South Stand

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I've had planning permission to build a porch on my house for 5 years. No porch. Think we are years (7+) from this even being considered.

Could be used to up the value of the asset though?
 



Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
It's not a backward mentality, SF, it's about not putting the cart before the horse. The teams that you mentioned had increased attendances through playing consistently in the top division, it's worth noting that Boro average twice the crowd deepnding on whether they are in the prem or championship. It's also worth remembering that had we not got promoted (infinite praise to CW) when we did, having a 2/3's full BDTBL in the 3rd tier of english football was becoming a financial burden. It's only recently that Leeds started opening their whole stadium up for games. Look at the shit Sunderland will be in next season. Also, having seen the shit show that the SS caused, i am forever nervous about expensive ground improvements.

With the additional seats we'd be up at circa 37k capacity, we've never averaged that in our existence as a club and we certainly wouldn't in the championship. If you take our average attendance over the last 30 yrs, it's something like 20.5k. We don't sell out now, and i also don't believe that we sell out our corporate allocation either. Unless we are doing this to increase the sell to away teams? As some have said on this thread, the Kop would be the stand to modernise and refurb, and even wait until the safe standing issue gets resolved.

The stadium we have is suitable for the level we are playing at and will hopefully be playing at for the foreseeable future. If we want to improve revenue, then we should start with the safety advisory group & sort out the catering facilities already operating. It's worth noting that over half the prem do not average 37k attendances. It smacks of bread & circuses at a time when the ownership of the club is in the air. My tip for the top table would be invest all available monies in the team, get promoted, avoid relegation for 2 seasons, and then think about ground expansion.
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I don't know how old you are but the clubs I mentioned played in front of crowds of typically 15k and practically doubled overnight when they moved into the new grounds. I don't have the figures but I reckon the average crowd post new-stadiums at Southampton, Boro and Leicester are double compared to say the 10 year average before they built the new gound, irrespective of what division they were in. Coventry's were initially but I think we are all familiar with the reasons for their demise.

As regards United, our premiership season would have been approaching a 35k average as there was at least half a dozen matches where we could have shifted 40k tickets. To increase the average you need to increase the overall capacity first. I still maintain we would get higher crowds now as casual fans couldn't be arsed with sitting in an oversized garden shed due to the better seats being sold out.

Refurbing the kop as you suggest would be a practical solution but a non-starter. To upgrade the facilities to SS standards would mean charging SS prices. In this instance you would hear more noise from the koppites than we have heard from them all season. You get what you pay for and in this case I think the kop patrons are happy with things as they are.
 
nopigfansintown said:
Just reading the architects booklet, page 24, which says: "the Cherry Street development that is anticipated to start on site in the new year has a knock on impact to the layout of the site and the position of the ramp to the basement".Has it been delayed due to the boardroom wrangling?
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It was planned to break ground a while back yes.
 
I see the little old Sheffield United mentality is alive anf kicking on this thread. Some would love us to be forever underdogs.
 
Trigger Blade said:
Somebody moved into our village, right opposite the church, as the church bells were undergoing repair and therefore silent.

Shortly after they started again, we had a hand delivered letter, addressed to "The Occupier" and starting off Dear Neighbour, asking us to support them in their bid to get the church bells silenced permanently as they were disturbing his sleep.

He got no support from us or anybody else, on the basis that those bells had been chiming in their very unusual octagonal tower since Norman times.
Click to expand...

My cousin is a farmer in North Yorkshire, and last year somebody who had recently moved into the village wrote and asked him if he would bring his cows in for milking 2 hours later as they were waking him up!
 
snootyfenooty said:
I don't know how old you are but the clubs I mentioned played in front of crowds of typically 15k and practically doubled overnight when they moved into the new grounds. I don't have the figures but I reckon the average crowd post new-stadiums at Southampton, Boro and Leicester are double compared to say the 10 year average before they built the new gound, irrespective of what division they were in. Coventry's were initially but I think we are all familiar with the reasons for their demise.

As regards United, our premiership season would have been approaching a 35k average as there was at least half a dozen matches where we could have shifted 40k tickets. To increase the average you need to increase the overall capacity first. I still maintain we would get higher crowds now as casual fans couldn't be arsed with sitting in an oversized garden shed due to the better seats being sold out.

Refurbing the kop as you suggest would be a practical solution but a non-starter. To upgrade the facilities to SS standards would mean charging SS prices. In this instance you would hear more noise from the koppites than we have heard from them all season. You get what you pay for and in this case I think the kop patrons are happy with things as they are.
Click to expand...

