Pathway for Youth.

[Silent Blade]

I have said before and i will say again, you have no idea what fees we got for the players you have mentioned. You also have no idea how much it costs to run the academy and what funds they receive in grants or sponsorship. Its all guess work.
Once you have this information then i think everyone will listen to your argument... At the moment its just another lame excuse to try and pinpoint why we have been shite for 6 years....
i would suggest looking closer at under performing professional footballers on stupid wages and under performing managers who have been by far a financial drain on the clubs finances than the academy...

The £35 per hour for each Academy coach is true.......

 

[Pinchy]

Sorry Pinchy I'm going to have to do this: Osgood 5 caps, Hudson 2 caps, George 1 cap, Todd 27 caps, Currie 15 caps. we'll give you Moore, Ball and Charlton (presumably Bobby though).

Maybe: Gaga, Lager, Aga, Saga, gaga??!!

Calvert-Lewin plays for Everton by the way, you could easily see him in Iceland (3 International goals this week and all). Some of those players you mention hardly played for the International younger teams never mind score goals for them!!

Stick to Blades stuff old lad and comment on my post 91 on here.

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

 

[Sean Thornton]

most are talking as if the entire cost of Shirecliffe relates to the academy. It clearly doesn't as the first team squad train there and we need somewhere to train. There are no figures giving a breakdown of total costs for Shirecliffe let alone a breakdown between academy and first team costs. So it's all guess work.
I know soneone who's son has just left the academy because he didn't like the pressure it entailed. His father has been told he can't register for another professional club unless United recover there costs which run into four figures. It's not all expense.

 

[PeteBlade]

I'd be interested to see where that comes from?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest it came from the players we sold.

 

[PeteBlade]

The building of the Academy and the running costs since 2001 is probably a lot more than £25M!

Probably?

Personally, I think if you're going to make this sort of point, you need a ball park figure or at least have a general idea.

 

[PeteBlade]

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

You don't think there's a chance you look back on 'the golden years' with a slight case of rose tinted glasses?

Like that old ex girlfriend you remember as perfect?

 

[alcoblade]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest it came from the players we sold.

Very Good. I think Silent worked it out though.

UTB

 

[Snowman]

Did anybody mention Winalot in the Pinchy punfest?

 

[Ted Hemsleys chads]

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

You have been known to spout complete bollocks on occasion Pinchington, but you're 100% bang on the money with this one. The current England team is as bad as any England team has ever been. No talent, no brains, no bottle. Just a bunch of over paid, over hyped chancers making a ridiculously good living by being average at a time when average is acceptable.

 

[larkymasher]

The £35 per hour for each Academy coach is true.......

The academy coaches are employed on a full time contract or on a part time contract.

None of them charge the academy on an hourly rate, and to even suggest it is misleading and wrong. Some of the coaches even coach for free as it gives them their coaching hours required to get their A Licence qualifications.

 

[alcoblade]

I have said before and i will say again, you have no idea what fees we got for the players you have mentioned. You also have no idea how much it costs to run the academy and what funds they receive in grants or sponsorship. Its all guess work.
Once you have this information then i think everyone will listen to your argument... At the moment its just another lame excuse to try and pinpoint why we have been shite for 6 years....
i would suggest looking closer at under performing professional footballers on stupid wages and under performing managers who have been by far a financial drain on the clubs finances than the academy...

Surely it's just a discussion about the academy, not a wholesale review of the club's plight.

I don't think the academy's harshest critics, such as Silent or me, believe the academy has led us to this place. I would argue that it's part of a long series of bad decisions and priorities that have led us here though.

UTB

 

[yamyamblade]

Having been around academy football last few years I know for a fact the money paid to all coaches is a poor, Not SUFC specific but I knew a head of foundation phase (U9 to U11) who left his role to work at a warehouse as the money was better, he did a 5 day week including weekends/late nights etc for c£20k

 

[Revolution]

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

There's also the fact that Osgood, Hudson and George drank their careers out of the England set up

 

[1danewhitehouse]

How many top division games have players from our Academy (since it started in 2001- dont include Monty, Jags and Tonge as they werent products from our Academy) have made?

