Would a salary cap make the Prem fairer?

[Billy the Fish]

Hi guys, just asking for a couple of minutes of your time to complete a short survey. It's for my lad's uni dissertation and he's needing the input of as many fans as possible to get an idea of how the Premier League is working and what would make it fairer. Thanks in advance and good luck for the play-offs.

Could a salary cap be the answer to competitive imbalance within the English Premier League?

This survey aims to understand the reasoning behind the perceived competitive imbalance within the English Premier League and how this can be addressed in order to create a league with greater parity between teams. This specifically focuses on the idea of a salary cap and it's possible...

forms.gle

 

[Sheffsteel]

Simple answer NO

Because when there’s multiple millions at stake then it’s obvious the more powerful clubs will think of every legal or illegal way to get around the system.

Also what does fairer actually mean?

The league hasn’t been fair since it went professional in the 1890’s and the more money that’s ploughed into the game the more unfair it’s become.

However the best way to make it “fair” is to copy the MLS where the league owns the players…then I suppose you could have a draft system where the worse teams have the pick of the best players ensuring that the weak teams become stronger and the best teams become weaker.

But do we really want a league with total equality and fairness? Probably not.

 

[Bladesman]

They would likely circumnavigate a wage cap via "sponsorship deals" or bonus payments.

The wage cap should have come in about 30 odd years ago, I think that boat has sailed thanks to the creation of the Premier League.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I'd suggest he changes or ignores the question about whether people would prefer their teams to play competitive or uncompetitive games. A Leicester fan would give a different answer from a Liverpool fan, because everyone wants to win 5-0 but no-one wants to lose 0-5.

Simple answer - yes, it would make things more competitive, but no, it would be illegal under EU and UK law. Employers would find it very difficult to justify in law a restriction of other companies' abilities to pay their employees more. In the USA they get round it by a collective bargaining agreement whereby (for example) the 32 NFL owners are deemed to be trading as a single entity and all companies are under the same rules. That wouldn't work here.

 

[dexter101]

done.

I don't believe it would work in the modern game and if you look at the rugby, it just leads to players going elsewhere which would destroy the PL who are obsessed with european fixtures. (seriously, Europa conference... )

An American style system would be interesting but would completely tear up the grassroots and professional game and not sure there is the appetite for that.

As an aside, I actually think grassroots sports teams should be brought into schools and education systems to help create better wrap around childcare. same with music, drama, etc.

This potentially would also then help football academies by having more consistency bringing them through as well as better scheduled, off timetable time.

 

[Badger Blade]

I think the only way round it is for FFP to have fewer holes in it and for wages to be a % of turnover which is similar to how things work now. None of the Chansiri bullshit with fake D Taxis or clubs being owned by nation states being allowed.

Rugby League has a salary cap but is only any use to clubs who have the money to fulfil it which is why its usually always Wigan and St Helens somewhere near the front of the queue most years. Leeds had a golden generation of players where there were certain levels of exemption because most were through their academy, played internationally and other fully legal loopholes. I'm out of the inner circle now but I seem to remember that Castleford have never spent up to the cap because they just can't afford to and is why they're usually crap.

One thing the salary cap does provide is intelligent scouting, recruitment and squad management, i.e not what we were doing in years past. If you've spent up and finished near the bottom, its your fault down to poor coaching or signings, no excuses when it comes to investment or anything else so is a truer test of a coach's ability. Equally, it lends itself to patience (at times) with coaches where fans, owners, sponsors etc know that rebuilds have to happen and if you've signed someone on big money, someone else has to give.

Football salary cap would have the same problem because promoted clubs wouldn't be able to spend what Liverpool or Man City (other related issues apart) can. Also might mean more of the footballer farming going on where these clubs continue to hoover up all the kids and hope some come good to get them at a discount on the cap.

The only way a salary cap can be imposed is through franchising, equal shares of monies, marquee players which takes us into fully closed-shop territory like the MLS rather than the de-facto closed shop that we're starting to see.