At least 10 years older than you i suspect.

The 1st season that the Riverside opened was the first season Boro played in the prem. In 2010 the first season they got relegated, they took 10k off their average home attendance, and the season after, another 3.5k, so 13.5k in two seasons between the 2 divisions.

Southampton were playing in the premier league in a 15k capacity stadium, they were selling it out and could obviously sell more.

Leicester's attendances remained roughly the same (save for a 2 season spike) until the last 3 seasons which corresponds with them playing in the prem. As an example, they did 20.5k at filbert street in 1999, and the same figure at king power in 2009.

All 3 clubs went from 15kish to 30kish in the top division, a similar attendance to what we got & in line with half the prem.

Which were the 6 games we could've shifted 40k tickets? Liverpool 31,726. Man Utd 32,584. Wigan 32,604. Chelsea 32,321. Man City 32,591. Arsenal 32,086. Spurs 32,144. I suspect Man Utd out of that list was our only sell out game that season. I doubt we've ever shifted 40k home tickets for a match. We got 31,796 for the last FA Cup Semi and i don't think we sold out. I've not got the exact number but we didn't take 40k to wembley in '93. So we'd be extending the SS, to accommodate home fans from BLU, to give both tiers to away fans to sell a larger allocation?
 
Quite ironic really

Here we are with granted planning permission, with someone saying gerrit built, all at the same time we that we don't appear to have a pot to piss in for our Managers transfer budget, wrapped up in a threat for him to walk out

:(
 
Love the Lane as it is, don’t want it tartifying too much. Went to New York Stadium last week out of football desperation, first impression is that it’s a great stadium, facilities ok, smiley female stewards, fans zone with music outside. However it doesn’t feel like a football ground, built to specification and seems to lack the authenticity of a proper football atmosphere, complete with twatish mascot called Miller Bear ( sic). Too sterile
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
At least 10 years older than you i suspect.

The 1st season that the Riverside opened was the first season Boro played in the prem. In 2010 the first season they got relegated, they took 10k off their average home attendance, and the season after, another 3.5k, so 13.5k in two seasons between the 2 divisions.

Southampton were playing in the premier league in a 15k capacity stadium, they were selling it out and could obviously sell more.

Leicester's attendances remained roughly the same (save for a 2 season spike) until the last 3 seasons which corresponds with them playing in the prem. As an example, they did 20.5k at filbert street in 1999, and the same figure at king power in 2009.

All 3 clubs went from 15kish to 30kish in the top division, a similar attendance to what we got & in line with half the prem.

Which were the 6 games we could've shifted 40k tickets? Liverpool 31,726. Man Utd 32,584. Wigan 32,604. Chelsea 32,321. Man City 32,591. Arsenal 32,086. Spurs 32,144. I suspect Man Utd out of that list was our only sell out game that season. I doubt we've ever shifted 40k home tickets for a match. We got 31,796 for the last FA Cup Semi and i don't think we sold out. I've not got the exact number but we didn't take 40k to wembley in '93. So we'd be extending the SS, to accommodate home fans from BLU, to give both tiers to away fans to sell a larger allocation?
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Your argument is flawed. I've taken a look at Leicester City and their average attendance at Filbert Street in the 10 years prior to the move was 18,880. This was predominantly in the Premier League including two League Cup wins. In the 10 years immediately after their move to the Walker Stadium, they averaged 24,345, predominantly in the Championship. One was a successful club playing in a shit hole, the other was a poor team in playing first class facilities. Work it out. The following website details this and other examples:

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk

The 7 premiership games you mention involving United were effectively sell-outs. I attended just one of these. I didn't have a ST that season and attending these games would have involved queueing for a ticket for hours and getting a ticket behind a pillar for me and getting one for my lad at a different part of the ground, also probably behind a pillar. He was 11 at the time. I didn't bother and neither would anyone else have in my situation. United would have shifted 40k for these games no sweat if adequate capacity and facilities were available.

