The enigma that is Paul Coutts

[Grappler]

OK Sitwell, I'll give you my guesses and a total payroll of £6m for permanent contracts which I think might be about right
£3k a week - Whiteman, Lewin, McGahey.
£4k a week - Kennedy, Long, Harris, Howard, Scougall, K.Wallace, Reed, Freeman, Ryce,
£5k a week - McNulty, Adams, McEveley, Basham, J.Wallace, Baxter,
£6k a week - Coutts, Cuvelier, Woolford.
£7k a week - Done
£8k a week - Sharp
£9k a week - Brayford

Add to those the wages for loanees which are anybody's guess:

Baptiste £4k, Edgar £5k, Hammond £10k, Sammon £8k,

Annualised that is £1.8m

Total £7.8m per annum on players wages. I have not defrayed the recompense in respect of our players' wages paid by clubs who have taken our players on loan but they are all League 2 clubs when all is said and done and not loads of cash to throw around.

Is there any wonder that the Board have taken the opposite opinion of our un-named posters who are simply stupid to say that the Board should have financed the signing of "just a couple of quality signings that would make all the difference to the chase for promotion". FFS, the Board have done that time and again, particularly 'in the JTW 2015 and nothing happened yet again.

Adkins is to some degree a victim of all these circumstances but he has added to the problem and the annual wage bill to the tune of £41 k per week i.e. £2.15 m per annum with the only perceivable benefit of Billy Sharp's goals and diddly-squat else. For what the rest of his signings have added we would have been just as well served by Kennedy, Reed, Lewin, Diego, McNulty, Freeman, Harris, even Higdon in the case of Sammon!!- at much less expense.

Absolute fucking shambles actually. If I was on the Board I'd be one of those saying and believing "if that's the best these managers can do, would I be better doing it myself", well it can't be worse, or could it, don't even comment!!

I realise you are just guessing, but if that is anything like close to reality, then your last line sums it up quite simply......

"...Absolute fucking shambles ..."

Does anyone think that players, other than maybe Wigan players, would be on anything like that? Little old Burton Albion? Gillingham?

 

[Woodwardfan]

I realise you are just guessing, but if that is anything like close to reality, then your last line sums it up quite simply......

"...Absolute fucking shambles ..."

Does anyone think that players, other than maybe Wigan players, would be on anything like that? Little old Burton Albion? Gillingham?

I very much hope the figures are wrong but I fear that this is the direct result of the Clough dynasty plus a big gamble/investment in loan players and Sharp this season on a big push for promotion

 

[Woodwardfan]

Missed out Flynn - £5k a week.= £260k per annum.

 

[sitwell]

I very much hope the figures are wrong but I fear that this is the direct result of the Clough dynasty plus a big gamble/investment in loan players and Sharp this season on a big push for promotion

If you are right only Brayford who was as much a Phipps/McCabe/Prince signing which everyone welcomed Coutts and Done are in your top 10 earners are Clough signings.

 

[Woodwardfan]

If you are right only Brayford who was as much a Phipps/McCabe/Prince signing which everyone welcomed Coutts and Done are in your top 10 earners are Clough signings.

Hey Sitwell, further the debate, it's a key to all this nonsense about an unambitious Board. Discredit the figures, whatever, but let nobody on a serious thread say we have not been spending the cash and that there are anybody other than the various managers to blame.

Stated above is my view of the wage bill. It might be 20% overstated, but that's not the point. It is way, way above Burton, Bradford, Gillingham, Barnsley, Scunthorpe, Rochdale and Walsall.

Good, honest debate plaease. Not you particularly Sitwell, those others who know who they are.

 

[Woodwardfan]

If you are right only Brayford who was as much a Phipps/McCabe/Prince signing which everyone welcomed Coutts and Done are in your top 10 earners are Clough signings.

I think I covered that to some degree by saying Adkins had spent over £2m on 20 goals from Sharp and not much from his other signings.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I reckon, with the exception of Wigan and Millwall, most annual wage bills in this league will be around £3m.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I reckon, with the exception of Wigan and Millwall, most annual wage bills in this league will be around £3m.