From this youth squad in 1964 alone the players have played over 2000 top division games. Mick Jones won a League champions medal twice, won a UEFA Cup medal twice, won the FA Cup

Does Squinny count? Think he joined as a teen from an Irish club? Not sure what stage of his development that happened.


Walker

Naughton

Lowton

Maguire


Would be the players we’ve produced that have reached the top flight. Walker I imagine would have the most games at that level. Don’t know the total though.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

But perhaps Chapman is a different type of player to Brooks?
And which other players have we brought in as cover play in a position where there was already a promising youth? Wilson? CW said he didn't think Semple is ready yet (he's already playing at U23 level at a young age) and CH is a position you don't want to take too many risks with.

I wasn’t saying categorically that we shouldn’t have signed Chapman. Just that is a possible example of where we might have managed without such a signing. You could possibly argue that we could cope without Hussey and Fleck as they’re not starting games when everyone is fit and that Kelly and Whiteman/Scougall could have provided cover. Again, I’m not saying we’re wrong to sign these players, just that we might be when offsetting the opportunity cost of what we might have been able to sign for the first team with the spend.


As I say, we won’t really know until we have the benefit of hindsight. Whilst we're winning, I won't be complaining

 

[1danewhitehouse]

With the new loan rules that 'balancing act' is even more critical as cover for injuries can no longer be added other than in January so the manager has to play safe on the numbers.

Releasing so many players last summer meant we had to import so many new faces and the young lads will be disappointed they have not become more involved in the first team in those circumstances. However as a few say above, Wilder is under pressure for results in the short term and that's part of managing a bigger club.

Results are better than performances of late and I expect most of our new signings to improve considerably, otherwise a couple of young lads will get game time before long.

I don’t think it’s consistently true that our results are better than performances. By all accounts, we battered Fleetwood but only took a point, should have won by more at Wimbledon etc. But we had to hang on a bit against Posh and Bristol Rovers at home.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The scene shifts to Bramall Lane, Sheffield, three points later...

http://www.skysports.com/watch/vide.../10596463/sheffield-united-1-0-bristol-rovers

If we’re calling that empirical evidence that we should have signed him (I’m not saying we shouldn’t by the way- he was an example and I said ‘perhaps’) then thank fuck we signed James Thomas when we sold Marcus Bent. Utter gash but he scored a winning goal for us once. Higdon and Sammon too.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Both would have walked into any Harris side .

Walkers arguably the best right back to ever play for the Club ..... panto costume aside of course

Badger and co were before my time but Walker and Jags both easily make it into my best blades 11 of my lifetime. Jags would get in the team in a couple of positions if he could duplicate himself.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

 

[Silent Blade]

Does Squinny count? Think he joined as a teen from an Irish club? Not sure what stage of his development that happened.


Walker

Naughton

Lowton

Maguire


Would be the players we’ve produced that have reached the top flight. Walker I imagine would have the most games at that level. Don’t know the total though.

Steve Quinn was signed from St Patrick's Athletic when he was 19 in 2005.

Matt Lowton joined our Academy when he was 15 in 2004

The two Kyles were at our Academy since they were 9, not sure about Maguire (think I read that he had been there since he was 12)

 

[sheffielder]

All this pathway debate is a waste of time.

Any young player will eventually get his chance if the manager thinks he is good enough. He will bring them through as and when he thinks it is the right time or the right game.
CW rates Brookes and Semple. Hence Brookes making his senior debut and Semple being on the bench last Tuesday. This is CW introducing these two lads in a measured way.
It is very clear that Whiteman has not impressed CW nor has Reed.

Football is about opinions, whether a player is 17 or 35 the manager must make his own choice whether to play them.

Is this the way players get developed at a young age? If you're good enough you will play, if you're not you won't?

 

[BushBlade]

I wasn’t saying categorically that we shouldn’t have signed Chapman. Just that is a possible example of where we might have managed without such a signing. You could possibly argue that we could cope without Hussey and Fleck as they’re not starting games when everyone is fit and that Kelly and Whiteman/Scougall could have provided cover. Again, I’m not saying we’re wrong to sign these players, just that we might be when offsetting the opportunity cost of what we might have been able to sign for the first team with the spend.


