Kop Stand Improvements

[Sheffsteel]

McCabes legacy will be the overall ground developments, in his Q&A at the Octagon last year he said growing up he was always jealous of Hillsborough and when he had the chance he wanted to improve Bramall Lane, i think a new South Stand will be McCabes legacy by the sound of what he was saying.

Agree, rebuilding a huge South stand with state of the art facilities would be the face of the club to visitors.

Imagine players were are interested in buying, agents, opposition directors, media, vip’s interested in investing in the club.
They rock up at our club via the security guarded underground car park, then then go up a life into a fantastic huge open plan executive lounge with fantastic vistas of our stadium and the city centre behind the John Street stand. They then catch another lift into the directors boardroom, again ultra modern and very impressive.
Then they catch another lift down to the changing rooms which are huge and ultra modern with all the latest technology.

Creating a fantastic impression to vip visitors gets communicated to others in the business world raising our profile making us a sexy club.
When a club becomes sexy, more people with money want to climb aboard raising revenue streams more than putting 3000 extra seats on the Kop.

 

[Pedro's Winger]

Everton’s ground is totally hemmed in by roads...the problem them is that it’s impossible to expand beyond its current 40,000 capacity.
Hence all their fans accept that staying at Goodson Park is not even an option.
Where as we have loads of space to expand on 2 sides, Shoreham Street and Cherry Street.

We can expand the ground on two sides but those plans have been around now for about 10 years or more it seems. To me the kop's the most obviously in need of a complete rebuild but the point I was making is the longer it goes on without significant attention the more attractive a new stadium is likely to be, probably associated with 'regeneration' plans of some kind.
I don't want to play anywhere else and love the fact our ground is right in the middle of the city but if you drive past the kop or have to endure crap seating or being behind a pole it's obvious it's nowhere near Prem standard or even a reasonable standard for one of the bigger clubs in the country.

 

[Sheffsteel]

What do you class as a reasonable time frame? Personally, I'd say 30 years.

I’d also say 30 years is reasonable.
I’ve been reading a forum about the Anfield new stand developement and I’m sure on there they wanted to get their investment back after 10 years, which seems very short. Many Liverpool fans said that why their owners are dragging their feet regards expanding other areas because all the big money comes from corporate/ executive boxes and richer fans willing to pay more for much better facilities. That’s the market they’ve targetted.

So although the South stand would be more expensive than the Kop the advantages to the club are much greater with much bigger revenue streams.
The revenue from adding 3,200 seats to the Kop would be really low, even if we sell every seat.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Agree, rebuilding a huge South stand with state of the art facilities would be the face of the club to visitors.

Imagine players were are interested in buying, agents, opposition directors, media, vip’s interested in investing in the club.
They rock up at our club via the security guarded underground car park, then then go up a life into a fantastic huge open plan executive lounge with fantastic vistas of our stadium and the city centre behind the John Street stand. They then catch another lift into the directors boardroom, again ultra modern and very impressive.
Then they catch another lift down to the changing rooms which are huge and ultra modern with all the latest technology.

Creating a fantastic impression to vip visitors gets communicated to others in the business world raising our profile making us a sexy club.
When a club becomes sexy, more people with money want to climb aboard raising revenue streams more than putting 3000 extra seats on the Kop.

There's a danger we could blow the budget on lifts!

 

[gaffablade]

I’d settle if an improvement on the beer

 

[Sheffsteel]

but if you drive past the kop or have to endure crap seating or being behind a pole it's obvious it's nowhere near Prem standard or even a reasonable standard for one of the bigger clubs in the country.

But the current Kop design addresses those issues and improves the current situation massively.

Maybe the word “bolt-on” doesn’t do the design any favours because the word “bolt-on” makes its sound like a bad cheapo diy job that will fall apart sooner or later.
I reckon that if and when the “bolt-on design” is done, our fans will be shocked and amazed at just how modern, classy and spacious our facilities are.
They will also be massively impressed and proud of the look of the Kop from the inside and from outside on Shoreham Street.

 

[super_pig]

best idea would be to bomb the lot in and start again tbh .. spurs style
dunno where we could play though in the meantime

 

[YES Blade]

I’d also say 30 years is reasonable.
I’ve been reading a forum about the Anfield new stand developement and I’m sure on there they wanted to get their investment back after 10 years, which seems very short. Many Liverpool fans said that why their owners are dragging their feet regards expanding other areas because all the big money comes from corporate/ executive boxes and richer fans willing to pay more for much better facilities. That’s the market they’ve targetted.

So although the South stand would be more expensive than the Kop the advantages to the club are much greater with much bigger revenue streams.
The revenue from adding 3,200 seats to the Kop would be really low, even if we sell every seat.

