Will our team be able to win even if/when Weir goes?

[Gavlar]

So we are horrific at the mo no doubt about it. But if/when Weir gets the boot will the team suddenly turn into a team who can score goals and win? I'm sadly not convinced. Yes a fair few of the squad were there last season especially the defence who now cant keep clean sheets, so in theory we should at least be able to tighten up at the back. The players don't become bad players over night.

As for the midfield and attack, who knows? Baxter and King have proven goal scoring records at this level and higher, there's Miller to come back as well and Brandy at least look capable of doing something. But what if the next manager comes in and in 10 games time we are still turning out the same as now, what then?

 

[Damski]

Well this is what I was on about the other day. They aren't gonna click overnight if the manager goes. And yeah, if the next guy is just as bad, we'll be (even more of) a laughing stock.

 

[judge]

So we are horrific at the mo no doubt about it. But if/when Weir gets the boot will the team suddenly turn into a team who can score goals and win? I'm sadly not convinced. Yes a fair few of the squad were there last season especially the defence who now cant keep clean sheets, so in theory we should at least be able to tighten up at the back. The players don't become bad players over night.

As for the midfield and attack, who knows? Baxter and King have proven goal scoring records at this level and higher, there's Miller to come back as well and Brandy at least luck capable of doing something. But what if the next manager comes in and in 10 games time we are still turning out the same as now, what then?

lets get rid of this ridiculously bad manager first before we start on the next one

 

[Darren]

I did an analysis of our first team the other day. All of our first choice players except Hall and Baxter have played virtually all their careers at clubs plying their trade higher (and sometimes substantially higher) than the bottom half of the 3rd division. Hence they have proven they can play competently at a higher level than we currently are.

Which leaves only one person to blame for the mess we are in...

 

[raul]

You did and you didn't. They've all played at higher levels, but could that not be due to playing with better players than they are now leading to increased performance overall?

If we use Harry and George as the example, they've played at higher levels with team mates such as Squinny, Ched, Henderson etc so are components of a team they're lesser members of rather than being (arguably) our "stars" now.

We appear to have a squad of collective also rans. I'm with you on we should not be where we are, but when you look at the collective levels of desire, determination, spirit and downright personal pride, you can't simply peg all that on one man.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

You did and you didn't. They've all played at higher levels, but could that not be due to playing with better players than they are now leading to increased performance overall?

If we use Harry and George as the example, they've played at higher levels with team mates such as Squinny, Ched, Henderson etc so are components of a team they're lesser members of rather than being (arguably) our "stars" now.

We appear to have a squad of collective also rans. I'm with you on we should not be where we are, but when you look at the collective levels of desire, determination, spirit and downright personal pride, you can't simply peg all that on one man.

We need Limp Along Leslie! ... and Pongo Tate I reckon! Some great names in these teams!

LIMP ALONG LESLIE​

The following episode taken from The Wizard No. 1787 – May 14th 1960.
With half an hour left to play, the Rangers were losing by two goals to nil to Marchester City in the sixth round of the cup and all the brilliance of Leslie Tomson, the Rangers’ inside-left and captain, was not bringing any goals. The game was being played at the Rangers’ stadium in Darbury.

The City defence was so strong, their marking so keen, and their tackling so sure, that it looked as if the Rangers were as good as out of the cup.

The teams had lined up – Rangers – Blackwood; Wisden, Wallen; Garbutt, Monk, Nicholson; Tate, Tomson, Carter, Brownlee, Smith. MarchesterCity – Horniblow; Ogden, Fenner; Felton, Mannering, Lynchman; Hodge, Falcon, Judson, Major, Lee.

A City defender put the ball out of play near the halfway line. Leslie moved over for the throw-in. Due to a childhood accident, his left leg was shorter than his right, and he walked with a slight limp.

Tom Garbutt, the Rangers’ right-half, threw the ball to Leslie, who feinted to pass back to the wing-half. Then Leslie pivoted, and carried the ball upfield.

Pongo Tate strode in from the right-wing and Rusty Carter, the youngest centre-forward in the First Division, veered outwards. Leslie could hear Lynchman pounding along behind him.

He side-stepped, causing the City defender to slither past him, and then hooked the ball out to the left wing. The crowd roared as Eric Brownlee, the Rangers’ inside-left, gathered the ball and cut in. He tried a shot, but the ball cannoned away off a defender.

Play swung to the other end, where Lee raced down the City’s left-wing and slashed over a cross. Irwin Blackwood, the Rangers’ unorthodox goalkeeper, was already far out of his goal. He caught the ball so near the edge of the penalty-box that the referee glanced at the linesman, who was watching carefully to see if the goalkeeper had handled the ball outside his area.

