Neil Warnocks selective memory/talking out of his arse

[tomtheblade]

For those of us too young to really remember the Bassett era (I only saw a handful of games under him), save for about a year or so under Kendall/Spackman, Warnock was the best times we've had up until recently.

The football wasn't always great, but the games were often exciting, which is why we go in the first place.

As for attendances, it's pretty clear that they improved considerably under him, and that he should take some credit for that. He had many, many, faults, but overall I have some great memories of that time.

 

[JackSUFC]

He ought to have stayed one year fewer. He relegated us, not Tevez.

Kevin McCabe has since regretted giving him the Premiership season. He should not have done so. Him, he was out of his depth, him.

Maybe so but I doubt McCabe would've brought someone in who would've kept us up and then kicked on. Afterall, McCabe replaced Warnock by headhunting Bryan Robson and giving him our biggest playing budget ever.

 

[oldblade]

League attendances, which is what's being discussed only hit over 20000 twice.

All +

17
18
18
21
19
23

So no, he didn't double attendances. Which is what I said.

The Championship figures are 17211, 18031, 18073, 21646, 19594, 23650. A year on year increase bar 2004-5 season.

Our average attendance for the 10 home games of the season prior to Warnock taking over was 12580.
Our last Championship average attendance under him was 23650.

As I have already stated that is an 89.9% increase. Not double, but pretty close.

Even looking at his lowest average attendance for a complete season (17211), that is still a 36.8% jump on what we were getting before he came. I think most impartial people would say that is a pretty good increase after just one season.

I think Warnock's public persona is difficult to like. I can understand why many people don't like him, but I think they allow this dislike of him to cloud their judgement when talking about his achievements. Because people don't like him he can't have achieved anything. Or more to the point, people don't want him to have achieved anything.

The facts show that there was a substantial increase in our championship average attendances under him. Not double, but certainly substantial and that is linked to the fact that there was an upturn in our fortunes on the pitch under him.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

What, you mean that he didn't double attendances? Which is what I've claimed.

He did double attendances. It's just you moving the goalposts.

How's the Villa thread going?

Completed it mate.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Maybe so but I doubt McCabe would've brought someone in who would've kept us up and then kicked on. Afterall, McCabe replaced Warnock by headhunting Bryan Robson and giving him our biggest playing budget ever.

Followed by a succession of even worse managers culminating in Mickey Mouse, relegation to L1 and £50m out of pocket. When will people realise where the real problem lies?

 

[Sean Thornton]

The Championship figures are 17211, 18031, 18073, 21646, 19594, 23650.

Our average attendance for the 10 home games of the season prior to Warnock taking over was 12580.
Our last Championship average attendance under him was 23650.

As I have already stated that is an 89.9% increase. Not double, but pretty close.

Even looking at his lowest average attendance for a complete season (17211), that is still a 36.8% jump on what we were getting before he came. I think most impartial people would say that is a pretty good increase after just one season.

I think Warnock's public persona is difficult to like. I can understand why many people don't like him, but I think they allow this dislike of him to cloud their judgement when talking about his achievements.

The facts show that there was a substantial increase in our championship average attendances under him. Not double, but certainly substantial and that is linked to the fact that there was an upturn in our fortunes on the pitch under him.

And I've never said it wasn't substantial, including giving figures. My initial point was that doubling attendances, Warnocks claim, was a fallacy. You can keep posting the figures but it won't change anything.

An NW claim, like the bs about the academy being his idea and us having no youth policy while he had players come through that he inherited and four of them fetching good fees.

There's even a claim he was responsible for ground redevelopment. Jesus.,

He gave us three very good seasons but messed up royally in his last one. That, and his constant rewriting of history is what I find annoying, along with the Pompey job tall tales.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He did double attendances. It's just you moving the goalposts.



Completed it mate.

What's two times 12580?

I've been quite clear where the goalposts are. If you insist on using the PL season as part of your argument, well.

Losing draw I guess?

 

[snootyfenooty]

Yes. He agreed attendances weren't doubled. Didn't you see that?

No, they only went up 90% in the 1st division, 100+% if you count the Prem. C'mon Sean, give up on this one, you're splitting infinitives now, no one was counting to the nearest 1.

 

[oldblade]

For those of us too young to really remember the Bassett era (I only saw a handful of games under him), save for about a year or so under Kendall/Spackman, Warnock was the best times we've had up until recently.

The football wasn't always great, but the games were often exciting, which is why we go in the first place.

As for attendances, it's pretty clear that they improved considerably under him, and that he should take some credit for that. He had many, many, faults, but overall I have some great memories of that time.

If you think the football wasn't always great under Warnock you might have been a bit shocked if you had seen us under Bassett. Often effective and sometimes exciting, but definitely not pretty!

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

No, they only went up 90% in the 1st division, 100+% if you count the Prem. C'mon Sean, give up on this one, you're splitting infinitives now, no one was counting to the nearest 1.