This is what I mean about a backward looking club with backward looking fans. You mentioned earlier about the SS setting us back and by this I assume you infer we would have been better sticking with the 3-sided shithole we had in those days. Deary me.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
"And SUFC, Take a hint from Southampton FC, relocate somewhere outside the city and you can do what you want."
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Nah. Southampton still had some hoops to jump through to develop St Mary's and move, despite the pressure the Dell put on the local area at the time and the raft of complaints from residents and the ambitions to gentrify the area (and the backhanders)

And for Carrick's knowledge, St Mary's isn't 'outside the city' moreso 'build on scrap ground'. Its akin to us building on of the many old steelworks areas in Sheffield well inside the two mile zone from Fitzalan Square. Its still a cunt to get to, a cunt to park near and a cunt to get away from.

pommpey
 
snootyfenooty said:
Your argument is flawed. I've taken a look at Leicester City and their average attendance at Filbert Street in the 10 years prior to the move was 18,880. This was predominantly in the Premier League including two League Cup wins. In the 10 years immediately after their move to the Walker Stadium, they averaged 24,345, predominantly in the Championship. One was a successful club playing in a shit hole, the other was a poor team in playing first class facilities. Work it out. The following website details this and other examples:

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk

The 7 premiership games you mention involving United were effectively sell-outs. I attended just one of these. I didn't have a ST that season and attending these games would have involved queueing for a ticket for hours and getting a ticket behind a pillar for me and getting one for my lad at a different part of the ground, also probably behind a pillar. He was 11 at the time. I didn't bother and neither would anyone else have in my situation. United would have shifted 40k for these games no sweat if adequate capacity and facilities were available.

This is what I mean about a backward looking club with backward looking fans. You mentioned earlier about the SS setting us back and by this I assume you infer we would have been better sticking with the 3-sided shithole we had in those days. Deary me.
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It’s not about a ‘little old sheffield united’ mentality, it’s anout reality.

No, I mean that I am wary of expensive construction work and the effect it can have on a club’s finances 20+ years after the event.

The suggested work for a top 10 championship club that currently averages 5k shy of it’s capacity, is nothing more than a vanity project.

If we were an established premier league club, I would welcome a ground extension. The Planning permission is valid for either 3 or 5 years, and I therefore doubt we will be one in that time. So therefore a waste of time.

If matchday income is an issue, we could buy in the office block & infill a corner and make 15 more exec boxes. We could also improve the current offer from its hardly sparkling level & charge more.

I also seriously doubt your contention that we could attract 40k attendances at a frequency to make that capacity a worthwhile expenditure. 14k people aren’t currently waiting for a 2nd tier to be put on the south stand before paying to watch us. Higher attendances occur after success on the pitch.
 



pommpey said:
Nah. Southampton still had some hoops to jump through to develop St Mary's and move, despite the pressure the Dell put on the local area at the time and the raft of complaints from residents and the ambitions to gentrify the area (and the backhanders)

And for Carrick's knowledge, St Mary's isn't 'outside the city' moreso 'build on scrap ground'. Its akin to us building on of the many old steelworks areas in Sheffield well inside the two mile zone from Fitzalan Square. Its still a cunt to get to, a cunt to park near and a cunt to get away from.

pommpey
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....which could explain the Filbert Street attendances, with half the gate stuck on the Leicester Ring Road looking for the fucking ground.
 
snootyfenooty said:
This is the bit people don't understand. Southampton, Middlesborough, Leicester and Coventry all had shitty little grounds which they struggled to fill then hey presto, new grounds and the fans flocked in. The SS and Westfield corner are usually full, JS out of bounds, you get hassle getting in and out of BLUT plus aggravation from SYP outside. Oh and the kop is a dump. That doesn't leave very much on top of what we have now does it?

People have choices how they spend their money these days and don't mind paying good money for premium facilities at sporting events. No wonder we are where we are with some of the backward attitudes amongst our fanbase.
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There's a thoery, and I can't for the life of me remember its' name, that says that when a venue become 90% full it actually becomes off-putting to new visitors.

So Bramall Lane at 32k might realistically expect to have 29k consistently (with the odd exception either way) assuming an attractive product. Make it 37k and wemihht realistically expect 33k (with the odd exception)

I think the your comment about facilities tis in to this nicely.
 
stringjunior said:
There's a thoery, and I can't for the life of me remember its' name, that says that when a venue become 90% full it actually becomes off-putting to new visitors.

So Bramall Lane at 32k might realistically expect to have 29k consistently (with the odd exception either way) assuming an attractive product. Make it 37k and wemihht realistically expect 33k (with the odd exception)

I think the your comment about facilities tis in to this nicely.
Click to expand...

To clarify, you are seriously suggesting that with no change in league & quality of team, simply by extending the ground, we’ll put another 6k on our average gate?!?

How come Dortmund & Bayern (as examples that spring to mind) sell out every home game without falling foul of this 90% rule?
 