The linesman made no signal, however, and Blackwood cleared upfield towards Leslie. Leslie was ten yards inside the City half and facing his own goal when the ball bounced beside him.

His left foot swung up and he kicked the ball high over his head. Horniblow, the City goalkeeper, ran out to collect the ball before it bounced. It didn’t look as if there was any danger in the floating lob, but suddenly Horniblow stopped dead. Then, frantically, he leapt to one side, his arms outstretched as the ball swerved late in its flight. The goalkeeper just managed to touch the ball, but he failed to stop it from curving into the net.

The City defenders were flabbergasted and the home crowd roared with delight. They had often seen Leslie put a terrific swerve on a ball, but they had never seen him do it with an overhead kick before. That goal rocked the City. To the thunder of the crowd the Rangers started to take command of the game.

The City tried to keep the ball away from Leslie. Major, the inside-left, joined Lynchman in marking the inside-right. As time went on, those two intercepted numerous passes intended for Leslie. Then Tom Garbutt managed to slip a pass through to Leslie. Major and Lynchman bore down on the inside-right.

The gasping spectators suddenly saw the ball flipped up from Leslie’s toe to his rising knee. It was his knee that then knocked the ball on to his forehead. Leslie nodded the ball between Major and Lynchman and brushed between them. Both charged after him, but with every step Leslie appeared to be changing direction in a manner that so bemused his pursuers that eventually they ran into each other. Fenner, the City left-back came tearing in at Leslie.

Leslie turned inwards, and then outwards, and somewhere in the baffling display of ball control, Fenner was left sitting on the grass. Now Leslie had only the goalkeeper to beat. Steadying himself, he crashed an unsavable shot low into the corner of the net. The Rangers’ supporters roared their applause for the brilliant solo goal.

The game the Rangers had looked like losing was now a game they could win. The City lashed in an attack straight from the kick-off. Judson, the centre-forward, had a shooting chance, but blazed the ball over the bar. A terrific roar went up at the sight of Clem Smith gathering the ball and steadying himself to shoot.

Leslie kept on moving towards the goal. Smith shot and, aiming to miss the goalkeeper, struck the far upright with the ball. As the leather flew out, Leslie dived and put it in the net with his head. A minute later the whistle went for full-time. Leslie’s brilliant hat-trick had put the Rangers into the semi-finals of the cup

 

[Darren]

You did and you didn't. They've all played at higher levels, but could that not be due to playing with better players than they are now leading to increased performance overall?

If we use Harry and George as the example, they've played at higher levels with team mates such as Squinny, Ched, Henderson etc so are components of a team they're lesser members of rather than being (arguably) our "stars" now.

We appear to have a squad of collective also rans. I'm with you on we should not be where we are, but when you look at the collective levels of desire, determination, spirit and downright personal pride, you can't simply peg all that on one man.

eh? By playing consistently at higher levels they have all played with players who can perform at that level. As they are doing now.

Harry and George didn't have Quinn, Evans and Henderson with them last season, yet were still part of the 2nd best defence in the division.

Your argument only makes any sense if you are saying that, despite virtually all of the new players having a track record that shows that they can perform better than bottom of D3, they are so poor that they are dragging down the likes of Maguire and Long.

Come on....

 

[botoble]

The answer to this post is YES

The team hasnt changed that much since last season...

A manager with an ounce of experience will get this team winning.

The end

 

[Ted Danson]

A manager with the motivational skills of Warnock would have us top of this shitty league with the players we currently have

 

[Revolution]

Deadbat said earlier in the season - possibly after the Bradford game - that the players are rubbish. I agree that many of them are. One major concern at that time was that we did not have any creative midfielders or any good strikers.

Weir brought in a number of players with no track record whatsover for scoring or creating goals at this level, which was just bizzare. I said pre-season that this team had about 40 goals in it - and Weir did nothing to address that pre-season. Nothing at all.

The more recent additions are better. King is a quality player. So is Baxter. Cuvilier is supposed to be though you can't tell. There are also some good defenders are the club already, and a good keeper.

In the right hands, it is not a team that should be relegated. But there are too many poor first teamers to make it a side that could be in the top 6 even with the best manager in the world.

I am hopeful that if Weir is replaced we will stay up. But that is the limit of our ambition with so many poor players.

 

[BladeFisher]

Well this is what I was on about the other day. They aren't gonna click overnight if the manager goes. And yeah, if the next guy is just as bad, we'll be (even more of) a laughing stock.

Well it's worked for Carlisle United!