You're not allowed to count the Prem because it disproves his argument obviously.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

What's two times 12580?

Less than 32,604.

 

[tomtheblade]

If you think the football wasn't always great under Warnock you might have been a bit shocked if you had seen us under Bassett. Often effective and sometimes exciting, but definitely not pretty!

Yeah, I watched the highlights of the early 90s 2-0 victory at Hillsborough recently and was surprised with the quality of both the football and the pitch (one may have had something to do with the other). Just goes to show that even in our best games we played with a style which is now antiquated.
Also shows how grateful we should be for what we currently witness down at the Lane!

 

[Sean Thornton]

No, they only went up 90% in the 1st division, 100+% if you count the Prem. C'mon Sean, give up on this one, you're splitting infinitives now, no one was counting to the nearest 1.

Seriously, the PL crowds were a given.

We got 25k plus under Robson and Blackwell the season after, an increase on Warnocks best season........

 

[Sean Thornton]

Less than 32,604.

And what figure would that represent?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

And what figure would that represent?

The attendance of Warnock's final game.

 

[tomtheblade]

Would it not be fair to consider the Robson/Blackwell season as a reasonable benchmark for how Championship attendances improved under Warnock? (Compared to the attendances before he took over).

Discarding the Prem I can understand, but he did get us there (and no, not any manager could have done it. Look at Robson/Blackwell who failed), so our first season back in the Championship would give us a reasonable guess as to the overall improvement within that division.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The attendance of Warnock's final game.

As unimportant as that was.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Seriously, the PL crowds were a given.

We got 25k plus under Robson and Blackwell the season after, an increase on Warnocks best season........

Warnock's legacy!

Call it quits, I've had enough of this one.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Would it not be fair to consider the Robson/Blackwell season as a reasonable benchmark for how Championship attendances improved under Warnock? (Compared to the attendances before he took over).

Discarding the Prem I can understand, but he did get us there (and no, not any manager could have done it. Look at Robson/Blackwell who failed), so our first season back in the Championship would give us a reasonable guess as to the overall improvement within that division.

Of course they improved - Red Wine Robbo/useless **** - was more tongue in cheek to be honest and that was down to what NW had happening on the pitch. No doubt about it. Not denied that, but there are so many myths* about him it sometimes still gets my goat. Basset achieved far more with a lot less and remains far more popular because it's not all about him.

I understand why some rate him highly but let's stick to the facts rather than his bizarre proclamations about we were dying and he saved us and set us up for the future via an academy which was already the aim before he even joined us.



*Usually started by himself.

 

[oldblade]

What's two times 12580?

I've been quite clear where the goalposts are. If you insist on using the PL season as part of your argument, well.

Losing draw I guess?

He did use the PL season as part of his argument, but you used the 1998-9 season as part of your argument rather than the more up to date 1999

And I've never said it wasn't substantial, including giving figures. My initial point was that doubling attendances, Warnocks claim, was a fallacy. You can keep posting the figures but it won't change anything.

An NW claim, like the bs about the academy being his idea and us having no youth policy while he had players come through that he inherited and four of them fetching good fees.

There's even a claim he was responsible for ground redevelopment. Jesus.,

He gave us three very good seasons but messed up royally in his last one. That, and his constant rewriting of history is what I find annoying, along with the Pompey job tall tales.

I would class the second half of 1999-2000 as pretty good as well. We were staring relegation in the face. He soon changed that. And the following season we performed better than I expected (perhaps my expectations are too low!) We were around the play offs for most of the season and won at Hillsborough.

Attendances had been falling at the lane for a couple of years prior to his arrival. 17947 (1997-8), 16243 (1998-9), 12580 (Aug-Dec 1999).

I suppose It's subjective, but is an 89.9% increase not quite close to 100%?
​

Warnock's final championship attendance average was 1410 people short of being exactly double what is was when he first walked into the club. Close, but no cigar.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Warnock's legacy!

Call it quits, I've had enough of this one.

He did increase the fan base by promotion of course. The season after relegation attendance was a direct result of him getting us into the PL.


Still not double though.........

 

[Sean Thornton]

He did use the PL season as part of his argument, but you used the 1998-9 season as part of your argument rather than the more up to date 1999



I would class the second half of 1999-2000 as pretty good as well. We were staring relegation in the face. He soon changed that. And the following season we performed better than I expected (perhaps my expectations are too low!) We were around the play offs for most of the season and won at Hillsborough.

Attendances had been falling at the lane for a couple of years prior to his arrival. 17947 (1997-8), 16243 (1998-9), 12580 (Aug-Dec 1999).

I suppose It's subjective, but is an 89.9% increase not quite close to 100%?
​

Warnock's final championship attendance average was 1410 people short of being exactly double what is was when he first walked into the club. Close, but no cigar.

Which I dropped to use your figure. I don't think you are using the PL season either.

It seems though now the Wigan game is the attendance benchmark for his achievements.