 

[Fjortoft's Aeroplane]

Make the Premier League fairer by stopping the payments based on where you finish in the league. Paying those that finish 16th/17th significantly less than the more successful teams just serves to see gulf in class widen season by season. Just pay equal amounts to all 20 teams (+ the 3 newly promoted as an extra cash injection for them,).

 

[Nedski]

The premier league needs to go back to 3 subs to make it a bit fairer.

It's not fair that Liverpool can change half their outfield team, bringing on £200m worth of players, while the majority of teams don't have a starting 11 worth anywhere near that.

I honestly think the substition rule (brought in by some classic Klopp whinging and whining) bears a large proportion of the responsibility for the huge imbalance between the premier league and championship.

 

[Gimli]

Done.

I think the issue we have in English football is that everyone knows it is unbalanced but there’s not really much that can be done about it.

Salary caps would bring a host of different problems and (aside from probably breaking employment law) would almost certainly lead to nearly all of the players leaving to play in a league where they don’t have a cap.

When the European giants announced their plans for the European Super League there was rightly a lot of backlash and clearly that led to an embarrassing backtrack but the disparity between the top and bottom of the premier league and subsequently teams below the premier league means I think there’s a lot of clamour for the ‘big 6’ (hate the term) to just piss off and play in that super league now.

of course there is a lot of misunderstanding about the super league in that it wouldn’t actually mean those teams leaving the premier league anyway.

I think fans of teams that are in the ‘have nots’ category (anyone who doesn’t win owt) are always thinking about how to make things ‘fairer’ which really means how to balance things so that their team has more of a chance of winning things - everyone happy to moan about the richness of the premier league but ask most championship clubs if they’d be willing to sacrifice some of their revenue for the benefit of league 1/2 non league etc they’d probably say no.

The biggest issue is that at the moment the premier league is a fantastically successful product commercially. Ask the media and executives and they’d tell you things are better than ever so there’s absolutely no appetite for change from the top which is where it actually matters.

Anyway, thanks for posting the survey it’s an interesting topic and definitely got me thinking!

 

[Sheffsteel]

Make the Premier League fairer by stopping the payments based on where you finish in the league. Paying those that finish 16th/17th significantly less than the more successful teams just serves to see gulf in class widen season by season. Just pay equal amounts to all 20 teams (+ the 3 newly promoted as an extra cash injection for them,).

That would seem fair in theory

However the really big clubs Man Utd, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal etc know they’d receive far more money negotiating their own TV deal (like they do in Europe) because it’s those clubs that bring in the world wide interest and revenue.

The PL has done a compromise solution to ensure the lower clubs receive more money than what they’d receive going alone and they are giving financial incentives for finishing higher up the league as a sweetener to the bigger successful clubs.

Ideally the current PL would prefer a closed shop with no relegations and to a degree they’ve finally found a way to bring it in with the 5 subs from a bench of 7 rule, the time wasting added on rule and from next season the goalie holding the ball a max of 9 seconds rule.

 

[Gimli]

That would seem fair in theory

However the really big clubs Man Utd, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal etc know they’d receive far more money negotiating their own TV deal (like they do in Europe) because it’s those clubs that bring in the world wide interest and revenue.

The PL has done a compromise solution to ensure the lower clubs receive more money than what they’d receive going alone and they are giving financial incentives for finishing higher up the league.

Indeed. Really the premier league knows that it has to do something to at least keep a semblance of competitiveness which is why they have equal distribution of tv money for example.

The last couple of seasons of completely uncompetitive relegation battles will be a source of embarrassment though.

 

[Selly]

A salary cap simply isn`t going to work unless its worldwide. Even if you were to get a pan European agreement, you'd see the Saudi's outbidding everyone.

And even if there were a salary cap - you can guarantee that it would be set high enough that it wouldn`t actually make the bottom end of the PL any more competitive - as WHU (for example) won`t spend near the cap and neither would Burnley or us.

Its a blunt force implement that attempts to treat the symptom not the cause. If you want to make the PL more competitive (define that? does that mean more teams challenging for the title? more teams challenging for the CL spots? promoted teams being able to stay up?) then you have to reduce the disparity in resources between those at the top and the rest.