Exactly, that's why I'm in favour of starting again whether that's a 90 degree rotated Lane or a move away. These bolt-ons and cheap extensions aren't going to cut it in 2019 onwards, we'd be better off doing nothing than wasting a load of money on something which would be out of date the day it's completed.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Exactly, that's why I'm in favour of starting again whether that's a 90 degree rotated Lane or a move away. These bolt-ons and cheap extensions aren't going to cut it in 2019 onwards, we'd be better off doing nothing than wasting a load of money on something which would be out of date the day it's completed.

This is only a guess, so could be wrong, no one knows the future regards what division we’ll be in.
But I reckon an investment on a cheap bolt-on will take 20-30 years to get back
Where as a total rebuild would take 100 years to get back, remember we would lose millions due to a big lost in stadium capacity for 2 years plus we also risk losing some fans for ever, when they are told they can’t be relocated as there’s no room and no tickets, effectively a 2 year stadium ban.

Also we’re not likely to be in the top flight for 30 consecutive years, so if we get relegated there will be many seasons where the extra capacity hardly brings us any additional revenue.

Suspect the owners would use the transfer budget, so surely it makes sense to keep the stadium costs as low as possible.

This is all about value for money. As an example why spend 100 million providing 100% of the what the customer wants if spending 25 million provides 95% of what customers want. If it was your money which option would you spend your money on. Think some of our fans are idealistic and unrealistic.

 

[Sheffsteel]

These bolt-ons and cheap extensions aren't going to cut it in 2019 onwards.

Not sure what you mean.
What else do you want the Kop to provide that’s not been included in the latest design.
It improves virtually everything that’s currently wrong and brings it totally up to date with spacious modern facilities all under cover.
Using the words “bolt-on” and “cheap” instantly gives an unfavourable impression, however the facilities will be top class and really impressive.

Or are you saying you’d prefer the Kop to be turned into a leisure area with bars and restaurants, so fans arrive hours before matches and I\that area gets used most evenings by the general public. That seems to be where stadium design is heading.....that’s a different matter......something that might or might not work.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Why do you think that? be interesting to know?

In the past 30 years what percentage of matches at Bramall Lane have sold out and what percentage of matches haven't?

I don't know the answer but I'd guess it'd be something like this.

Sold Out: 1.5%
Didn't Sell Out: 98.5%

But now you're saying we're going to sell out "most" matches plus gain another 5,000 fans from somewhere.

It's complete pie in the sky.

 

[Sheffsteel]

In the past 30 years what percentage of matches at Bramall Lane have sold out and what percentage of matches haven't?

I don't know the answer but I'd guess it'd be something like this.

Sold Out: 1.5%
Didn't Sell Out: 98.5%

But now you're saying we're going to sell out "most" matches plus gain another 5,000 fans from somewhere.

It's complete pie in the sky.

It all depends what division we’re in.

When in the top,flight in 2007 we virtually sold out (ignoring restricted view) 50% of games. Think this season we’ll sell out 90%, maybe even 100% of games.
Also as already been mentioned for small games in the top flight demand might be less than 30K but against the big 6 demand is nearer 45K.
If we build a ground able to accommodate 45K, then some will continue supporting us and become regular fans.
Then in a few years when we play smaller games in the top flight our base support would become 35K, that’s how you grow a fanbase.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

It all depends what division we’re in.

When in the top,flight in 2007 we virtually sold out (ignoring restricted view) 50% of games. Think this season we’ll sell out 90%, maybe even 100% of games.
Also as already been mentioned for small games in the top flight demand might be 30K but against the big 6 demand is nearer 45K.
If we focus on trying to attract 45K, then some will continue supporting us and become regular fans.
Then in a few years when we play small teams in the top flight our base support would become 35K.

We probably could get 40,000+ against Man City or Liverpool but all those extra people aren't Blades fans.

They're not going to be there to see us play a Burnley or a Brighton in a relegation scrap.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It all depends what division we’re in.

When in the top,flight in 2007 we virtually sold out (ignoring restricted view) 50% of games. Think this season we’ll sell out 90%, maybe even 100% of games.
Also as already been mentioned for small games in the top flight demand might be less than 30K but against the big 6 demand is nearer 45K.
If we build a ground able to accommodate 45K, then some will continue supporting us and become regular fans.
Then in a few years when we play smaller games in the top flight our base support would become 35K, that’s how you grow a fanbase.

How many of the 45k do you expect will be away fans?

 

[Berkshire Blade]

In the past 30 years what percentage of matches at Bramall Lane have sold out and what percentage of matches haven't?

I don't know the answer but I'd guess it'd be something like this.

Sold Out: 1.5%
Didn't Sell Out: 98.5%

But now you're saying we're going to sell out "most" matches plus gain another 5,000 fans from somewhere.