Last time we were in the Premiership we sold more than 30k seats for most games, it was always the last few thousand that were the hardest to shift. Anyone thinking about it for a few minutes can see that is because a lot of those seats were restricted view and by the time only a few are left they are usually single seats dotted around the stadium, now no fucker wanting to take his kids to see us play the top teams in the country is going to be sat away from his youngsters so he just will not bother going. The pigs can sell 38,000 for a relegation decider in the championship are people really suggesting we cant shift that many for top games given our average attendance despite having a smaller capacity is larger than their average ........ really ? Those saying wait till we are in the Premiership and established (how long before we would be considered established?) where would we put the 30,000 + while the building work was ongoing i don't see no Wembley around these parts, talking of Spurs I expect we will see them drop down the leagues now the have built a massive new stadium never mind a new south stand. It is after all said and done all about the little old Sheff Utd mentality being alive and kicking.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
To clarify, you are seriously suggesting that with no change in league & quality of team, simply by extending the ground, we’ll put another 6k on our average gate?!?

How come Dortmund & Bayern (as examples that spring to mind) sell out every home game without falling foul of this 90% rule?
Click to expand...

To clarify. No. That would be silly. The bit where I said "assuming an attractive product" I thought covered it. But to be clear when I said attractive product I was thinking along the lines of premier league football or at least challenging regularly for promotion from the championship.

And yes, I'm fully aware of clubs who sell out every week, but they are mainly huge brands which have demand massively outstripping supply.

And the 90% thing isn't a rule, it's a theory.
 
metalblade said:
Last time we were in the Premiership we sold more than 30k seats for most games, it was always the last few thousand that were the hardest to shift. Anyone thinking about it for a few minutes can see that is because a lot of those seats were restricted view and by the time only a few are left they are usually single seats dotted around the stadium, now no fucker wanting to take his kids to see us play the top teams in the country is going to be sat away from his youngsters so he just will not bother going. The pigs can sell 38,000 for a relegation decider in the championship are people really suggesting we cant shift that many for top games given our average attendance despite having a smaller capacity is larger than their average ........ really ? Those saying wait till we are in the Premiership and established (how long before we would be considered established?) where would we put the 30,000 + while the building work was ongoing i don't see no Wembley around these parts, talking of Spurs I expect we will see them drop down the leagues now the have built a massive new stadium never mind a new south stand. It is after all said and done all about the little old Sheff Utd mentality being alive and kicking.
Click to expand...

Perhaps i've got my maths wrong, but during the premiership season, BL lower was over 3k away fans? If so, we never sold more that 28kish (due to safety netting) tickets to home fans. So as I said, if we are extending SS and not making both tiers of BL away fans, we aren't going to have the demand.

I'm curious, when have SUFC ever sold 38k tickets to a match? Any match, any venue, when? Never. We sell about 32k with every man, women & dog roped in. Wednesday did about 38k when they played Hull in the play offs. Like it or not they can get more through the turnstiles than us. As an indicative figure, Aston Villa this season, bigger city, a bigger club, better ground, far better hospitality, recent history of bigger gates and more successful, have averaged 31k.

The proposed work to the south stand would have minimal impact on the matchday experience, they'd construct in the same was as Liverpool have constructed their new tier. It would lead to a reduction in car parking spaces, but not seating.

Invest all available monies in the playing squad, get the team promoted, put up prices to reflect higher league, get the club established, benefit from the TV money & extend the ground. It's got fuck all to do with 'little old Sheff Utd mentality' and more to do with common sense.
 
stringjunior said:
To clarify. No. That would be silly. The bit where I said "assuming an attractive product" I thought covered it. But to be clecl when I said attractive product I was thinking along the lines of premier league football or at least challenging regularly for promotion from the championship.

And yes, I'm fully aware of clubs who sell out every week, but they are mainly huge brands which have demand massively outstripping supply.

And the 90% thing isn't a rule, it's a theory.
Click to expand...

Apologies, I had to clarify your comment. I had a theory about you, and wanted to rule it out. :)
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
Perhaps i've got my maths wrong, but during the premiership season, BL lower was over 3k away fans? If so, we never sold more that 28kish (due to safety netting) tickets to home fans. So as I said, if we are extending SS and not making both tiers of BL away fans, we aren't going to have the demand.

I'm curious, when have SUFC ever sold 38k tickets to a match? Any match, any venue, when? Never. We sell about 32k with every man, women & dog roped in. Wednesday did about 38k when they played Hull in the play offs. Like it or not they can get more through the turnstiles than us. As an indicative figure, Aston Villa this season, bigger city, a bigger club, better ground, far better hospitality, recent history of bigger gates and more successful, have averaged 31k.