That means stopping teams hoovering up all the top talent. Limits on the number of players you can have registered. Limits on loans out (either a total number or a hard limit on the number of times a player can be loaned out from the same club). Reverting to 3 subs. Removal of VAR.

None of which will happen as the big fat Turkeys at the top of the PL are never going to vote for Christmas.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Indeed. Really the premier league knows that it has to do something to at least keep a semblance of competitiveness which is why they have equal distribution of tv money for example.

The last couple of seasons of completely uncompetitive relegation battles will be a source of embarrassment though.

I doubt the relegation battle brings in much money. The battle for Europe/title likely brings in more and the top 4/5 is certainly not a set "big four" like it used to be

 

[Sportbilly /Detroit Blade]

Hi guys, just asking for a couple of minutes of your time to complete a short survey. It's for my lad's uni dissertation and he's needing the input of as many fans as possible to get an idea of how the Premier League is working and what would make it fairer. Thanks in advance and good luck for the play-offs.

Could a salary cap be the answer to competitive imbalance within the English Premier League?

This survey aims to understand the reasoning behind the perceived competitive imbalance within the English Premier League and how this can be addressed in order to create a league with greater parity between teams. This specifically focuses on the idea of a salary cap and it's possible...

forms.gle

Filled in the survey.

A bit depressing as each time I fill one of these in, I seem to be going higher and higher up the age bracket !

 

[Silent Blade]

Afraid it is a losing battle for many years to come unless the top 6 join a breakaway.league

 

[loyalblade95]

Filled it in.

In an ideal world, I would like to see some sort of wage/salary cap in the PL, but it would involve a lot of trial and error to get it right, if they can get it right then go for it.

In an ideal world, a proper wage cap could potentially make for a more competitive PL, along with a few other rules.

Parachute yo-yo teams are their own issue when it comes to the championship, but what are the EFL leagues doing to make those leagues evenly competitive that the PL can't seem to do.

Even so, about half of the parachute teams don't often go back up anyway, some of those teams do go back up after their parachute payments have run out, but others don't go back up at all, Watford, Stoke, Norwich, WBA, Middlesbrough, Cardiff etc.

But if a wage cap was implemented properly, how long would it be before some of the PL owners started trying to increase the limit so they can offer higher wages to compete with any European giants that will offer higher wages to the better players.

 

[DI36O]

I used to be fully against this because it'd mean players leaving for overseas but I think we're even further ahead of competitor leagues financially so a lenient cap would probably not do much harm nowadays. Apart from your Ivan Toneys etc who are basically taking early retirement anyway. It would be a legal nightmare though as others have pointed out.

I wonder if the same applies to a general football-related spending cap as opposed to a salary specific cap? I.e. your total outgoings (excluding things like facility upgrades perhaps) cannot go above a £x per period. That possibly breaks a different law, I don't know. It would stop the nonsense of saying your annual income is a trillion because you sold the old corner flags to yourselves or your reserve keeper's away shirt is sponsored by a global megacorp who is also actually you.

Either way the problem is that the premier league is run by its members, the clubs who are currently in it, meaning nothing can be imposed from the top. You'd have to somehow convince them that this race to grow your brand worldwide might look good short term but in the medium and long term the product as a whole is not going to be as attractive.

 

[Aycliffe Blade]

Done. Depressing but just can't see any realistic way the current imbalances can be changed.

 

[nopigfansintown]

The success of the Premier League is due to the initial equal sharing of PL TV revenue. The equal shares have also meant that there's a democracy within that 20 team framework. The problem initially was faced by those beneath that initially.

What's begun to happen is the gradual expansion in European places has given those teams at the top (usually those already with a pre Premier League creationfinancial advantage) a further financial advantage with their European funds. If 50% of the Premier League get money from this you skew the competition.

There are compounding factors - it can't just be blamed on European competition. The Premier League itself awards prize money. If your goal is competition then awarding vast sums of money per league place is going to do the opposite. You've created a hegemonic list of clubs who are almost guaranteed to get this money cyclically.