What the fixation on financial annual wage bills . The name of the game will be good governance by good scouting . Turnbull is the key .

UTB

 

[sitwell]

Hey Sitwell, further the debate, it's a key to all this nonsense about an unambitious Board. Discredit the figures, whatever, but let nobody on a serious thread say we have not been spending the cash and that there are anybody other than the various managers to blame.

Stated above is my view of the wage bill. It might be 20% overstated, but that's not the point. It is way, way above Burton, Bradford, Gillingham, Barnsley, Scunthorpe, Rochdale and Walsall.

Good, honest debate plaease. Not you particularly Sitwell, those others who know who they are.

I think you've understated it to be honest.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think you've understated it to be honest.

Seriously Blades, I invite all those very convicted posters on here who have freely said over a period of months and months, in fact years, that KM and now the prince have held us back.

Above is a guesstimate of the wage bill which is the main cost. Do they seriously think that our owners and our Board should spend more than that when our competitors in this division, apart from Wigan and maybe Millwall, spend next to half as much.

I've asked PeteBlade to comment because I know he rushes to his keyboard to hve his go at the Board at every opportuniyt, always rhetoric, never reason,facts or figures. Simple question to Pete and any others - Is it not enough - over £7m on wages ( plus the Sharp transfer fee £500k?) when our competitors are generally spending £3m?

Sean, you're the detail expert and an ally of Pete regularly, are the figures in the right 'ball park'?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Missed out Flynn - £5k a week.= £260k per annum.

I thought he came to us in July 2011 in time for our first season in Div1. If so I doubt he was on championship wages. £5k a week sounds a bit high to me especially as he had Quinn to compete with.

The loan players are interesting because if we managed to haggle successfully for them and only had to pay a low proportion of their wages (thus lessoning their impact on the wage bill and FFP) it would make signing them on permanent contracts (albeit reduced from their previous earnings) even more serious as this would impact severely on what money would be left to strengthen the team. Supposing Hammond is on £22k currently and he takes a 50% pay cut we would have to get rid of probably 2 to 3 of the out of contract players (£11k wages) just to pay for him as I am sure I read from someone on here that we did get a very good deal for the loan.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I thought he came to us in July 2011 in time for our first season in Div1. If so I doubt he was on championship wages. £5k a week sounds a bit high to me especially as he had Quinn to compete with.

The loan players are interesting because if we managed to haggle successfully for them and only had to pay a low proportion of their wages (thus lessoning their impact on the wage bill and FFP) it would make signing them on permanent contracts (albeit reduced from their previous earnings) even more serious as this would impact severely on what money would be left to strengthen the team. Supposing Hammond is on £22k currently and he takes a 50% pay cut we would have to get rid of probably 2 to 3 of the out of contract players (£11k wages) just to pay for him as I am sure I read from someone on here that we did get a very good deal for the loan.

I agree but Sitwell's view that he was on £8k influenced me. £5k may be about right but certainly no more IMO.

 

[Revolution]

I agree but Sitwell's view that he was on £8k influenced me. £5k may be about right but certainly no more IMO.

I don't know what Flynn is on, but I do know that in a moment of jaw dropping incompetence, Clough rejected a bid for Flynn from Brighton in the summer of 2014 and gave him an improved deal....

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'd be very surprised if McEveley was a high earner. He was on the scrap heap with nobody picking him up by the end of the summer after being released by the mighty Swindon. He was then renewed it seemed as a last ditch change of heart after Brayford's injury. I think he will be amongst the lower paid of the experienced players.

I'd also be astounded if DCL, Whiteman etc. were on anywhere near £3k per week. I reckon £1-1.5k is much more likely for these kids.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I don't know what Flynn is on, but I do know that in a moment of jaw dropping incompetence, Clough rejected a bid for Flynn from Brighton in the summer of 2014 and gave him an improved deal....

As he was out of contract, surely Brighton could have just took him on a free with better wages?

Flynn was playing well at the time (last couple of months of his contract) and it seemed Clough had transformed him into a very good league 1 player. Unfortunately he reverted to type (average, rarely beating a man etc.).