First 6 games W0 D2 L4 pts2 pts/game 0.33 then sack Abbott next four W3 D1 L0 pts 10 ppg 2.5

 

[Revolution]

The answer to this post is YES

The team hasnt changed that much since last season...

And this is wrong. The top scoring players in a low scoring team (Robson, Blackman) are gone, and were replaced by a pile of non scoring crap. King is a step in the right direction though.

 

[Darren]

And this is wrong. The top scoring players in a low scoring team (Robson, Blackman) are gone, and were replaced by a pile of non scoring crap. King is a step in the right direction though.

Robson? He only scored 2 pens.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

eh? By playing consistently at higher levels they have all played with players who can perform at that level. As they are doing now.

Harry and George didn't have Quinn, Evans and Henderson with them last season, yet were still part of the 2nd best defence in the division.

Your argument only makes any sense if you are saying that, despite virtually all of the new players having a track record that shows that they can perform better than bottom of D3, they are so poor that they are dragging down the likes of Maguire and Long.

Come on....

I think you're playing the 'better than the bottom of D3' card a bit too generously there Dazzler.

I'll give you McMahon, Collins, Doyle (and latterly King) but Harry and George have spent their entire careers in the 3rd tier bar a couple of games and the likes of Williams, Hill, Porter and Westlake haven't achieved anything of any note outside of this Division.

It's always difficult to equate Scottish 'form' but we have Taylor, Murphy and Flynn who've shown little to make you believe that they're any better than this level. Add to that Baxter, Coady, Cuvelier, Brandy and McGinn of our regular starters and whilst they have a decent 'pedigree', they haven't actually achieved anything. Throw in the likes of McFadzean, McGinty, Ironside and you can't simply say that we have a team / squad who have consistently played at a higher level.

 

[Revolution]

Robson? He only scored 2 pens.

Sorry, Kitson not Robson

 

[Gavlar]

The answer to this post is YES

The team hasnt changed that much since last season...

A manager with an ounce of experience will get this team winning.

The end

I hope you're right and I don't have to quote you on that when we still struggle with a new manager

 

[Darren]

I think you're playing the 'better than the bottom of D3' card a bit too generously there Dazzler.

I'll give you McMahon, Collins, Doyle (and latterly King) but Harry and George have spent their entire careers in the 3rd tier bar a couple of games and the likes of Williams, Hill, Porter and Westlake haven't achieved anything of any note outside of this Division.

It's always difficult to equate Scottish 'form' but we have Taylor, Murphy and Flynn who've shown little to make you believe that they're any better than this level. Add to that Baxter, Coady, Cuvelier, Brandy and McGinn of our regular starters and whilst they have a decent 'pedigree', they haven't actually achieved anything. Throw in the likes of McFadzean, McGinty, Ironside and you can't simply say that we have a team / squad who have consistently played at a higher level.

For the millionth time, Harry and George have shown by their performances in 2011-13 that they are good 3rd tier players and the rest have more or less never performed at a lower level than top half of D3.

I'll give you the Scots, but none of them (apart from arguably Taylor) are regulars.

I'd also agree that some of our squad players have little of no pedigree, but we can comfortably put out a first XI which has never previously had any experience at playing lower than top half third division.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

For the millionth time, Harry and George have shown by their performances in 2011-13 that they are good 3rd tier players and the rest have more or less never performed at a lower level than top half of D3.

I'll give you the Scots, but none of them (apart from arguably Taylor) are regulars.

I'd also agree that some of our squad players have little of no pedigree, but we can comfortably put out a first XI which has never previously had any experience at playing lower than top half third division.

As I say, you're playing the 'lower half' card to try and prove a point. The fact is they are 3rd tier players, clearly better than bottom 3 but still 3rd tier players.

 

[Darren]

As I say, you're playing the 'lower half' card to try and prove a point. The fact is they are 3rd tier players, clearly better than bottom 3 but still 3rd tier players.

But that is my point. They are players that have shown by their record that they are better than one would expect in a struggling 3rd tier team. They may not be that much better, but they clearly are better.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

But that is my point. They are players that have shown by their record that they are better than one would expect in a struggling 3rd tier team. They may not be that much better, but they clearly are better.

You wouldn't expect us to be as far down as we are, can't argue with that but realistically, we shouldn't have expected us to be challenging for promotion either, new manager, another squad upheaval (25 plus players used already) etc etc.

This is one of the reasons why I think the Board are sticking with him for the moment and hoping. Another change whilst giving the 'boost' a new manager generally does, won't change the squads shortcomings, short term anyway. I think they're hoping we can somehow improve, get to January and bring in one or two 'game changers'. The problem is, I don't think anyone expected results to be as bad as they are, and their hand may be forced.