It's complete pie in the sky.

Look at the crowds pre the warnock prem year. Then look during and after. Even at our lowest in league one it was around the same as when i first went down the lane and we were chasing championship play offs. No reason to think this year will be any different in transforming the crowds short term. If we build 5000 new seats in the south and only sell 3k seats so what? The hospitality will still make lots as well as better all round facilities.

 

[YES Blade]

This is only a guess, so could be wrong, no one knows the future regards what division we’ll be in.
But I reckon an investment on a cheap bolt-on will take 20-30 years to get back
Where as a total rebuild would take 100 years to get back, remember we would lose millions due to a big lost in stadium capacity for 2 years plus we also risk losing some fans for ever, when they are told they can’t be relocated as there’s no room and no tickets, effectively a 2 year stadium ban.

Also we’re not likely to be in the top flight for 30 consecutive years, so if we get relegated there will be many seasons where the extra capacity hardly brings us any additional revenue.

Suspect the owners would use the transfer budget, so surely it makes sense to keep the stadium costs as low as possible.

This is all about value for money. As an example why spend 100 million providing 100% of the what the customer wants if spending 25 million provides 95% of what customers want. If it was your money which option would you spend your money on. Think some of our fans are idealistic and unrealistic.

It wouldn't be a two year build process, look at the Emirates Stadium, it took Arsenal 2 years and 5 months to build that and I very much doubt we would be build anything as big as that, ours would be a watered down version. We'd also "do a Spurs" and build the new Kop on the car park ready to knock down the current Lane. Ok we'd probably have to play elsewhere for a season, but surely that's a small price to pay for the greater good?

At the moment we have an unbelievable opportunity under a special manager, we need to grasp it and think big, not the usual Sheffield United negativity.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

Corporate Hospitality is a cash cow (in the PL), currently a waiting list of x24 for executive boxes at the Lane.

Tell them to get in touch at Hillsblorough. I understand they currently have 24 standing empty.

 

[Sheffsteel]

How many of the 45k do you expect will be away fans?

I think there’s a big market of football lovers that want to witness top class football.
So they’re neutrals (or support other clubs) but want to see Man City live.
They come and enjoy it......then come again to watch us play Liverpool......become impressed that we are entertaining too....then come to more of our bigger matches.
That’s one of the ways a fanbase can grow.

 

[alcoblade]

We can expand the ground on two sides but those plans have been around now for about 10 years or more it seems. To me the kop's the most obviously in need of a complete rebuild but the point I was making is the longer it goes on without significant attention the more attractive a new stadium is likely to be, probably associated with 'regeneration' plans of some kind.
I don't want to play anywhere else and love the fact our ground is right in the middle of the city but if you drive past the kop or have to endure crap seating or being behind a pole it's obvious it's nowhere near Prem standard or even a reasonable standard for one of the bigger clubs in the country.

I sit on the kop and endure crap seating. I’m almost 6ft and weigh 17 stones. But there’s only so much I could care.

I’d rather my legroom be reduced to zero before we considered moving grounds.

 

[alcoblade]

It wouldn't be a two year build process, look at the Emirates Stadium, it took Arsenal 2 years and 5 months to build that and I very much doubt we would be build anything as big as that, ours would be a watered down version. We'd also "do a Spurs" and build the new Kop on the car park ready to knock down the current Lane. Ok we'd probably have to play elsewhere for a season, but surely that's a small price to pay for the greater good?

At the moment we have an unbelievable opportunity under a special manager, we need to grasp it and think big, not the usual Sheffield United negativity.

We’ve got realistic plans to house 45,000 in our current location.

That’s enough for for even the most optimistic amongst us.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It wouldn't be a two year build process, look at the Emirates Stadium, it took Arsenal 2 years and 5 months to build that and I very much doubt we would be build anything as big as that, ours would be a watered down version. We'd also "do a Spurs" and build the new Kop on the car park ready to knock down the current Lane. Ok we'd probably have to play elsewhere for a season, but surely that's a small price to pay for the greater good?

At the moment we have an unbelievable opportunity under a special manager, we need to grasp it and think big, not the usual Sheffield United negativity.

All things being equal building 1 stand takes the same time as building 4 stands
because for the 4 stand build you’d have 4 times the workforce and 4 times the machinery, so it’s the same.

The whole site would need clearing first, a massive job fraught with potential dangers and potential delays (which will cost money)
We’d also need to pay out big stadium hire costs and we’d lose millions in revenue due to lower crowds, also risking pissling off the fanbase.