Once promoted into your competition the new team has to counter the European money, the PL prize money, the superior sponsorship money and the superior squads and facilities that you probably already have. When you add in cat 1 academies abilities to filch your best players for a song, the rule changes that favour bigger, higher quality squads and the fixation of the media on these clubs the scale of the challenge is unbelievable.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

A basic minimum salary, topped up with performance related bonuses and a % of personal and club merchandise income. The players get well paid, the better ones get better paid and the clubs are run in a business like fashion.

 

[jt64]

Would it make it fairer? Maybe. Would it make the English clubs less competitive and reduce revenues across the board? Absolutely. This sort of thing might work in an American sport where for all intents and purposes their league is a monopoly on the professional game, but no player is going to sign a contract with any English team at (arbitrary limit) if they can get more at Dortmund, Barca, Saudi or wherever

 

[Teofilo Cubillas]

I remember speaking to a Liverpool fan (a lawyer and one of their Kop season ticket holders) when the Premiere League first appeared.
I suggested to him that the new league should be two leagues with four up and four down.
Immediately he said no.
Whenever I think back on that very brief conversation, I cannot help think that the Premiere League is just a better cash flow for the top six.

As is being suggested: the emergent scenario now is one where there is virtually no competition regarding promotion and relegation.

 

[Wincobank S9 Blade]

PL is like the mafia, only care about the big 6 an a couple more thrown in. To go up a stay up you need to win the infrastructure war (think Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford) plus a willing investor(s). Im hoping this new first team centre goes up quickly to enhance us. We share a City as well so have to maintain support and try to dominate to grow the club.

 

[247Blade]

Done
Hate Premier League matches, I really find them boring. Not interested really, or the European competitions.

 

[chesblade]

On TS this morning was talking to football finance bloke. Basically saying the 3 teams that go up don't really have a chance of staying there now they have changed psr rules unless some agreement with championship. So it's really a closed shop for anyone above 3rd bottom

 

[YES Blade]

It would need to be a spending cap which included transfer fees and not just player salaries/bonuses.

A hard spending cap just wouldn’t work, but I think a soft spending cap could be workable. Basically clubs can spend as much as they like but have to pay a “tax” on what they spend over the cap.

The “tax” money would be distributed to the clubs that don’t exceed the cap giving them the opportunity to be more competitive. For a club like us that could pay for the new training ground or maybe even rebuild the Kop.

 

[DifferentClass]

Absolutely.

Jimmy Hill had the wrong idea to abolish the maximum wage way back when.

 

[nopigfansintown]

The spending cap idea would have to be worldwide or at least European wide. It's against Premier League interests, the TV companies interests and the UK governments interests to have a cap in England. They sell the product worldwide. That product is utterly dependent on, generally speaking, having the best players in this country. If you undermine that you destroy the product they're selling and its status. The players then go abroad and the Premier League is no longer the top league. As a Blade I support it anyway, but Turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas.

The issue is that that level of expenditure is currently contrary to the very fundaments of a capitalist economy: to a large extent the worker's (footballers) are earning more than the employer (football club) is making. To break that cycle and run like a business most clubs would need to either stop getting the best players or have a spending cap come in.

There's a counter argument that revolves around the increased valuations of football clubs. It goes something like this: "football clubs in the Premiership League and Championship, generally speaking, lose huge amounts of money but the valuation of clubs has increased many fold and is increasing so rapidly that losses are compensated by this increase". It's interesting that FSG bought Liverpool for about 300 million and now own an asset valued at between ten to twenty times that. Despite that they support spending caps. I don't know of another entertainment industry that is run like football.

 

[Nosworthys Throw]

Just bring back two footed challenges, that should even things up a little bit

 

[bogo40]

They would likely circumnavigate a wage cap via "sponsorship deals" or bonus payments.

The wage cap should have come in about 30 odd years ago, I think that boat has sailed thanks to the creation of the Premier League.

This is exactly what would happen, anyway look at City, they have got around money caps, and will have the EPL tied up in court for years.