 

[Large Mendonca]

I seem to remember the last days of Bassett being dreadful. Along come Mr Kendall and in no time had us playing like Barcelona with a couple of astute additions, namely Mr Gordon Cowans........

 

[Darren]

You wouldn't expect us to be as far down as we are, can't argue with that but realistically, we shouldn't have expected us to be challenging for promotion either, new manager, another squad upheaval (25 plus players used already) etc etc.

This is one of the reasons why I think the Board are sticking with him for the moment and hoping. Another change whilst giving the 'boost' a new manager generally does, won't change the squads shortcomings, short term anyway. I think they're hoping we can somehow improve, get to January and bring in one or two 'game changers'. The problem is, I don't think anyone expected results to be as bad as they are, and their hand may be forced.

No-one would be calling for Weir's head if we were mid table. All the talk about rebuilding would then ring true. As I posted elsewhere, if Weir carries on at this rate, we will be 90% sure of relegation by January. We really can't risk it.

 

[Revolution]

You wouldn't expect us to be as far down as we are, can't argue with that but realistically, we shouldn't have expected us to be challenging for promotion either, new manager, another squad upheaval (25 plus players used already) etc etc.

This is one of the reasons why I think the Board are sticking with him for the moment and hoping. Another change whilst giving the 'boost' a new manager generally does, won't change the squads shortcomings, short term anyway. I think they're hoping we can somehow improve, get to January and bring in one or two 'game changers'. The problem is, I don't think anyone expected results to be as bad as they are, and their hand may be forced.

I remain of the view that the number one priority this season was to keep things as cheap as possible, on the basis that we had spent far more than anyone else the last two years and failed to go up, and as this year Wolves are certain to go up and we don't win playoffs it was felt unattractive to push the boat out for a promotion place. We would also have sold anyone who was any good, as was basically admitted at the fan forums.

It's not that we didn't want to go up - just that we weren't prepared to pay for it.

The problem with this was that the new signings we have made are on the whole poor players, and the manager is dreadful. This is not MLB or NFL. You cannot punt a season. They will end up spending more than last year to try to escape relegation at this rate.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

When Warnock took over in Dec 1999, we had lost 11 out of the first 21 matches and were 21st.
Suddenly we won the next four matches on the bounce and only lost 2 out of the next 16.
A good, proven, experienced manager can transform a team without making wholesale changes.

 

[botoble]

I hope you're right and I don't have to quote you on that when we still struggle with a new manager

Depends what you mean by struggle... League position won't be as high as it could be but that is going to be down to lack of confidence and current standing, however I recon with an average manager we would easily make top half...with weir its a relegation fight...

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

When Warnock took over in Dec 1999, we had lost 11 out of the first 21 matches and were 21st.
Suddenly we won the next four matches on the bounce and only lost 2 out of the next 16.
A good, proven, experienced manager can transform a team without making wholesale changes.

For every Warnock there's a Mickey Adams. Don't forget Bassett took us down from a similar position as well.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

The team hasnt changed that much since last season...

Really ?

Re the players, does Weir keep making them shoot wide or straight at the keeper ? This is a freak run in front of goal for any team in any division and it's not purely down to the manager.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Really ?

Re the players, does Weir keep making them shoot wide or straight at the keeper ? This is a freak run in front of goal for any team in any division and it's not purely down to the manager.

To add to the above, doubtless Weir has to carry much of the responsibility for the AMOUNT of chances created but I've just checked and in the 10 League games so far this season, of the 111 efforts on goal, we've managed a miserly 36 on target. I know stats such as these are misleading but that's down to the players.

 

[Ted Danson]

Really ?

Re the players, does Weir keep making them shoot wide or straight at the keeper ? This is a freak run in front of goal for any team in any division and it's not purely down to the manager.

yes he does, its his dire slow tactics that allow all the oppo players to get behind the ball and force us into areas where our only option is a long range shot where the keeper has it covered or to go for a very tight angle where we stand a good chance of missing. Its also his fault that they have such little confidence, he should be motivating them but his dower attitude is making them just give up. He is shite and it is his fault and Carsleys!

 

[botoble]

I do put it down to him yes...we arnt shooting from the best positions like we did under other managers, we don't seem as organised from corners and freekick as under other managers, we dont have as many clear cut chances..

this is down to formation and tactics...

I know...lets not change a thing, let things carry on the way they are, Jose baxter looked good at oldham, cuvelier looked alright at walsall, Taylor scored every week for falkirk, murphy looked good at motherwell but hey they are just apparently going through a quarter of a season bad spell we will clearly pick things up and start winning if we stick to the exact same one up front passing round at the back tactic...

Why do anything drastic its not like we are looking like going down or anything...