The proposed work to the south stand would have minimal impact on the matchday experience, they'd construct in the same was as Liverpool have constructed their new tier. It would lead to a reduction in car parking spaces, but not seating.

Invest all available monies in the playing squad, get the team promoted, put up prices to reflect higher league, get the club established, benefit from the TV money & extend the ground. It's got fuck all to do with 'little old Sheff Utd mentality' and more to do with common sense.
Click to expand...

Yes your maths are wrong, we started off thinking of giving some teams both tiers at the lane end but we had to get permission from the Premier league to only give away fans the lower tier as it was just short of the 3000 capacity required. There were no seats netted off that season even the lower part of H block was used I know I sat there take 2990 of the capacity of 32700 and you are selling to very close on 30,000 home fans.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
Perhaps i've got my maths wrong, but during the premiership season, BL lower was over 3k away fans? If so, we never sold more that 28kish (due to safety netting) tickets to home fans. So as I said, if we are extending SS and not making both tiers of BL away fans, we aren't going to have the demand.

I'm curious, when have SUFC ever sold 38k tickets to a match? Any match, any venue, when? Never. We sell about 32k with every man, women & dog roped in. Wednesday did about 38k when they played Hull in the play offs. Like it or not they can get more through the turnstiles than us. As an indicative figure, Aston Villa this season, bigger city, a bigger club, better ground, far better hospitality, recent history of bigger gates and more successful, have averaged 31k.

The proposed work to the south stand would have minimal impact on the matchday experience, they'd construct in the same was as Liverpool have constructed their new tier. It would lead to a reduction in car parking spaces, but not seating.

Invest all available monies in the playing squad, get the team promoted, put up prices to reflect higher league, get the club established, benefit from the TV money & extend the ground. It's got fuck all to do with 'little old Sheff Utd mentality' and more to do with common sense.
Click to expand...


Check out the gates in the 70/71 promotion season and we had 40k plus gates towards the end.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
At least 10 years older than you i suspect.

The 1st season that the Riverside opened was the first season Boro played in the prem. In 2010 the first season they got relegated, they took 10k off their average home attendance, and the season after, another 3.5k, so 13.5k in two seasons between the 2 divisions.

Southampton were playing in the premier league in a 15k capacity stadium, they were selling it out and could obviously sell more.

Leicester's attendances remained roughly the same (save for a 2 season spike) until the last 3 seasons which corresponds with them playing in the prem. As an example, they did 20.5k at filbert street in 1999, and the same figure at king power in 2009.

All 3 clubs went from 15kish to 30kish in the top division, a similar attendance to what we got & in line with half the prem.

Which were the 6 games we could've shifted 40k tickets? Liverpool 31,726. Man Utd 32,584. Wigan 32,604. Chelsea 32,321. Man City 32,591. Arsenal 32,086. Spurs 32,144. I suspect Man Utd out of that list was our only sell out game that season. I doubt we've ever shifted 40k home tickets for a match. We got 31,796 for the last FA Cup Semi and i don't think we sold out. I've not got the exact number but we didn't take 40k to wembley in '93. So we'd be extending the SS, to accommodate home fans from BLU, to give both tiers to away fans to sell a larger allocation?
Click to expand...


To be fair NC , if you'd have told me we'd be averaging 26 and a half thousand in the second tier of English football when McCabe first took the helm at our Club I'd have told you you were either crazy or just plain stupid .

The whole ' what we could average or should average ' when/If the ground expansion happens is a moot point anyway as it's pretty much clear that no expansion would happen untill PL promotion was secured anyway .

For what it's worth though I'm glad McCabe sees the overall infrastructure of the ground as a fundamental part of his tenure . You, like me and many others on here will remember the years of Happy Harry, Sabella and a whole new dawn for us Blades . Money being thrown at the playing side whilst the ground virtually disintegrated around us . Sabella showing his class in the first half then wading ankle deep in piss at the bogs during the half time interval . They were great days !

The South Stand should be the stand that's developed first IF we get an extended run in the PL imo . A Kop redevelopment first with a projected ROI of 20 years or so would be complete financial madness . But absolutely none of this should happen unless promotion to the PL is secured . But thats not because I'm firmly of the belief that the 40 million or so for proposed ground improvents should be used for team building and team building only . It's more down to prudent and sensible investment .
 



WORKSOPBLADE said:
Check out the gates in the 70/71 promotion season and we had 40k plus gates towards the end.
Click to expand...

I’ll need to check. We averaged 25k that season I think. I was meaning more in recent times (since 1990), but I’ll include the 70’s. ;)
 
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