 

[Revolution]

As he was out of contract, surely Brighton could have just took him on a free with better wages?

Flynn was playing well at the time (last couple of months of his contract) and it seemed Clough had transformed him into a very good league 1 player. Unfortunately he reverted to type (average, rarely beating a man etc.).

He wasn't out of contract: his existing deal was extended.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

He wasn't out of contract: his existing deal was extended.

but it was due to expire that summer wasn't it meaning he was free to discuss terms with other clubs? Some contracts have triggers the club can activate to extend but that's usually a year whereas Flynn signed on for another 2.

 

[Esablade]

OK Sitwell, I'll give you my guesses and a total payroll of £6m for permanent contracts which I think might be about right
£3k a week - Whiteman, Lewin, McGahey.
£4k a week - Kennedy, Long, Harris, Howard, Scougall, K.Wallace, Reed, Freeman, Ryce,
£5k a week - McNulty, Adams, McEveley, Basham, J.Wallace, Baxter,
£6k a week - Coutts, Cuvelier, Woolford.
£7k a week - Done
£8k a week - Sharp
£9k a week - Brayford

Add to those the wages for loanees which are anybody's guess:

Baptiste £4k, Edgar £5k, Hammond £10k, Sammon £8k,

Annualised that is £1.8m

Total £7.8m per annum on players wages. I have not defrayed the recompense in respect of our players' wages paid by clubs who have taken our players on loan but they are all League 2 clubs when all is said and done and not loads of cash to throw around.

Is there any wonder that the Board have taken the opposite opinion of our un-named posters who are simply stupid to say that the Board should have financed the signing of "just a couple of quality signings that would make all the difference to the chase for promotion". FFS, the Board have done that time and again, particularly 'in the JTW 2015 and nothing happened yet again.

Adkins is to some degree a victim of all these circumstances but he has added to the problem and the annual wage bill to the tune of £41 k per week i.e. £2.15 m per annum with the only perceivable benefit of Billy Sharp's goals and diddly-squat else. For what the rest of his signings have added we would have been just as well served by Kennedy, Reed, Lewin, Diego, McNulty, Freeman, Harris, even Higdon in the case of Sammon!!- at much less expense.

Absolute fucking shambles actually. If I was on the Board I'd be one of those saying and believing "if that's the best these managers can do, would I be better doing it myself", well it can't be worse, or could it, don't even comment!!

I blame Princey...McCabe was doing his 'austerity' bit, the wage bill was going down...then Princey arrived with his 'Liverpool investment' and it's sign, sign,sign....wage bill shoots up!

 

[BushBlade]

I blame Princey...McCabe was doing his 'austerity' bit, the wage bill was going down...then Princey arrived with his 'Liverpool investment' and it's sign, sign,sign....wage bill shoots up!

Whose idea was it to give the money to a former England international with a questionable managerial record and let him piss it all away? And at what point should someone at the club have said 'hang on, haven't we done this before?'

Personally, I think there are very few rational people who don't accept we've spent money. The evidence is that we have. We've just completely wasted it. That doesn't absolve the board of their other responsibilities though.

 

[Revolution]

I blame Princey...McCabe was doing his 'austerity' bit, the wage bill was going down...then Princey arrived with his 'Liverpool investment' and it's sign, sign,sign....wage bill shoots up!

And we were getting relegated with that "austerity" plan. Have you forgotten already? The budget had to go up so we could stay up after David Weir's disastrous tenure.

 

[Esablade]

And we were getting relegated with that "austerity" plan. Have you forgotten already? The budget had to go up so we could stay up after David Weir's disastrous tenure.

Yeah...I forgot
Who appointed Weir though?

 

[Revolution]

Yeah...I forgot
Who appointed Weir though?

Don't get me started...

 

[robbiez666]

Thought I'd bump and old post instead of posting another Coutts one.

I'm confused how Coutts has suddenly become the answer after a good game and 45 minutes. Where he created no chances and scored no goals, and much of which against a team with no need or no midfield to close him down.

He's proved since he came here that:

He can't score
He creates nothing
He's slow
He's immobile
He can't (and won't) tackle
He can't mark

As he can't tackle, run or mark his job will be the playmaker. The playmaker who hasn't scored for us and has maybe created two goals in 52 appearances for us.