As I say, we won’t really know until we have the benefit of hindsight. Whilst we're winning, I won't be complaining

When we signed Hussey we had no left backs (assuming KWall was already half way out of the door) so I'm not sure we can say he shouldn't have signed him. He's not turned out great so far, hence Lafferty being brought in. We certainly couldn't have started the season with Kelly alone and CW wasn't in the position to even properly assess Kelly at the time he had to make a decision.

As for Fleck, Coutts was listed and had anyone come in for him would have been sold. Whiteman is unproven and Scougall isn't decent cover for that role, or Basham's role.

Irrespective of hindsight, there isn't one youth team player who has shown that they can be relied on as cover for any position so at the time CW made the decisions on signings, based on the information he had available, his decisions to bring players in were correct.

 

[JohnDenver]

Steve Quinn was signed from St Patrick's Athletic when he was 19 in 2005.

Matt Lowton joined our Academy when he was 15 in 2004

The two Kyles were at our Academy since they were 9, not sure about Maguire (think I read that he had been there since he was 12)

Didn't Maguire come from Luton's youth scheme at a young age? Vague recollection...

 

[Silent Blade]

Didn't Maguire come from Luton's youth scheme at a young age? Vague recollection...

That would surprise me as I know he was a pupil at St Mary's school in Chesterfield and I am not sure when the ruling of not allowing Academies to sign anyone who live more than 35 miles away from the club started

 

[Pinchy]

No nostalgia needed to assess the England team of the Everton player's era as utter garbage.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

When we signed Hussey we had no left backs (assuming KWall was already half way out of the door) so I'm not sure we can say he shouldn't have signed him. He's not turned out great so far, hence Lafferty being brought in. We certainly couldn't have started the season with Kelly alone and CW wasn't in the position to even properly assess Kelly at the time he had to make a decision.

As for Fleck, Coutts was listed and had anyone come in for him would have been sold. Whiteman is unproven and Scougall isn't decent cover for that role, or Basham's role.

Irrespective of hindsight, there isn't one youth team player who has shown that they can be relied on as cover for any position so at the time CW made the decisions on signings, based on the information he had available, his decisions to bring players in were correct.

I'd agree with most of that with the exception of Hussey. To me, he looks a worse player than Kieron Wallace who was probably on less money and we paid an undisclosed fee for Hussey. With what we have spent on Hussey and Lafferty, perhaps we could have combined the funds for a better player for that position and kept K. Wallace and/or Kelly as back up. However, I'm sure Wilder signed Hussey thinking he would do better than he has so far. As I say, easier to say with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'd agree with most of that with the exception of Hussey. To me, he looks a worse player than Kieron Wallace who was probably on less money and we paid an undisclosed fee for Hussey. With what we have spent on Hussey and Lafferty, perhaps we could have combined the funds for a better player for that position and kept K. Wallace and/or Kelly as back up. However, I'm sure Wilder signed Hussey thinking he would do better than he has so far. As I say, easier to say with the benefit of hindsight.

It's also early days in fairness and he made the equaliser at Fleetwood which will help him settle that bit more.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The number of caps you quote simply demonstrates how hard it was for players far more talented than the latest Golden Generation to play for England in those days. It illustrates that England are now utterly shite and mediocrities can clock up multiple appearances.

Your research supports my argument and for that I am grateful.

Again silly me Pinchy and I thought you said that they "were up against better opposition far more often" or something like , in fact you did.

 

[BushBlade]

I'd agree with most of that with the exception of Hussey. To me, he looks a worse player than Kieron Wallace who was probably on less money and we paid an undisclosed fee for Hussey. With what we have spent on Hussey and Lafferty, perhaps we could have combined the funds for a better player for that position and kept K. Wallace and/or Kelly as back up. However, I'm sure Wilder signed Hussey thinking he would do better than he has so far. As I say, easier to say with the benefit of hindsight.

I don't think Wallace has been bombed out for football reasons. As, you say, he wasn't that bad.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I don't think Wallace has been bombed out for football reasons. As, you say, he wasn't that bad.

Agree, wonder why he hasn't played for Fleetwood yet?