

The argument that ugly football will not get you promoted anyway is a different argument entirely.

I still think it's a non-argument, Darren. You have divorced the two in a completely artificial way. It's rather like saying that if the food tastes good, I don't care how it's cooked. There is a connection.

Just who has won promotion or trophies without entertaining the fans then? Anyone?

 

[beightonblade]

McCabe an cheap as chips deserve each other ........

same owd won't change whlile McCabe is at BDTBL.

 

[Ollessendro]

I didn't go last night, but can well accept that it was the horror show everyone says it was.

Notwithstanding this, anyone who thinks Blackwell will be sacked on the basis of 2 defeats and 2 bad performances is living in a fantasy world. The guy has - throughout his time at the Lane - kept us consistently challenging for at least a play off place, which probably satisfies his minimum job requirement.

Interestingly, a lot of the hostility to KB seems to be based on the style we play rather than results as such. I can't recall a manager ever being sacked because he played ugly football.

Lastly, there was a poll on here the other week, following our 1 defeat in 11 run, where around 2/3 said they were happy with the current situation. Now, 2 defeats later, everyone is suicidal. There are more mood swings in this place than in the World Conference of Bipolar Disorder Sufferers

So what is your point Darren? Are you purely playing devils advocate or are you actually satisfied with the job that Kevin Blackwell is doing??

I'd be amazed if someone as knowledagble as you, who's follwed United through thick and thin, here there and everywhere is content with that shitethat KB serves up.

 

[super_pig]

>We tried it with Robson,and looked where that got us
no we didn't.. robson was useless.. you can't seriously be holding him up as an example

>ugly football will not get you promoted anyway is a different argument
that is the whole point.. it isn't .. the most successful teams don't play ugly football at any level .. it worked a couple for a couple of years until coaches worked it out.. ill say this again.. man utd.. barcelona.. swansea.. west brom.. norwich.. even bloody leeds.. pick your league.. all of them play proper football on the ground.. the thing about entertaining football is that it has an interesting side effect.. it is successful.. it is all to do with retaining posession and changing the point of attack.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

>We tried it with Robson,and looked where that got us
no we didn't.. robson was useless.. you can't seriously be holding him up as an example

>ugly football will not get you promoted anyway is a different argument
that is the whole point.. it isn't .. the most successful teams don't play ugly football at any level .. it worked a couple for a couple of years until coaches worked it out.. ill say this again.. man utd.. barcelona.. swansea.. west brom.. norwich.. even bloody leeds.. pick your league.. all of them play proper football on the ground.. the thing about entertaining football is that it has an interesting side effect.. it is successful.. it is all to do with retaining posession and changing the point of attack.

You can't really quote the likes of ManU and Barcelona when they can afford any player in the World. As a yardstick you need to be using teams who have played their way out of this division on a shoestring and that would take some doing.

As an aside, do you think Wigan fans are waxing lyrical about Martinez and his wonderful football today ?

 

[super_pig]

i've given you some examples already.. examples from the top of every league..notts forest and newcastle are doing it right now in our league (closely followed by swansea and west brom).. .. i could have sworn that poalo sousa was the manager of swansea?
the point of quoting man utd and barcelona is that it is the style that is successful..:-/

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

i've given you some examples already.. examples from the top of every league..notts forest and newcastle are doing it right now in our league (closely followed by swansea and west brom).. .. i could have sworn that poalo sousa was the manager of swansea?
the point of quoting man utd and barcelona is that it is the style that is successful..:-/

Can I ask how many times you've seen Newcastle, Swansea, Forest, Norwich etc play this season ?

Success and results often give the picture that teams are playing good football and that's not always the case. Compare and contrast the football us and Reading played in 05/06, people will say we had a great season and the football was excellent but was it really for the most part ?

Anyway, Wigan and Martinez ?

 

[Nick Jansky]

As a yardstick you need to be using teams who have played their way out of this division on a shoestring and that would take some doing.

Burnley.

Reading.

Barnsley.