Granted, he's a very good technical player who is good at holding the ball up and keeping the ball. He's neat and tidy and can play short accurate passes. This isn't particularly difficult when you're playing constant easy passes (mostly sideways or backwards).

Compare him to Baxter, someone who offered a similar lack of mobility/tackling/marking. He at least scored a fair few and set-up most of our chances.

We must be desperate if people genuinely think he can play in the middle next to Fleck. He provides no actual useful function at this level.

He also can't play the way Wilder (allegedly) wants to, which makes his inclusion and sudden second coming baffling.

He's on high wages and we should get rid as soon as we can. He's entirely useless in this division, and to be fair, would probably fair better in the Championship/Scotland.

If you look at the best playmakers, such as David Silva, they may play a lot of short passes but they're constantly buzzing around and offering themselves for the ball, chasing after players and generally working for the team.

Freeman is another one. One decent performance and suddenly he's a solution at right back. Next up K Wallace and Scougal.

The only thing relying on Coutts in the centre will get us is relegation.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Thought I'd bump and old post instead of posting another Coutts one.

I'm confused how Coutts has suddenly become the answer after a good game and 45 minutes. Where he created no chances and scored no goals, and much of which against a team with no need or no midfield to close him down.

He's proved since he came here that:

He can't score
He creates nothing
He's slow
He's immobile
He can't (and won't) tackle
He can't mark

As he can't tackle, run or mark his job will be the playmaker. The playmaker who hasn't scored for us and has maybe created two goals in 52 appearances for us.

Granted, he's a very good technical player who is good at holding the ball up and keeping the ball. He's neat and tidy and can play short accurate passes. This isn't particularly difficult when you're playing constant easy passes (mostly sideways or backwards).

Compare him to Baxter, someone who offered a similar lack of mobility/tackling/marking. He at least scored a fair few and set-up most of our chances.

We must be desperate if people genuinely think he can play in the middle next to Fleck. He provides no actual useful function at this level.

He also can't play the way Wilder (allegedly) wants to, which makes his inclusion and sudden second coming baffling.

He's on high wages and we should get rid as soon as we can. He's entirely useless in this division, and to be fair, would probably fair better in the Championship/Scotland.

If you look at the best playmakers, such as David Silva, they may play a lot of short passes but they're constantly buzzing around and offering themselves for the ball, chasing after players and generally working for the team.

Freeman is another one. One decent performance and suddenly he's a solution at right back. Next up K Wallace and Scougal.

The only thing relying on Coutts in the centre will get us is relegation.

At least in the old days we used to wait until McCabe sold players before we reinvented them as good or great. Now we're doing it while they're still here.

 

[robbiez666]

At least in the old days we used to wait until McCabe sold players before we reinvented them as good or great. Now we're doing it while they're still here.

I'm hoping it's a cunning plan to fool any scouts or managers who take a peek at the forum

That Keiron Freeman, he's now officially the best right back in the league.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Thought I'd bump and old post instead of posting another Coutts one.

I'm confused how Coutts has suddenly become the answer after a good game and 45 minutes. Where he created no chances and scored no goals, and much of which against a team with no need or no midfield to close him down.

He's proved since he came here that:

He can't score
He creates nothing
He's slow
He's immobile
He can't (and won't) tackle
He can't mark

As he can't tackle, run or mark his job will be the playmaker. The playmaker who hasn't scored for us and has maybe created two goals in 52 appearances for us.

Granted, he's a very good technical player who is good at holding the ball up and keeping the ball. He's neat and tidy and can play short accurate passes. This isn't particularly difficult when you're playing constant easy passes (mostly sideways or backwards).

Compare him to Baxter, someone who offered a similar lack of mobility/tackling/marking. He at least scored a fair few and set-up most of our chances.

We must be desperate if people genuinely think he can play in the middle next to Fleck. He provides no actual useful function at this level.

He also can't play the way Wilder (allegedly) wants to, which makes his inclusion and sudden second coming baffling.