 

[oldblade]

Of course they improved - Red Wine Robbo/useless **** - was more tongue in cheek to be honest and that was down to what NW had happening on the pitch. No doubt about it. Not denied that, but there are so many myths* about him it sometimes still gets my goat. Basset achieved far more with a lot less and remains far more popular because it's not all about him.

I understand why some rate him highly but let's stick to the facts rather than his bizarre proclamations about we were dying and he saved us and set us up for the future via an academy which was already the aim before he even joined us.



*Usually started by himself.

I agree that Bassett did achieve more with less. Getting back to back promotions, an FA cup semi final and keeping us in the 1st division/premiership for 4 seasons was nothing short of a miracle. And yet there are a few on this forum (well, one notable person) who cannot seem to post about him without using insulting terms.

However, just because Bassett achieved more and was a more likeable character doesn't diminish Warnock's achievements. He did nearly double our attendances. He did transform our performances on the pitch. The Lane became an entertaining place to go once more.

I read criticism about so called dire performances throughout his tenure. To me that is a rewriting of history. I simply do not remember a huge number of those at home (subjective view I accept). I usually left The Lane feeling I had got my money's worth and that it had been worth the 150 mile drive to get there. And that 2002-3 season provided countless exhilarating moments . Probably more on the pitch excitement than in any other season in my lifetime.

Even the ill fated premier league season provided quite a few magical moments, even if it did ultimately end in disappointment.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He did increase the fan base by promotion of course. The season after relegation attendance was a direct result of him getting us into the PL.


Still not double though.........

Ooh forgot Snooty, one last kidney punch., also aided by St Kevin's excellent pricing policy and free kids tickets....

 

[Sean Thornton]

I agree that Bassett did achieve more with less. Getting back to back promotions, an FA cup semi final and keeping us in the 1st division/premiership for 4 seasons was nothing short of a miracle. And yet there are a few on this forum (well, one notable person) who cannot seem to post about him without using insulting terms.

However, just because Bassett achieved more and was a more likeable character doesn't diminish Warnock's achievements. He did nearly double our attendances. He did transform our performances on the pitch. The Lane became an entertaining place to go once more.

I read criticism about so called dire performances throughout his tenure. To me that is a rewriting of history. I simply do not remember a huge number of those at home (subjective view I accept). I usually left The Lane feeling I had got my money's worth and that it had been worth the 150 mile drive to get there. And that 2002-3 season provided countless exhilarating moments . Probably more on the pitch excitement than in any other season in my lifetime.

Even the ill fated premier league season provided quite a few magical moments, even if it did ultimately end in disappointment.

That's a great post and I can agree with much of it. 2002/2003 was brilliant and l would never fault him pre PL for always going for it. 1-0 down at home and he'd put three strikers on. If we hadn't been cheated at Anfield.......

 

[oldblade]

Which I dropped to use your figure. I don't think you are using the PL season either.

It seems though now the Wigan game is the attendance benchmark for his achievements.

Fair enough.

I think you are right that you have to try and compare like with like or the comparison loses any meaning. I agree that using our premier league average attendance is not a fair comparison.

 

[Blend-it-like-Harris]

If he was so obsessed about his unbelievably negative tactics away from home you'd have thought he might have come up with a tactic of defenders knocking it up and under towards the channels to let someone with pace and the ability to chase 'em down - but no.............. he left Danny Webber on the sidelines. I was glad to see the back of him, but we've certainly had to suffer worse since!

 

[BushBlade]

What the ..... He didn't leave us with money !!! McCabe (and West Ham) funded it.

And we err, didn't bounce back......

Temerity? Rewrite of history. Told McCabe he'd been offered the Pompey job. Mandaric flatly denied it. Almost the final nail in his coffin.

Anyway, no agreement will be reached and there's a far better discussion going on about Villa on another thread/parallel universe.

Parachute payments. KM didn’t fund those.

 

[Revolution]

Here's how our average home crowds ranked compared to the other teams in the division during Warnock's tenure. 24 teams each time:

1999-2000 15th
2000-01 7th
2001-02 9th
2002-03 9th
2003-04 7th
2004-05 9th
2005-06 5th

We were 11th out of 20 in our PL season

 

[BushBlade]

Speaking for myself, any criticism of Warnock is down the missed oppurtunity in the PL: a better January transfer window or braver selections/tactics on the road would have been enough to save us, and I think he was capable of both.

I will qualify that with the fact that, like with you, he's the second best manager I've seen since I've been watching too.
(Though I'm sure standards could have been better: I'd struggle to name a club who's picked a worse succession of managers than we did after Warnock.)

I think it’s a fair point that a manager of his experience should have spotted how important Hulse was and tried to bring in cover for him in the JTW. If our relegation could be attributed to one event, and in reality it can’t, it was losing Hulse. But maybe the money wasn’t available or we just couldn’t find someone, a bit like Wilder not replacing Coutts in the last JTW. Sometimes it just isn’t possible.