The costs and lost revenue would be unbelievably high, the Spurs stadium cost over 750 million....some say 1000 million in total.
However they are charging roughly £1000 per season ticket in a 62,000 capacity stadium, giving a 26,000 increase in capacity over the old stadium.
They also have contracts in place to hire out their stadium for NFL games.
They’ve also designed the bars and restaurants to such a high standard that 1000’s arrive very early and 1000’s stay behind after the matches still using their facilities.

Imagine Peter Jones on Dragons Den he’s say to you......
You’re thinking big, which is good, but you haven’t giving any consideration regards a business plan.
How are we going to get the massive investment back over what we would receive if we didn’t improve the stadium.

So what would the new capacity be. Would you massively increase season tickets and match day prices?
Will we be able to use these facilities on non match days and how? What happens if we get relegated?
How many years do you think it would take to get the investment back over and above what we make now (with no stadium improvements)
Would you use all the transfer money to build the stadium and for how many years would you suggest we hardly buy any new players?
Do you think we can keep staying up if we hardly spend anything on the squad for a few years.

FWIW i’d love us to do something similar to Spurs and build a 50K stadium but it’s not realistic.
We would need a billionaire who treats us like a charity and is willing to through some of his wealth down a pit.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I sit on the kop and endure crap seating. I’m almost 6ft and weigh 17 stones.

That's your own fault for being obese then.

There's nothing wrong with the seating.

 

[alcoblade]

That's your own fault for being obese then.

There's nothing wrong with the seating.

I'm not complaining, that was the point. But the seating is crap - it's just a case of how much you really care.

I'm also not fat, so I'd choose your words more wisely, pencil neck, in case we ever meet.

 

[Balham]

That's your own fault for being obese then.

There's nothing wrong with the seating.

Nothing wrong with the seating, it's the gap between the seats that's the problem. And the rake. And the fucking pillars. And the fact that the autumn/winter sun sets over the stand at the other end so you can't see anything in the second half.

The Kop is, frankly, shite. I'd love to hear an empirical argument to the contrary.

I'm not complaining, that was the point. But the seating is crap - it's just a case of how much you really care.

I'm also not fat, so I'd choose your words more wisely, pencil neck, in case we ever meet.

Technically, at 17st (108kg) and 6' (1.82m) your BMI (32.6) is considered obese. BMI is bollocks but it's still relied on by know-nowts.

 

[BushBlade]

We’ve got realistic plans to build 45,000 houses in our current location.

That’s enough for for even the most optimistic amongst us.

I knew it. Bastards.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I'm not complaining, that was the point. But the seating is crap - it's just a case of how much you really care.

I'm also not fat, so I'd choose your words more wisely, pencil neck, in case we ever meet.

How can you be obese but not fat?

Not having a go, genuine question.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Nothing wrong with the seating, it's the gap between the seats that's the problem. And the rake. And the fucking pillars. And the fact that the autumn/winter sun sets over the stand at the other end so you can't see anything in the second half.

The Kop is, frankly, shite. I'd love to hear an empirical argument to the contrary.

I've never heard a good argument as to why the Kop is shit.

It seems to me that most of the people who complain about it are people who don't sit on it.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think there’s a big market of football lovers that want to witness top class football.
So they’re neutrals (or support other clubs) but want to see Man City live.
They come and enjoy it......then come again to watch us play Liverpool......become impressed that we are entertaining too....then come to more of our bigger matches.
That’s one of the ways a fanbase can grow.

But the away fans?

The fan base grew more last time because local children wanted to watch Chelsea and the like than neutrals - possibly students aside - together with McCabes excellent ticket pricing. I know it’s on Sky but with 25000 season ticket holders and plenty it seems with a fair few points we seem to be struggling to sell out for our first PL home game since 2007. 45k capacity seems a tad too risky at the moment ignoring the issue of who will pay for any expansion upfront and wait for a long term ROI.

That’s not showing a lack of ambition it’s about the cost, effect on player budgets and the likelihood of achieving 45k for any game, as things stand now.

 

[Selly]

We’ve got realistic plans to house 45,000 in our current location.

That’s enough for for even the most optimistic amongst us.

Entirely agree.

If 45k becomes not enough, then we start taking to SCC about building over Bramall Lane itself, or rerouting the road around an expanded BL stand.

Or we buy all the houses on John Street and expand that side.

We have many options. I'll be very surpassed if we need not than the current plans give us but will happily eat my words of we ever do...

 

[alcoblade]

[/QUOTE]
I pumpmlots of iron.

How can you be obese but not fat?

Not having a go, genuine question.

BMI is simply weight divided by the square of your height. It takes no account of mucsle mass or build.

Joking aside, I could do with losing a stone or so, but I’m a bit of a bodybuilder and at my ripped optimum (I’ll never be that) I’d still rank as “obese” in the tables.