He's on high wages and we should get rid as soon as we can. He's entirely useless in this division, and to be fair, would probably fair better in the Championship/Scotland.

If you look at the best playmakers, such as David Silva, they may play a lot of short passes but they're constantly buzzing around and offering themselves for the ball, chasing after players and generally working for the team.

Freeman is another one. One decent performance and suddenly he's a solution at right back. Next up K Wallace and Scougal.

The only thing relying on Coutts in the centre will get us is relegation.

No strong feeling either way on Coutts. Hasn't played that well for us and you can't argue he's represented value for money but you can clearly see there is talent there.

Players have said he's he best technically at the club.

So you can see why people might be kean to try and find a formation that suits him. I feel like he might do a job (and let's not beat about the bush - we have no money so 'do a job' is all we can hope for) in a 4-3-3 with fleck and basham (shudder)

We might actually keep hold of the ball for more than 2 seconds that way.

Didn't think freeman dos much wrong last year

 

[Dnblade]

Thought I'd bump and old post instead of posting another Coutts one.

I'm confused how Coutts has suddenly become the answer after a good game and 45 minutes. Where he created no chances and scored no goals, and much of which against a team with no need or no midfield to close him down.

He's proved since he came here that:

He can't score
He creates nothing
He's slow
He's immobile
He can't (and won't) tackle
He can't mark

As he can't tackle, run or mark his job will be the playmaker. The playmaker who hasn't scored for us and has maybe created two goals in 52 appearances for us.

Granted, he's a very good technical player who is good at holding the ball up and keeping the ball. He's neat and tidy and can play short accurate passes. This isn't particularly difficult when you're playing constant easy passes (mostly sideways or backwards).

Compare him to Baxter, someone who offered a similar lack of mobility/tackling/marking. He at least scored a fair few and set-up most of our chances.

We must be desperate if people genuinely think he can play in the middle next to Fleck. He provides no actual useful function at this level.

He also can't play the way Wilder (allegedly) wants to, which makes his inclusion and sudden second coming baffling.

He's on high wages and we should get rid as soon as we can. He's entirely useless in this division, and to be fair, would probably fair better in the Championship/Scotland.

If you look at the best playmakers, such as David Silva, they may play a lot of short passes but they're constantly buzzing around and offering themselves for the ball, chasing after players and generally working for the team.

Freeman is another one. One decent performance and suddenly he's a solution at right back. Next up K Wallace and Scougal.

The only thing relying on Coutts in the centre will get us is relegation.

Only seen it on BP but he did play one great ball into Sharp who was deemed offside...but like when Baxter played a similar roll at the start of last season,he's picking the ball up deep..the one who starts us off or play through,and because of that he often isn't the one to provide the assist...he's more likely to be the one who starts the move,or plays the ball to the man providing the assist...He can ofcourse join the attack if the attack goes into a second phase,but often it's already broken down by then...Maybe we could play him there with Fleck further up the pitch in the middle of the 3 behind the striker if we're playing 4231.
On Freeman..always thought he was unlucky being dropped when Brayford came back...He wasn't outstanding on Saturday but kept the ball well,linked up well and got an assist...did ok defensively aswell...and probably not quite upto speed fitness wise.

 

[robbiez666]

Wait, there's a thread wanting to sell Billy because he's had a bat start to the season but Coutts is fine because he's played 1.5 good games despite 2 bad seasons?

 

[Dnblade]

Wait, there's a thread wanting to sell Billy because he's had a bat start to the season but Coutts is fine because he's played 1.5 good games despite 2 bad seasons?

Fair enough,but we'll have to see if he can do it week in week out, but for me we need someone to knit things together in the middle of the park..don't care what he has or hasn't done in the past,it's what he does from now on under Wilder for me..not bothered if it's Coutts,Fleck or a new signing...Maybe he'll be dropped and Fleck comes back in that roll..I would like someone other than Basham alongside though.

 

[Ricky]

He was too good for Oxford today. He barely gave the ball away once. He adds much needed composure and quality and enables us to build attacks through midfield.

At the moment we're better off with him in the team.

Despite his wages there are a few I'd get rid of before him.